Winter tires or normal?

CiniO

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Again the word "needed". You don't "need" good tyres, or seatbelts, or ABS, or crumple zones.

Well for driving in snow, I'd easily use the word "need" for winter tyres. Without them you can hardly call it driving...

Winter tyres are hugely better than summer on snow

True.

and ice,

Bit less true.
On ice both are crap unless they have studs in them.
But yes - most likely winters are bit better on ice than summers.

but they are a good bit better even without snow, whenever the road temperature is less than 7 centigrade.

I said it many times here, and I'll repeat it again.
7 degrees seem to be just a marketing trick which is meant to convince the unconvinced.
In my experience, on dry and wet tarmac roads, summer tyres are better than winter tyres up to much lower temperatures. I can't come up with exact figure, but at 5 degrees, I'd definitely prefer to drive on summer tyres than winter ones.
At minus 10 it would be winter tyres, even on dry roads - for the reason mentioned - rubber doesn't get that hard.
At +15 degrees though, IMO winter tyres are completely lethal.

Do temperatures get that low in winter in Ireland? Yes, roughly once a day, and all night.

I'd ask the other way - do temperature get higher in Ireland in winter?
Of course they do.
Over last 2 weeks, I've driven on up to 12 - 13 degrees many times. And in those conditions my winter tyres provided very very little grip.
As I said at 5 degrees, I'd still prefer summer tyres than winter.
Possibly only below zero winter tyres would be better than summer tyres on dry roads.

wonski

George Dalton wrote: »

Winter tyres are usually called something which gives the game away.

EG
Dunlop Wintersport
Pirelli Snowcontrol
Vredestein Snowtrac
Etc

Also there will be a snow symbol on the sidewall:

M+S:

What are “M+S” tyres?

“M+S” tyres, or Mud and Snow tyres, have been specially designed to improve your car’s performance in mud and fresh or melting snow. “M+S” relates to the tyre’s tread design which generally has solid grooves and/or the tread blocks are spaced further apart than those on standard tyres. Some “M+S” tyres are also all-season tyres, suitable for all year round, however their performance is not as high as designated summer tyres in hot weather or Cold Weather tyres in cold weather. Not all Mud and Snow tyres have been tested as Cold Weather tyres. On the other hand, all Cold Weather tyres carry the M+S mark.

http://www.michelin.ie/tyres/learn-share/buying-guide/which-tyres-are-right-for-me-this-winter

Now they call them Cold Weather tyres, but some of them are good for snow, and some for cold weather. Not all have been tested in both conditions

It is only a matter of time when we get those "Global Warming All Weather Ready" tyres:D

Biglad

Winter tyres all the way, and 4 of them not just 2 on the driven wheels.

600 for my set fitted, get 4 years out of them. That's 150 a year plus 80 a year for getting them swapped. Have yet to read a proper valid argument on here against them.

They are much better in the wet including standing water etc. Our roads are desperate and when you hit a large area with standing water at 100 KMH you better have your winter tyres on.

Biglad

Anjobe wrote: »

Is it perhaps a little colder in Germany during the winter?

Not relevant as most accidents happen when temperatures are around freezing, not when its minus twenty. The harderbtHe frost the dryer the roads become...

Biglad

CiniO wrote: »

Well winter tyres are needed when there is snow or sleet on the roads.
Question is how often it happens in Ireland.

That's the wrong impression unfortunately supported by most people in Ireland.

CiniO

Biglad wrote: »

That's the wrong impression unfortunately supported by most people in Ireland.

It's not impression, but my own experience.
And believe I do have a good bit experience, as I'm regular used of winter tyres since I ever started driving 16 years ago.

Sample conditions - 3 degrees, wet road...
In such conditions, in my experience, you will get better grip on summer tyres than winter tyres (or similar class - to avoid comparing summer Triangles to winter Michelins).

At 15 degrees on dry road, IMO most winter tyres are lethal.

Anjobe

Biglad wrote: »

Not relevant as most accidents happen when temperatures are around freezing, not when its minus twenty. The harderbtHe frost the dryer the roads become...

Opinion or fact? Also seems to contradict what others have said here in support of winter tires.

Anjobe

Biglad wrote: »

600 for my set fitted, get 4 years out of them. That's 150 a year plus 80 a year for getting them swapped. Have yet to read a proper valid argument on here against them.

What benefit have you had in return for that outlay?

micks_address

I don't think anyone can justify that winter tyres are a requirement in Ireland. I picked up my set relatively cheap off someone who had only used them for one winter before changing cars and not needed them any more.

Living in Dublin I can probably get away without them. Most mornings I leave the house around 630 and for nearly all the winter months temp is well below 10 degrees

I know yesterday our estate was white with frost and I stopped immediately braking at the top of the road.. With my standard Michelins the car would definitely have slide a bit.. Ok not very scientific and wasn't a very risky scenario anyway.

If they provide a safety advantage at temps below 11 degrees and in wet weather and if you feel like that's worth your money then where's the harm?

