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**ALL THINGS IRISH WATER/WATER RELATED** Part 2 - MOD WARNING IN OP

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Comments

  • #1532
    Tinkersbell
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,318 ✭✭✭Tinkersbell


    I do not want to pay for water in any way
    Barely There wrote: »
    Maybe they'd stop if Gerry and friends fessed up to where she's buried?

    Oh Dear.
    What am I dealing with?
    Your total ignorance and lack of knowledge is laughable.:o


  • #1533
    Streetwalker
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,906 ✭✭✭Streetwalker


    I agree with metered water charges
    Why didn't Barrett instruct Burton to answer the question and throw the foolish labour backbencher out of the chamber? One rule for one, one for another.


  • #1534
    VinLieger
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,940 ✭✭✭✭VinLieger


    I would like to see IW to cease trading and water to remain controlled by government/local auth
    _Kaiser_ wrote: »
    It's a valid question to be fair and part of the larger problem - we have no idea what anything costs in this country thanks to everything going into a generic tax pot and doled out apparently randomly depending on what political favours are owed this year.

    Even if we got a number saying that water costs say €300 per head... can we actually trust that? What does it include etc?

    Considering most government bodies/quangos seem to spend most of their budgets on wages and pensions though I think it's fair to assume that - just like some of the charities - not much makes it to where it's actually needed.

    Very true the way tax is portioned out is very broken without taxes for certain services going to what they are collected for and instead all into a big pot. That is a serious issue that helps hide the cronyism.
    Tony EH wrote: »
    You know damn that the bills are going to up.

    No offense but go back and read my original post on this cus you missed the point of it entirely.


  • #1535
    Banjo String
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,380 ✭✭✭✭Banjo String


    I do not want to pay for water in any way
    Personally, I hope legislation is rammed through the Dail on Friday.

    That would be the rock this govt perishes on.


  • #1536
    Barely There
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,481 ✭✭✭Barely There


    Streetwalker wrote: »
    You mean you don't like democracy?
    Love democracy, that's why its incumbent on all us true Republicans (the non-murdering kind) to keep the Shinners away from the levers of power of our state
    Red Pepper wrote: »
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057323850

    Fairly common gender-neutral phrase - would have thought you'd know that.


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  • #1537
    Tinkersbell
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,318 ✭✭✭Tinkersbell


    I do not want to pay for water in any way
    Banjo String wrote: »
    Personally, I hope legislation is rammed through the Dail on Friday.

    That would be the rock this govt perishes on.

    If it's anything like the water tax legislation, it'll be rammed through in 5 minutes after the opposition have walked out in protest.
    This is not democracy we have, it's a dictatorship.
    We need a General Election and we need it fast.
    This gang have about as much credibility as the last lot in their final days.

    I'd reckon there's some amount of 'board stuffing' going on right as we speak.


  • #1538
    Tinkersbell
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,318 ✭✭✭Tinkersbell


    I do not want to pay for water in any way
    Barely There wrote: »
    Love democracy, that's why its incumbent on all us true Republicans (the non-murdering kind) to keep the Shinners away from the levers of power of our state



    Fairly common gender-neutral phrase - would have thought you'd know that.

    You know about as much about democracy as you do about Jean McConville's burial place.


  • #1539
    Tony EH
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,706 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH


    I do not want to pay for water in any way
    VinLieger wrote: »
    No offense but go back and read my original post on this cus you missed the point of it entirely.

    I've read your hypothetical post, but such a hypothesis makes only for fancy speculation.

    We don't know how much things are going to end up costing and the figures being bandied around are dubious at best at this stage.

    We also aren't sure from whom these figures come from and where their interests lie.

    So such a discussion is, frankly, meaningless.


  • #1540
    VinLieger
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,940 ✭✭✭✭VinLieger


    I would like to see IW to cease trading and water to remain controlled by government/local auth
    Tinkersbell wrote: »
    If it's anything like the water tax legislation, it'll be rammed through in 5 minutes after the opposition have walked out in protest.
    This is not democracy we have, it's a dictatorship.
    We need a General Election and we need it fast.
    This gang have about as much credibility as the last lot in their final days.

    I'd reckon there's some amount of 'board stuffing' going on right as we speak.

    Thats a ridiculous statement as much as you may not like them we collectively voted them in so yes it is democracy. They are under no obligation to call an election and even if they did calling it before Christmas would be ridiculous for everyone, businesses would suffer massively due to the uncertainty while an election process is underway.


  • #1541
    VinLieger
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,940 ✭✭✭✭VinLieger


    I would like to see IW to cease trading and water to remain controlled by government/local auth
    Tony EH wrote: »
    I've read your hypothetical post, but such a hypothesis makes only for fancy speculation.

    We don't know how much things are going to end up costing and the figures being bandied around are dubious at best at this stage.

    We also aren't sure from whom these figures come from and where their interests lie.

