Winter tires or normal?

Mycroft H · 19-01-2015 12:08pm

Biglad wrote: »

Until that day you are prepared to make it up that little incline, you are in the right gear, have the momentum going, are positioned right on the road, and when have way up that big tractor or lorry appears out of no where and you have to hit the brakes...that's when the proverbial sh*t hits the fan and the wheels come off...no pun intended...

And if there's a layer of sheet of ice on the road, winters or no winter you are not stopping quick.

Biglad · 19-01-2015 12:11pm

stimpson wrote: »

I remember the big snow a couple of years ago. Coming up a mild incline (not a hill) on my way home and I passed 4 BMW's abandoned on the same stretch of road.

I have that experience where in Letterkenny, that same year, on a well know incline near the old Dunnes Stores, not only RWD vehicles but also FWD vehicles were traversing backwards or were abandoned. Drivers of all kinds including very experienced cab drivers, lorry drivers and even an ambulance driver stood watching, I made up it no problem with my SAAB 93 with Nokian winter tyres.

Biglad · 19-01-2015 12:13pm

Mycroft H wrote: »

And if there's a layer of sheet of ice on the road, winters or no winter you are not stopping quick.

Its not even about stopping quick, its about being able to slow down and take evasive action and having a certain level of control instead of becoming a passenger in your own vehicle...

YbFocus · 19-01-2015 12:15pm

Mycroft H wrote: »

Winter tyres won't save you from the laws of physics despite what people seem to think here.

That there mycroft is exactly the reason i don't bother with them

I'd love to see just how much more grip they give.
Like a proper experiment measuring g's in cornering and braking.
Just to see if they create a noticeable difference.

Until then I'll drive the only bmw that doesn't get stuck at all going by here.
She's like a MOAG

Anjobe · 19-01-2015 12:16pm

Biglad wrote: »

This could be an endless discussion but anyway. 'Getting around' is a very broad statement. Does this also means having to stop quite suddenly at a roundabout or junction on a wet, slushy or snowy roadsurface?

I am part of a running group and we met yesterday morning as usual at our training grounds. The road to the clubhouse is ever so slightly downhill. The parking area has melted snow that was frozen over night with some fresh hailstones. After our 12K run we all came back to the carpark and only 2 vehicles could just drive out. The rest were slipping and sliding all over the place...I'll let you guess which of these had their winters on.

You either see the benefit of winter tyres or you just don't want to see it. Sure many tyre fitters in Ireland would be happy to sell you just 2 winter tyres for the driven wheels only...

Every driver needs to be aware of the road conditions. On a slippery road surface you need to drive in such a way as minimise your risk of stopping suddenly. This is quite easy - you just brake earlier and more gently than normal, using engine braking as much as possible. Doing anything else is a driver error. I was also out and about on icy roads over the weekend - driving the untreated back roads certainly took a bit of care but neither I nor other drivers were having any difficulty with that.

I do understand the benefits of winter tyres, but as I have always been able to get around safely and without any difficulty without them, the benefit simply does not justify the cost.

Biglad · 19-01-2015 12:18pm

YbFocus wrote: »

That there mycroft is exactly the reason i don't bother with them

I'd love to see just how much more grip they give.
Like a proper experiment measuring g's in cornering and braking.
Just to see if they create a noticeable difference.

Until then I'll drive the only bmw that doesn't get stuck at all going by here.
She's like a MOAG

It's a pity you don't have youtube access apparently...it's absolutely brimming with examples and comparisons...and measuring G's? really?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=65UfKUS9-mQ

YbFocus · 19-01-2015 12:20pm

Biglad wrote: »

Until that day you are prepared to make it up that little incline, you are in the right gear, have the momentum going, are positioned right on the road, and when have way up that big tractor or lorry appears out of no where and you have to hit the brakes...that's when the proverbial sh*t hits the fan and the wheels come off...no pun intended...

I see what you mean, but only yesterday in the snow i practiced this.
I rolled it back about 2 foot into the verge onto non compacted snow and took off very gently.
Off we went again.
There really isn't a spot you can get out of on winter's that you can't on standards.

If your on sheet ice no tyre without spikes will make any difference.
The friction of Ice is far too low to allow a car to put that much force to the ground.

