Winter tires or normal?

whomitconcerns

Larbre34 wrote: »

Nothing wrong with trying to advise people not to be sucked in.

I give up.....

tossy

whomitconcerns wrote: »

I give up.....

I think people are getting sucked into winter tyres? Just don't stand too close.

whomitconcerns

i have winter tyres...700 cost written off over a probably 3 years and the saved tyre wear on my summer tyres..

100% grip when I need it in the winter, less skids, less thinking about ice and frost..but each to their own..

Anjobe

whomitconcerns wrote: »

ahh.....please go do some reading on the topic...has been discussed argued and rejected so many times......Need depends on circumstances....benefits..there is no doubt of them

It is a perfectly valid point of view, but while it may have been rejected by some winter tyre proponents, it has not been refuted in this or other winter tyre threads on the forum.

whomitconcerns wrote: »

i have winter tyres...700 cost written off over a probably 3 years and the saved tyre wear on my summer tyres..

100% grip when I need it in the winter, less skids, less thinking about ice and frost..but each to their own..

100% grip...really? If you actually believe this then it could get you into serious trouble.

To get a definitive answer about the advantage of winter tyres we need some statistics - how many accidents are caused by people losing control on standard tyres in winter conditions, and how many are caused by people losing control in winter conditions because they think they are invulnerable on their magic tyres? Unfortunately we don't have those statistics so any argument is just opinion and speculation. I don't deny the better performance of winter tyres in cold conditions but my own experience of driving through Irish and UK winters is that it is possible to to drive safely on standard tyres in all but the most exceptional of conditions.

Zubeneschamali

Larbre34 wrote: »

AWhat did we do for years before we had them?

Fail to get to work/school.

Get towed out of the ditch.

Pay hundreds to fix bumpers/paint/suspension after low-speed shunts sliding around the place.

Walk home.

Zubeneschamali

Anjobe wrote: »

it is possible to to drive safely on standard tyres in all but the most exceptional of conditions.

Do you apply the same logic to summer tyres, and buy triangular ling-longs for €30 a corner?

After all, if you drive around like a granny you'll probably be OK, even on ditchfinders. Why spend more?

Tea 1000

Larbre34 wrote: »

What did we do for years before we had them?

Sure you could say the same about seat belts.

Sheldons Brain

Larbre34 wrote:

What did we do for years before we had them?

That argument lacks traction.

Anjobe

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Do you apply the same logic to summer tyres, and buy triangular ling-longs for €30 a corner?

It is empirical evidence, no logic required, please try to keep up.

To answer the question no (I always buy round ones, haha), but my choice of tyres is irrelevant to this discussion - do you only ever fit the very best, most expensive tyres available, or do you make a judgement call on which are good enough for you?

I understand the benefit of winter tyres and I have no axe to grind with those who chose to fit them. I cannot extend that to argue that winter tyres are necessary in Ireland though - cars do not slide off the road all over the place through the winter months - and I do object to anyone who suggests that winter tyres are not necessary being treated like an idiot.

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

After all, if you drive around like a granny you'll probably be OK, even on ditchfinders. Why spend more?

Driving safely most definitely does not equate with "driving like a granny". I presume you are using that term in a pejorative way (so I answered as such), even though many grannys are perfectly safe drivers.

I would think that budget tyres are quite adequate for many drivers of underpowered fwd econoboxes (i.e. the majority in this country) - I prefer a better tyre myself but before denigrating them as ditchfinders I would like to see some some actual evidence of them contributing to accidents.

tossy

Anjobe wrote: »

but my choice of tyres is irrelevant to this discussion -

I hope the irony of that statement is not lost on you

Zubeneschamali

Anjobe wrote: »

I understand the benefit of winter tyres and I have no axe to grind with those who chose to fit them. I cannot extend that to argue that winter tyres are necessary

Nobody says they are necessary. Premium summer tyres are not necessary. Are winters better than summer tyres in an Irish winter? Unquestionably.