    So such a discussion is, frankly, meaningless.

    Well whats the point of this thread then if we can't discuss things? Just bang heads against each other to make everyone feel better?


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  • #1542
    Tinkersbell
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,318 ✭✭✭Tinkersbell


    I do not want to pay for water in any way
    VinLieger wrote: »
    Thats a ridiculous statement as much as you may not like them we collectively voted them in so yes it is democracy. They are under no obligation to call an election and even if they did calling it before Christmas would be ridiculous for everyone, businesses would suffer massively due to the uncertainty while an election process is underway.

    The water tax legislation was guillotined through the Dail in less than 4 hours.
    The opposition en masse, walked out.
    We now see the total and utter shambles that legislation is.
    You seriously call that democracy?


  • #1543
    _Kaiser_
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,252 ✭✭✭✭_Kaiser_


    I do not want to pay for water in any way
    VinLieger wrote: »
    Very true the way tax is portioned out is very broken without taxes for certain services going to what they are collected for and instead all into a big pot. That is a serious issue that helps hide the cronyism.

    Exactly.

    I actually think that most people wouldn't have a problem paying water charges, property taxes and so on IF there was full and open transparency as to how and where that money was being spent and independent (out of State) audits to verify this and ensure value for money was being delivered.

    It's OUR money after all.

    Alongside this though some serious political changes are needed. We need to get away from the "job for life and for the next generations of my family" that has a parliament stuffed with relatives and inlaws.

    - Reduce the Dail term to 4 years
    - No party can serve more than 2 consecutive terms in office
    - No TD can serve more than 3 terms
    - One pension at the end of it, paid at retirement age like everyone else
    - Similarly restructure the Senate to act as a genuine watchdog rather than the retirement home/consolation prize talking shop it currently is

    That's just off the top of my head. There's a lot more than needs to be done though too.


  • #1544
    Tony EH
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,706 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH


    I do not want to pay for water in any way
    VinLieger wrote: »
    Well whats the point of this thread then if we can't discuss things? Just bang heads against each other to make everyone feel better?

    There are too many unreliable variables to have a real meaningful discussion on your hypothesis though.

    There just isn't enough on the table.


  • #1545
    Streetwalker
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,906 ✭✭✭Streetwalker


    I agree with metered water charges
    VinLieger wrote: »
    Thats a ridiculous statement as much as you may not like them we collectively voted them in so yes it is democracy. They are under no obligation to call an election and even if they did calling it before Christmas would be ridiculous for everyone, businesses would suffer massively due to the uncertainty while an election process is underway.

    Democracy shouldn't stop as soon as the election is over, our political class think it does and im afraid most of the electorate


  • #1546
    Barely There
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,481 ✭✭✭Barely There


    Tinkersbell wrote: »
    The water tax legislation was guillotined through the Dail in less than 4 hours.
    The opposition en masse, walked out.
    We now see the total and utter shambles that legislation is.
    You seriously call that democracy?

    This is the bit where the usual suspects circle-jerk each other into a froth of righteous indignation.

    Can I start of this one?




    Enda


    He's a bit of a bollox isn't he?


  • #1547
    VinLieger
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,940 ✭✭✭✭VinLieger


    I would like to see IW to cease trading and water to remain controlled by government/local auth
    Tinkersbell wrote: »
    The water tax legislation was guillotined through the Dail in less than 4 hours.
    The opposition en masse, walked out.
    We now see the total and utter shambles that legislation is.
    You seriously call that democracy?

    Yes and I don't like it either but its all done using the legislative rules in the Dail. You don't like those rules either get yourself elected and change them or vote for someone else who will, that's democracy.

    And do you really want them to call an election this close to christmas?


  • #1548
    Tinkersbell
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,318 ✭✭✭Tinkersbell


    I do not want to pay for water in any way
    VinLieger wrote: »
    Yes and I don't like it either but its all done using the legislative rules in the Dail. You don't like those rules either get yourself elected and change them or vote for someone else who will, that's democracy.

    And do you really want them to call an election this close to christmas?

    On reflection, I'm happy enough to leave FG where they are.
    The Irish people will watch their games for the next while and then decide themselves.
    It'll be quite funny, and indeed ironic, to see FG sitting where SF are now.


  • #1549
    Tinkersbell
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,318 ✭✭✭Tinkersbell


    I do not want to pay for water in any way
    Barely There wrote: »
    This is the bit where the usual suspects circle-jerk each other into a froth of righteous indignation.

    Can I start of this one?




    Enda


    He's a bit of a bollox isn't he?

    Hard to know exactly why you're still here, mk2.
    You don't contribute much apart from the personal insults, like the ones Banjo listed earlier.


  • #1550
    VinLieger
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,940 ✭✭✭✭VinLieger


    I would like to see IW to cease trading and water to remain controlled by government/local auth
    Tinkersbell wrote: »
    On reflection, I'm happy enough to leave FG where they are.
    The Irish people will watch their games for the next while and then decide themselves.
    It'll be quite funny, and indeed ironic, to see FG sitting where SF are now.