Videos like this certainly suggest they do

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Oi-o_njQW34

I don't get the anger towards using them.

Each to their own as they say.

Cheers
Mick

stimpson

CiniO wrote: »

It's not impression, but my own experience.
And believe I do have a good bit experience, as I'm regular used of winter tyres since I ever started driving 16 years ago.

Sample conditions - 3 degrees, wet road...
In such conditions, in my experience, you will get better grip on summer tyres than winter tyres (or similar class - to avoid comparing summer Triangles to winter Michelins).

At 15 degrees on dry road, IMO most winter tyres are lethal.

I'm wondering if your winters are worn or incorrectly inflated. I was out today on the winters and tried to get them to break away on a wet roundabout at 5 degrees. I couldn't do it.

CiniO

stimpson wrote: »

I'm wondering if your winters are worn or incorrectly inflated.

No, they are correctly inflated, and have about 7mm tread left.

I was out today on the winters and tried to get them to break away on a wet roundabout at 5 degrees. I couldn't do it.

Would you break away summer tyres in the same conditions you reckon?

stimpson

CiniO wrote: »

No, they are correctly inflated, and have about 7mm tread left.


Would you break away summer tyres in the same conditions you reckon?

I have new Dunlop BluResponse Sport on the other car and I can get them to break away on a wet roundabout. My winters are 2 year old Falkens and have decent thread.

CiniO

stimpson wrote: »

I have new Dunlop BluResponse Sport on the other car and I can get them to break away on a wet roundabout. My winters are 2 year old Falkens and have decent thread.

So that's your experience.
Mine is opposite.

Biglad

CiniO wrote: »

It's not impression, but my own experience.
And believe I do have a good bit experience, as I'm regular used of winter tyres since I ever started driving 16 years ago.

Sample conditions - 3 degrees, wet road...
In such conditions, in my experience, you will get better grip on summer tyres than winter tyres (or similar class - to avoid comparing summer Triangles to winter Michelins).

At 15 degrees on dry road, IMO most winter tyres are lethal.

I sorry but I just can't conclude anything else but you having a set of very poor winter tyres. To state that your summers were better at 3c goes in against very research and testing ever done on winter tyres as well as my experience.

Biglad

Anjobe wrote: »

What benefit have you had in return for that outlay?

Being able to safely go to where I need to go no matter what the winter throws at me. I travel a lot around Ireland and Scotland in all weather conditions. I also have done previously in Holland and Germany.

Supergurrier

Is one local corner near me that is always lethal.

Vredistein Ultracs even in 5th gear doing 15mph (Car has alot of torque) still let car out of shape.

Biglad

Anjobe wrote: »

Opinion or fact? Also seems to contradict what others have said here in support of winter tires.

I've experienced many mild winters back in Holland, very similar as we have in Ireland, as well as severe winters with temperatures down as far as 23 below. When it gets very cold like that it's mostly unde clear skies in the low lands or after the country side is covered in snow. Roads at that stage freeze 'dry' although freezing fog can occur.

Winter tyres are still the better option of course even in dry roads as at those temperatures summer tyres are near solid.

Most accidents happen with sudden snow fall, when drivers aren't prepared. Most snowfall in Holland would occur at temperatures varying from +2c to -3c. Especially during the transition from mild to colder weather or vice versa.

Biglad

micks_address wrote: »

I don't think anyone can justify that winter tyres are a requirement in Ireland. I picked up my set relatively cheap off someone who had only used them for one winter before changing cars and not needed them any more.

Living in Dublin I can probably get away without them. Most mornings I leave the house around 630 and for nearly all the winter months temp is well below 10 degrees

I know yesterday our estate was white with frost and I stopped immediately braking at the top of the road.. With my standard Michelins the car would definitely have slide a bit.. Ok not very scientific and wasn't a very risky scenario anyway.

If they provide a safety advantage at temps below 11 degrees and in wet weather and if you feel like that's worth your money then where's the harm?

Videos like this certainly suggest they do

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Oi-o_njQW34

I don't get the anger towards using them.

Each to their own as they say.



Cheers
Mick

I agree with nearly all the above. This is not about justifying but about common sense. Youtube is full of videos by independents showing the major difference between summer and winter tyres during wintry conditions. I also do not understand the anger against using them.

Next there will be somebody saying they don't need winter tyres because they have 4WD...

dgt

Never got stuck once in 2010 on 205/40r17 summer tyres on a heavily lowered custard box. These days ploughing about in a rwd car, I'm not getting stuck. Again, summer tyres. Collon/Camlough iced and very hilly yet I still can get about on the ungritted roads

Where's this need for winters?

harrymagina

dgt wrote: »

Never got stuck once in 2010 on 205/40r17 summer tyres on a heavily lowered custard box. These days ploughing about in a rwd car, I'm not getting stuck. Again, summer tyres. Collon/Camlough iced and very hilly yet I still can get about on the ungritted roads

Where's this need for winters?