YbFocus · 19-01-2015 12:25pm

Biglad wrote: »

It's a pity you don't have youtube access apparently...it's absolutely brimming with examples and comparisons...and measuring G's? really?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=65UfKUS9-mQ

I want proper mathematical outcomes not some lad sprouting an opinion.
A measure of g's being developed in any direction will show how much more effort those tyres can put to the ground.
That is a simple undeniable proof.

If there was a big difference it may even make me join your brigade!

Biglad · 19-01-2015 12:25pm

YbFocus wrote: »

I see what you mean, but only yesterday in the snow i practiced this.
I rolled it back about 2 foot into the verge onto non compacted snow and took off very gently.
Off we went again.
There really isn't a spot you can get out of on winter's that you can't on standards.

If your on sheet ice no tyre without spikes will make any difference.
The friction of Ice is far too low to allow a car to put that much force to the ground.

I'm sorry but that is a complete nonsense statement...and if that is your actual opinion than I will move on and keep this discussion going with the rest following this thread...

micks_address · 19-01-2015 12:30pm

YbFocus wrote: »

I see what you mean, but only yesterday in the snow i practiced this.
I rolled it back about 2 foot into the verge onto non compacted snow and took off very gently.
Off we went again.
There really isn't a spot you can get out of on winter's that you can't on standards.

If your on sheet ice no tyre without spikes will make any difference.
The friction of Ice is far too low to allow a car to put that much force to the ground.

Id kind of disagree with this - at our house in sligo the entrance is a steep enough incline thats concreted that leads to some tarmac outside the back door... no car could get up it last week apart from my dads Opel Combi van which just had winter tyres fitted... he was so smug about it he was getting all my brothers and neighbours to try getting up the hill with their cars and they all failed... again not a very scientific example but at least proof that the winter tyres offer more grip on an icy/frozen stretch of concrete..

i've only had my tyres on a week but even driving around locally and on the m50 the last few days they do seem to 'stick' to the road better.. i dont know if thats placebo effect or not..

on a different note i was driving around the slip road from m1 to m50 today at 10am in the inside lane and the guy in the outside lane came swirving over to my lane... either he was alseep or maybe the road was slippy or maybe both? I was lucky to be able to avoid him... another fine example of you can take all the care in the world but there is no accounting for other drivers!

Cheers,
Mick

Biglad · 19-01-2015 12:38pm

I know most test are often commercially tinted but this one is quite interesting for the RWD fanatics on here and it was done on a sheet of ice...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GlYEMH10Z4s

YbFocus · 19-01-2015 12:45pm

Biglad wrote: »

I know most test are often commercially tinted but this one is quite interesting for the RWD fanatics on here and it was done on a sheet of ice...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GlYEMH10Z4s

I'll definitely give it a watch when finished work bl, don't be getting so annoyed we can all voice opinions here

Biglad · 19-01-2015 12:54pm

Anjobe wrote: »

Every driver needs to be aware of the road conditions. On a slippery road surface you need to drive in such a way as minimise your risk of stopping suddenly. This is quite easy - you just brake earlier and more gently than normal, using engine braking as much as possible. Doing anything else is a driver error. I was also out and about on icy roads over the weekend - driving the untreated back roads certainly took a bit of care but neither I nor other drivers were having any difficulty with that.

I do understand the benefits of winter tyres, but as I have always been able to get around safely and without any difficulty without them, the benefit simply does not justify the cost.

Hey if that works for you than so be it. At least you understand the benefits of winter tyres which is a big thing. It seems that a lot of people simply do not know the basic differences between summer and winter tyres which fuels silly arguments and statements.

Take care over the next couple of days if your are out and about! There's snow on the way :-)

Biglad · 19-01-2015 12:56pm

YbFocus wrote: »

I want proper mathematical outcomes not some lad sprouting an opinion.
A measure of g's being developed in any direction will show how much more effort those tyres can put to the ground.
That is a simple undeniable proof.

If there was a big difference it may even make me join your brigade!

Just view a hand full of the independent clips on youtube varying from driving on wet roads to snow and ice...

If you see one vehicle making it around a corner or being able to stop in halve the distance compared the the other do you still require the G-force data?

Biglad · 19-01-2015 12:58pm

YbFocus wrote: »

I'll definitely give it a watch when finished work bl, don't be getting so annoyed we can all voice opinions here

I haven't gotten annoyed yet, watch those clips and let me know what you think :-)

YbFocus · 19-01-2015 1:00pm

Biglad wrote: »

Just view a hand full of the independent clips on youtube varying from driving on wet roads to snow and ice...