Do you care enough to pay for them? Judgement call. But anyone who pays for premium summer tyres is fooling themselves driving on them in winter.

murphyebass

Where do people store the 4 tyres for the 10 months of the year that they dont need them??

Personally I live in a 3 bed semi with a tiny back garden and a shed that'd just about fit the lawnmower so this idea of switching tyres is just not possible.

If I lived in the back arse of nowhere with an acre of a garden which please god some day I will then it becomes an option but theres just no room for this.

edit... also I did originally live in the back end of beyond and in the '80's my father would have driven us to school up the mountain in a car that had no traction control, no abs and well no anything. Deep snow, ice etc.. we always got to school.

I suppose the point I'm making is surely driving safely is enough for the average Irish driver considering we have winter/cold conditions for only a very small percentage of a calander year.

creedp

murphyebass wrote: »

edit... also I did originally live in the back end of beyond and in the '80's my father would have driven us to school up the mountain in a car that had no traction control, no abs and well no anything. Deep snow, ice etc.. we always got to school.

I suppose the point I'm making is surely driving safely is enough for the average Irish driver considering we have winter/cold conditions for only a very small percentage of a calander year.

Does your current car have traction control or abs? Surely there not necessary?

murphyebass

creedp wrote: »

Does your current car have traction control or abs? Surely there not necessary?

I think you missed the point. I'm just saying that a car back in the day didnt even have those yet my father and many others I'm sure adapted to the conditions and made it to where they needed to get to.

I'm not giving out about winter tyres. If someone wants to use them go ahead. I'm just saying I'd have nowhere to store them for the 10 months I dont need them on the car and I believe that I can adapt my driving style to suit the conditions. Again just my view, not trying to deter people from winter tyres.

Zubeneschamali

murphyebass wrote: »

I'm just saying that a car back in the day didnt even have those yet my father and many others I'm sure adapted to the conditions and made it to where they needed to get to.

Actually, a lot more of them crashed and died in the 80s.

About 500 a year vs. todays 200. We have moved on.

Anjobe

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Nobody says they are necessary

Then why does every poster who suggests that winter tyres are not needed here get jumped on?

murphyebass

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Actually, a lot more of them crashed and died in the 80s.

About 500 a year vs. todays 200. We have moved on.

Of course more people died in the 80's on the road than today.

Unless you have a stat to show how many of those died in the 80's in the on average 2/3 month period we get anything resembling winter weather I think your point falls flat.

Theres been way to many variables other than a bit of ice to make any such link.

Anjobe

tossy wrote: »

I hope the irony of that statement is not lost on you

Blackadder: Baldrick, have you no idea what "irony" is?
Baldrick: Yes, it's like "goldy" and "bronzy" only it's made out of iron.

There is no irony in my statement. My own choice of tyres is irrelevant to other peoples choice. I am not arguing in favour of or against winter tyres, I am arguing against the attitude that "winter tyres are better and you would be stupid not to fit them", which appears to be the prevailing viewpoint here.

A number of people have made very reasonable points that they feel winter tyres are not worth the cost/hassle etc, and have been treated as idiots even though their arguments have not been refuted.

stimpson

Anjobe wrote: »

Blackadder: Baldrick, have you no idea what "irony" is?
Baldrick: Yes, it's like "goldy" and "bronzy" only it's made out of iron.

There is no irony in my statement. My own choice of tyres is irrelevant to other peoples choice. I am not arguing in favour of or against winter tyres, I am arguing against the attitude that winter tyres are better and you would be stupid not to fit them, which appears to be the prevailing viewpoint here.

A number of people have made very reasonable points that they feel winter tyres are not worth the cost/hassle etc, and have been treated as idiots even though their arguments have not been refuted.

They are better - you were looking for evidence, well here you go:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ncga6UxlHM

ADAC are the German equivalent of the AA.

There is little marginal cost. You can only wear one set at a time, so the only real cost is a set of wheels. IF you think swapping wheels twice a year is hassle, then maybe you should take the bus.