None really. Not a neccessity. I drive around 1200km a week on normal tyres and never had an issue in any weather condition and this was in a punto which I recently upgraded to a Mondeo. Adjust to the weather conditions and not a bother.

whomitconcerns

harrymagina wrote: »

None really. Not a neccessity. I drive around 1200km a week on normal tyres and never had an issue in any weather condition and this was in a punto which I recently upgraded to a Mondeo. Adjust to the weather conditions and not a bother.

Itq quite simple they are an advantage...not a necessity. An advantage that I choose to make usage of. They arent foolproof and you wont get all the benefit all; of the time. But if I get that advantage the one time I need it thats all that matters.

Anyway as I read somewhere once "Below 7 degrees your summer tyres start turning into hockey pucks", and I aint no Gretzky!

Anjobe

Biglad wrote: »

Being able to safely go to where I need to go no matter what the winter throws at me. I travel a lot around Ireland and Scotland in all weather conditions. I also have done previously in Holland and Germany.

The argument against winter tyres for a great many drivers is that they are also able to do this without them.

Biglad

Anjobe wrote: »

The argument against winter tyres for a great many drivers is that they are also able to do this without them.

Yes, just after reading a few of those posts...sigh

You will NOT be able to 'get round' on icy stretches of road in a RWD car, especially if these roads contain bends, any type of an incline etc let's keep this,discussion real...

Biglad

whomitconcerns wrote: »

Itq quite simple they are an advantage...not a necessity. An advantage that I choose to make usage of. They arent foolproof and you wont get all the benefit all; of the time. But if I get that advantage the one time I need it thats all that matters.

Anyway as I read somewhere once "Below 7 degrees your summer tyres start turning into hockey pucks", and I aint no Gretzky!

They in certain conditions can make the difference between being house bound or being able to get out to work, I prefer to be able to get to work...in those scenario's they are a necessity to me...

YbFocus

Biglad wrote: »

Yes, just after reading a few of those posts...sigh

You will NOT be able to 'get round' on icy stretches of road in a RWD car, especially if these roads contain bends, any type of an incline etc let's keep this,discussion real...

Last week I travelled to work on mountainous back roads.
On standard tyres i went up step inclines and around corners.
It's all about preparing early and being setup for the corner long before it.

I've never used winter tyres and have never had a problem traversing anywhere.
My car is a 2 door coupe with a 2.5 litre petrol engine and no TC.
Winter tyres aren't needed here!

stimpson

I remember the big snow a couple of years ago. Coming up a mild incline (not a hill) on my way home and I passed 4 BMW's abandoned on the same stretch of road.

Anjobe

Biglad wrote: »

Yes, just after reading a few of those posts...sigh

You will NOT be able to 'get round' on icy stretches of road in a RWD car, especially if these roads contain bends, any type of an incline etc let's keep this,discussion real...

OK, so your argument maybe holds for powerful RWD cars, if I drove a car like that I would probably fit winter tyres too, although I see YbFocus seems to manage OK.

But what about the majority who drive bog standard FWD boxes? Why should they fit winters if they have no difficulty getting around on their normal tyres?

Mycroft H

I'm still managing just fine on all terrains, zero issues, if you push it too hard your going to slip. Progressive throttle and braking will always see you through.

Winter tyres won't save you from the laws of physics despite what people seem to think here.

Biglad

Anjobe wrote: »

OK, so your argument maybe holds for powerful RWD cars, if I drove a car like that I would probably fit winter tyres too, although I see YbFocus seems to manage OK.

But what about the majority who drive bog standard FWD boxes? Why should they fit winters if they have no difficulty getting around on their normal tyres?

This could be an endless discussion but anyway. 'Getting around' is a very broad statement. Does this also means having to stop quite suddenly at a roundabout or junction on a wet, slushy or snowy roadsurface?

I am part of a running group and we met yesterday morning as usual at our training grounds. The road to the clubhouse is ever so slightly downhill. The parking area has melted snow that was frozen over night with some fresh hailstones. After our 12K run we all came back to the carpark and only 2 vehicles could just drive out. The rest were slipping and sliding all over the place...I'll let you guess which of these had their winters on.

You either see the benefit of winter tyres or you just don't want to see it. Sure many tyre fitters in Ireland would be happy to sell you just 2 winter tyres for the driven wheels only...

Biglad

YbFocus wrote: »

Last week I travelled to work on mountainous back roads.
On standard tyres i went up step inclines and around corners.
It's all about preparing early and being setup for the corner long before it.

I've never used winter tyres and have never had a problem traversing anywhere.
My car is a 2 door coupe with a 2.5 litre petrol engine and no TC.
Winter tyres aren't needed here!

Until that day you are prepared to make it up that little incline, you are in the right gear, have the momentum going, are positioned right on the road, and when have way up that big tractor or lorry appears out of no where and you have to hit the brakes...that's when the proverbial sh*t hits the fan and the wheels come off...no pun intended...