If you see one vehicle making it around a corner or being able to stop in halve the distance compared the the other do you still require the G-force data?

God no obviously not, i just seen bits on YouTube before with lads spouting on.
I'll go looking tonight and look at the one you linked.
I still don't think It'd make the price worth it though as I've never ever had trouble anywhere.

I know many that do but when i drive their cars i find them fine. I think much of it is how they approach driving in bad conditions!

Biglad · 19-01-2015 1:23pm

YbFocus wrote: »

God no obviously not, i just seen bits on YouTube before with lads spouting on.
I'll go looking tonight and look at the one you linked.
I still don't think It'd make the price worth it though as I've never ever had trouble anywhere.

I know many that do but when i drive their cars i find them fine. I think much of it is how they approach driving in bad conditions!

I agree with knowing how to drive in wintry conditions is half the battle. But too often you are depending on other road users as they can push you in a situation you don't want to be in because of their actions.

HGV's often spin out on inclines as they cant keep up the momentum because of a slow driver in front of them etc.

A lot of road users are being 'extra cautious' and sometimes 'over cautious' and are crawling along which doesn't always help either.

I've been driving as part of me being in sales for over 25 years. Most of it in Holland, Germany, Ireland and Scotland. This doesn't necessarily make me a good driver but I'd like to say I've got some experience, including a lot of winter driving.

I came through the first snow of the year in my A6 with summer tyres as I had just sold my A4 with the winter tyres still on them. And although I managed, that was it, I managed. Still I was happy to collect the A6 last Saturday with 4 winter tyres fitted and the difference was instantly noticeable.

Tea 1000 · 19-01-2015 1:25pm

YbFocus wrote: »

I see what you mean, but only yesterday in the snow i practiced this.
I rolled it back about 2 foot into the verge onto non compacted snow and took off very gently.
Off we went again.
There really isn't a spot you can get out of on winter's that you can't on standards.

If your on sheet ice no tyre without spikes will make any difference.
The friction of Ice is far too low to allow a car to put that much force to the ground.

Completely disagree with this.
I think this was posted before: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mfuE00qdhLA
People on here keep saying things like "you can't change the laws of physics" when defending summer tyres. Well, winter tyres are better in cold conditions BECAUSE of physics!!
I'd say your 2.5 RWD coupe without TC is possibly an E36 is it ybFocus? I'm thinking you fare better than most BMW drivers in snow beacuse unlike modern stuff, your car isn't "over-tyred" for want of a better phrase. E90's with 17" wheels have 255 tyres on the rear. Those things have no bite in snow. Spreading the weight over an already low friction area is no help.
That's part of the reason why more modern cars would benefit even more with winters over summers.
But there is a big advantage, whether people want to justify the layout or not. Currently I don't have a set, but at some stage I'll probably invest in a spare set of wheels and shoe them with winters. The advantage is that you save wear on the summers when the winter set are on, so the net cost over a number of years isn't as great as people think. But it is a big outlay up front, so it's understandable why many resist.
I also have a garage to store them, so that's a plus for me too. Although you could buy one of those cheap plastic "sheds" and put it at the corner of a garden and put a set of wheels in there if you were stuck for space!

Zubeneschamali · 19-01-2015 1:29pm

YbFocus wrote: »

I still don't think It'd make the price worth it though as I've never ever had trouble anywhere.

You could make the same argument for buying the cheapest crap in a summer tyre: just adjust your driving to compensate for the reduced grip, slower cornering and longer braking distances, no need to buy expensive branded tyres with more grip and better performance in wet conditions.

But for some reason, nobody ever does make that argument here.

YbFocus · 19-01-2015 1:42pm

Tea 1000 wrote: »

Completely disagree with this.
I think this was posted before: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mfuE00qdhLA
People on here keep saying things like "you can't change the laws of physics" when defending summer tyres. Well, winter tyres are better in cold conditions BECAUSE of physics!!
I'd say your 2.5 RWD coupe without TC is possibly an E36 is it ybFocus? I'm thinking you fare better than most BMW drivers in snow beacuse unlike modern stuff, your car isn't "over-tyred" for want of a better phrase. E90's with 17" wheels have 255 tyres on the rear. Those things have no bite in snow. Spreading the weight over an already low friction area is no help.
That's part of the reason why more modern cars would benefit even more with winters over summers.
But there is a big advantage, whether people want to justify the layout or not. Currently I don't have a set, but at some stage I'll probably invest in a spare set of wheels and shoe them with winters. The advantage is that you save wear on the summers when the winter set are on, so the net cost over a number of years isn't as great as people think. But it is a big outlay up front, so it's understandable why many resist.
I also have a garage to store them, so that's a plus for me too. Although you could buy one of those cheap plastic "sheds" and put it at the corner of a garden and put a set of wheels in there if you were stuck for space!