I've got winters on the family car and brand new premium summers on my daily commute and the difference is night and day at the moment, especially in the wet.

murphyebass

stimpson wrote: »

They are better - you were looking for evidence, well here you go:

ADAC are the German equivalent of the AA.

There is little marginal cost. You can only wear one set at a time, so the only real cost is a set of wheels. IF you think swapping wheels twice a year is hassle, then maybe you should take the bus.

I've got winters on the family car and brand new premium summers on my daily commute and the difference is night and day at the moment, especially in the wet.

I and others I'm sure arent doubting that they are safer but its the minimal amount of time they get used and the storage that are the problems.

The arguement used here and elsewhere is that they'll stop you ending up in a ditch. Fair enough. If you feel you need them to keep you on the road during our winter months good luck to you. Personally I'll reduce speed etc and take my chances.

Again if someone wants to use them grand but really I cant see how they're a justifiable purchase for the bulk of Irish drivers.

Lastly I'll ask as it hasnt been answered. What about the storage for the other 10 months approx that you will not be using them???

Anjobe

stimpson wrote: »

IF you think swapping wheels twice a year is hassle, then maybe you should take the bus.

And once again, rather than actually deal with the argument, the response from the winter tyre brigade is arrogant and abusive.

Do buses have winter tyres fitted, you're not suggesting I put myself at risk are you?

stimpson

murphyebass wrote: »

I and others I'm sure arent doubting that they are safer but its the minimal amount of time they get used and the storage that are the problems.

The arguement used here and elsewhere is that they'll stop you ending up in a ditch. Fair enough. If you feel you need them to keep you on the road during our winter months good luck to you. Personally I'll reduce speed etc and take my chances.

Again if someone wants to use them grand but really I cant see how they're a justifiable purchase for the bulk of Irish drivers.

Lastly I'll ask as it hasnt been answered. What about the storage for the other 10 months approx that you will not be using them???

They are more effective when the road surface is below 8 degrees. As I have pointed out before, the daily maximum temps reported by Met Eireann are usually in the early afternoon. At rush hour road temps are considerably lower. And I posted a graphic earlier in this thread showing average temps in Ireland are below 8 degrees for 4 months of the year.

I don't feel I need them, but I like grip. Who doesn't like grip? I don't buy cheap summer tyres, so why should I compromise in winter?

And I store them in my yard, stacked on top of each other and covered.

stimpson

Anjobe wrote: »

And once again, rather than actually deal with the argument, the response from the winter tyre brigade is arrogant and abusive.

Do buses have winter tyres fitted, you're not suggesting I put myself at risk are you?

I didn't mean to be abusive, but to suggest that changing tyres twice a year is a hassle is a bit ridiculous. Do you rotate your tyres?

So how about you address the points I made then?

murphyebass

stimpson wrote: »

They are more effective when the road surface is below 8 degrees. As I have pointed out before, the daily maximum temps reported by Met Eireann are usually in the early afternoon. At rush hour road temps are considerably lower. And I posted a graphic earlier in this thread showing average temps in Ireland are below 8 degrees for 4 months of the year.

I don't feel I need them, but I like grip. Who doesn't like grip? I don't buy cheap summer tyres, so why should I compromise in winter?

And I store them in my yard, stacked on top of each other and covered.

If that stat of 4 months is true I'd say its close to the 8 degrees meaning that its borderline I would suggest for a probably up to 2 months of that. We tend to have wet winters and cold for 2/3 months of the year.

As for you liking grip. I dont think anyone doesnt.

As I've said its justifying the spend, justifying the changing of tyres as its not going to be once or twice as our winters are incredibly variable and as I've mentioned storage.

You say you stack them in your yard. If I wanted to put 4 tyres out in the yard my missus would have a fit. And rightly so tbh they'd look rediculous in a tiny garden which a lot of people have.

Also surely that cant be a good location to be storing tyres. It has no ill effects on the tyres by leaving them out in all conditions in a pile in your yard for 9/10 months of the year??

Again I've no issue with you or others using them. I cant see how its a justifiable purchase for the bulk of our population though.

Anjobe

stimpson wrote: »

So how about you address the points I made then?

I never argued that winter tyres do not perform better in our winter conditions, so the video, although interesting, was not relevant.

As to suggesting that winter tyres are like night and day compared to standards at the moment, I really don't know what to do with that. Personally I doubt it, as don't feel any real lack of grip driving around in my own car. Other winter tyre users have also suggested that maybe you won't feel the difference unless you have to emergency stop etc, which kind of contradicts what you are saying too.

The real point is that there are thousands of people out there driving through the winter on standard tyres who are not having accidents or skidding all over the place. This is the argument that has not been addressed - why should someone go to the bother of fitting winters if they do not find any problem with their normal tyres. There is also the expense too, in spite of what many have said winter tyres are not free. There is a large upfront expense for a set of tyres and also for a set of rims if you don't want to go to a tyre fitters and pay to have them changed twice a year, even if you won't then end up paying more for tyres in the long run.

To refute this argument you need to prove that the risk of accident is significantly increased in the winter months if winter tyres are not fitted but I doubt that the statistics you would need to do that are available. Until they are, this is an argument based opinion, and everyone should be entitled to their own opinion without being ridiculed or patronised for it.

stimpson

murphyebass wrote: »

If that stat of 4 months is true I'd say its close to the 8 degrees meaning that its borderline I would suggest for a probably up to 2 months of that. We tend to have wet winters and cold for 2/3 months of the year.

But that's the average temp for the day. If you are commuting at rush hour, the road temp will be lower.

As for you liking grip. I dont think anyone doesnt.

As I've said its justifying the spend, justifying the changing of tyres as its not going to be once or twice as our winters are incredibly variable and as I've mentioned storage.

As I said, the extra spend is the cost of the wheels. You could pick up second hand steelies for pennies.

You say you stack them in your yard. If I wanted to put 4 tyres out in the yard my missus would have a fit. And rightly so tbh they'd look rediculous in a tiny garden which a lot of people have.

My garden is bigger and my missus is easy going.

Also surely that cant be a good location to be storing tyres. It has no ill effects on the tyres by leaving them out in all conditions in a pile in your yard for 9/10 months of the year??

They are designed to operate outdoors. They have less harsh conditions in storage than they would on the car.

creedp

murphyebass wrote: »

I think you missed the point. I'm just saying that a car back in the day didnt even have those yet my father and many others I'm sure adapted to the conditions and made it to where they needed to get to.

I'm not giving out about winter tyres. If someone wants to use them go ahead. I'm just saying I'd have nowhere to store them for the 10 months I dont need them on the car and I believe that I can adapt my driving style to suit the conditions. Again just my view, not trying to deter people from winter tyres.

Reasonable point and of course the vast majority of people in Ireland can do without winter tyres. Difficult to understand why so many people get so exercised when others choose to use them. No wonder 4x4 drivers attract such ire .. at least you can remove winter tyres when the winter is over.

stimpson

Anjobe wrote: »

I never argued that winter tyres do not perform better in our winter conditions, .

Anjobe wrote: »

I am arguing against the attitude that winter tyres are better

<insert irony joke>

creedp

murphyebass wrote: »

Lastly I'll ask as it hasnt been answered. What about the storage for the other 10 months approx that you will not be using them???

No problem just stick them in the garage .. if you don't have a garage and have nowhere to store them then just don't get them.

murphyebass

stimpson wrote: »

They are designed to operate outdoors. They have less harsh conditions in storage than they would on the car.

I get that but surely they're not designed to be stacked on top of each other in the conditions for long periods.

Also when they're in those conditions they're rolling on the road and being regularly inflated, cared for etc..

In fairness though I'm no expert, if its fine to do so be it. Just strikes me as a not ideal.

Kinda like when you see a car off the road for ages and the tyres are flat and the rubber goes all shabby.