Your fairly bang on

Yeah an E36 2.5!
195 section.

I would have thought the larger cross section would spread the weight and give some bit more drive though.

BigEejit · 19-01-2015 1:57pm

Contrary to popular belief, narrow tyres are better on snow. I remember seeing a nasty old Citroen 2CV sailing up the road a couple of years ago when we had bad snow...... i was watching various cars make it halfway up and start slowly sliding back and to the side and hopping off the kerb.

Anjobe · 19-01-2015 2:31pm

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

You could make the same argument for buying the cheapest crap in a summer tyre: just adjust your driving to compensate for the reduced grip, slower cornering and longer braking distances, no need to buy expensive branded tyres with more grip and better performance in wet conditions.

But for some reason, nobody ever does make that argument here.

The argument isn't quite the same. I suspect most people (who put any thought into it) choose a mid-range or premium tyre over a budget tyre because they are quieter, more comfortable, lower rolling resistance etc but probably mostly because better grip makes them feel that their car is nicer to drive and handles better. Saving a few quid on a budget tyre means compromising on the better handling etc every single time they get in the car, but not using winter tyres means compromising on that on just a few occasions each year.

stimpson · 19-01-2015 2:54pm

BigEejit wrote: »

Contrary to popular belief, narrow tyres are better on snow. I remember seeing a nasty old Citroen 2CV sailing up the road a couple of years ago when we had bad snow...... i was watching various cars make it halfway up and start slowly sliding back and to the side and hopping off the kerb.

Narrower section tyres put more pressure on the snow, compacting it more and therefore providing more grip.

micks_address · 19-01-2015 2:57pm

Anjobe wrote: »

The argument isn't quite the same. I suspect most people (who put any thought into it) choose a mid-range or premium tyre over a budget tyre because they are quieter, more comfortable, lower rolling resistance etc but probably mostly because better grip makes them feel that their car is nicer to drive and handles better. Saving a few quid on a budget tyre means compromising on the better handling etc every single time they get in the car, but not using winter tyres means compromising on that on just a few occasions each year.

Agree with this mostly apart from the last sentence...

Average temps in dublin..

You can see from October to March even into april average temps are below 11 degrees celsius

Source

http://www.worldweatheronline.com/Dublin-weather-averages/Dublin/IE.aspx

I reference 11 degrees as this test was done at 11 degrees on a wet track (posted earlier in thread)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Oi-o_njQW34

The would to me prove that winter tyres dont become 'dangerous' above 7 degrees and still show some benefits especially driving in wet weather

Cheers,
Mick

Tea 1000 · 19-01-2015 3:23pm

YbFocus wrote: »

Your fairly bang on
Yeah an E36 2.5!
195 section.

I would have thought the larger cross section would spread the weight and give some bit more drive though.

Spreading weight is a good thing on boggy ground where you're likely to sink, but on low traction surfaces it's worse. I remember having a summer job where plenty of artics were in and out with loads, and one fairly steep hill with gravel on it was always catching out any trucks with twin axels rather than the single ones, which had no bother.
Tyres are too wide now really. I was admiring an early 90's Porsche 911 recently which had narrower tyres than many modern boring diesel saloons!

Biglad · 19-01-2015 3:45pm

An added bonus to me is the fact that the winter tyres iron out the smallest little bumps etc caused by poor roadsurfaces etc especially up here in the North West :-) makes my A6 even more comfy

CiniO · 19-01-2015 6:09pm

YbFocus wrote: »

That there mycroft is exactly the reason i don't bother with them

I'd love to see just how much more grip they give.
Like a proper experiment measuring g's in cornering and braking.
Just to see if they create a noticeable difference.

Until then I'll drive the only bmw that doesn't get stuck at all going by here.
She's like a MOAG

I would love to see such experiment as well.
But my experience seem to show, that their real advantage can be seen only on snow and slush. In that conditions they make tremendous difference - as I pointed out before. On road covered with snow few days ago, I was able to drive about 30km/h with my car on summer tyres, and in the other car, keeping about the same level of safety, I could do 80km/h. IMO that's a major difference.

On ice difference would be much smaller, and on dry and wet road at low temperatures (above 0) I'd tend to believe, summer tyres are better, in contrast to what tyre industry marketing campain tells us that below 7 degrees winters are better.

Even further, at high temps like 15 degrees and above, I think winter tyres become really dangerously slippery.

That's my observations, and I would really love to see some tests with accelerometer as you said to see it they would confirm my observations.

CiniO · 19-01-2015 6:13pm

Biglad wrote: »

I sorry but I just can't conclude anything else but you having a set of very poor winter tyres.

I have Debica Frigo HP at the moment.
Fairly good tyres, but indeed they are known for being better in snow and ice, and not as good on wet.

But over last 16 years, I've used at least 10 different sets of different winter tyres of different class, from midrange to premium brands, and I really know what I'm saying.

To state that your summers were better at 3c goes in against very research and testing ever done on winter tyres as well as my experience.

The problem with that is that this testing and research is done by tyre industry which has business in selling as many tyres as they can.
I would love to see some independent tests like YbFocus proposed with accelerometer.

Biglad · 19-01-2015 7:19pm

CiniO wrote: »

I have Debica Frigo HP at the moment.
Fairly good tyres, but indeed they are known for being better in snow and ice, and not as good on wet.

But over last 16 years, I've used at least 10 different sets of different winter tyres of different class, from midrange to premium brands, and I really know what I'm saying.

The problem with that is that this testing and research is done by tyre industry which has business in selling as many tyres as they can.
I would love to see some independent tests like YbFocus proposed with accelerometer.

There are loads of videos on the web where winter tyres are tested by independent institutes, universities etc on wet roads, snow and ice. I've even posted up a video earlier today which shows three identical vehicles taking of on a sheet of ice showing the differences. Why on earth would you still want to see an accellerometer test? If your summer tyres perform as well as your winter tyres at 3c you have a bad set of winter tyres, simple.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GlYEMH10Z4s

Stating that summer tyres are better in wet road conditions in temperatures just above 0 is rather weird if you understand the typical differences between summer and winter tyres, and for somebody with so much experience (your words) its a really strange statement.
Summer tyres are about having as much rubber in contact with the tarmac whilst winter tyres allow for wider grooves etc to allow for snow to get in there to be able to help them 'stick' to the snow you are driving on or to help dispense of surface water in wet conditions etc...

The tyres you have do actually get a very bad review for traction on wet roads...why did you buy them?

CiniO · 19-01-2015 7:49pm

Biglad wrote: »

There are loads of videos on the web where winter tyres are tested by independent institutes, universities etc on wet roads, snow and ice. I've even posted up a video earlier today which shows three identical vehicles taking of on a sheet of ice showing the differences. Why on earth would you still want to see an accellerometer test?

Because I don't believe in most of those test.
They are about the same worth as f.e. such advert.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lrMD_z_FnNk
Dirt just disappearing instantly - miracle.

I would like to see the test, because I believe that most stuff you see on youtube and TV is just sponsored by tyre industry.

If your summer tyres perform as well as your winter tyres at 3c you have a bad set of winter tyres, simple.

I told it was not just one set of tyres, but 16 years of my observations on various setups in various conditions.

Stating that summer tyres are better in wet road conditions in temperatures just above 0 is rather weird if you understand the typical differences between summer and winter tyres, and for somebody with so much experience (your words) its a really strange statement.
Summer tyres are about having as much rubber in contact with the tarmac whilst winter tyres allow for wider grooves etc to allow for snow to get in there to be able to help them 'stick' to the snow you are driving on or to help dispense of surface water in wet conditions etc...

I absolutely agree with the snow. I repeated it here many times that winter tyres make tremendous difference on snow, and for snow driving they are pretty much a necessity.
But in wet conditions, my observations seem to confirm that summer tyres are better.
In the end tread grooves in summer tyres are designed to dispense water, while winter tyres tread is designed to stick to the snow and ice.
Why would winter be better on wet roads?

Winter tires or normal?

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