    You really want the shinners in there? The may talk the talk but so did FG and FF before them and the reality is their economic policies ironically don't hold any water when put under scrutiny


  • #1551
    El Guapo!
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,439 ✭✭✭✭El Guapo!


    Barely There wrote: »
    This is the bit where the usual suspects circle-jerk each other into a froth of righteous indignation.

    Can I start of this one?




    Enda


    He's a bit of a bollox isn't he?


    Mod: Don't post in this thread again. If you do, you'll be banned from the forum. Any problems with this then pm me and don't discuss it on thread.


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  • #1552
    Tony EH
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,706 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH


    I do not want to pay for water in any way
    _Kaiser_ wrote: »
    Exactly.

    I actually think that most people wouldn't have a problem paying water charges, property taxes and so on IF there was full and open transparency as to how and where that money was being spent and independent (out of State) audits to verify this and ensure value for money was being delivered.

    It's OUR money after all.

    Agreed. People would be much happier if they could actually see where their money is going.

    As it stands, it's extremely difficult to get any visibility of where money ends up.

    However, it would also be far too murky with Irish Water at the helm.

    As I said repeatedly on this and the other thread, if meters were installed by the government and people were charged ONLY for what they used...the vast, vast majority wouldn't have an issue with that at all.

    But Irish Water certainly isn't going to do that.


  • #1553
    Tinkersbell
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,318 ✭✭✭Tinkersbell


    I do not want to pay for water in any way
    VinLieger wrote: »
    You really want the shinners in there? The may talk the talk but so did FG and FF before them and the reality is their economic policies ironically don't hold any water when put under scrutiny

    FG's economic policy is Tax, tax and then tax some more.
    FF's policy was to blow a bubble to enrich their Galway tent mates.
    Labour, poor Labour, just don't have any policies.
    SF could do no worse than the above mentioned, at the end of the day it's the EU and Germany who see our budgets first and make the required changes.


  • #1554
    Woodville56
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,643 ✭✭✭Woodville56


    Tinkersbell wrote: »
    On reflection, I'm happy enough to leave FG where they are.
    The Irish people will watch their games for the next while and then decide themselves.
    It'll be quite funny, and indeed ironic, to see FG sitting where SF are now.

    It would be equally funny (if it wasn't such a scary prospect) to see SF sitting where FG are now !


  • #1555
    _Kaiser_
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,252 ✭✭✭✭_Kaiser_


    I do not want to pay for water in any way
    VinLieger wrote: »
    You really want the shinners in there? The may talk the talk but so did FG and FF before them and the reality is their economic policies ironically don't hold any water when put under scrutiny

    As I've said on this thread before, this is actually an even bigger problem than IW - the lack of alternatives we have:

    - FF/FG who are 2 sides of the same coin. Equally corrupt and incompetent
    - LAB/Greens etc who abandon their principles as soon as they get into power and are annihilated for it next time round
    - SF who most will never actually vote for regardless and who think most people down here actually care about Republicanism in the face of unemployment, high taxes and crime
    - One issue "Independents" who are often made up of cast-offs from the others anyway
    - Fringe leftie groups who haven't a clue about running a country that d depends on foreign investment to survive

    This is a real problem. Where does the Irish electorate go if they are to get real change?


  • #1556
    Woodville56
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,643 ✭✭✭Woodville56


    Tinkersbell wrote: »
    FG's economic policy is Tax, tax and then tax some more.
    FF's policy was to blow a bubble to enrich their Galway tent mates.
    Labour, poor Labour, just don't have any policies.
    SF could do no worse than the above mentioned, at the end of the day it's the EU and Germany who see our budgets first and make the required changes.

    Agreed about the degree of EU /German oversight of Irish budgets - do you really think it would be any different if SF were in government?


  • #1557
    _Kaiser_
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,252 ✭✭✭✭_Kaiser_


    I do not want to pay for water in any way
    Tony EH wrote: »
    Agreed. People would be much happier if they could actually see where their money is going.

    As it stands, it's extremely difficult to get any visibility of where money ends up.

    However, it would also be far too murky with Irish Water at the helm.

    As I said repeatedly on this and the other thread, if meters were installed by the government and people were charged ONLY for what they used...the vast, vast majority wouldn't have an issue with that at all.

    But Irish Water certainly isn't going to do that.

    Agreed.. regardless of whether we do eventually end up paying water charges separately, or it continues to come from other taxation, IW is not fit for purpose, confidence in it is shattered and unfixable, and it needs to be wound up as quickly (and cheaply!) as possible - no golden parachutes this time round!


  • #1558
    Tinkersbell
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,318 ✭✭✭Tinkersbell


    I do not want to pay for water in any way
    Woodville56 wrote: »
    Agreed about the degree of EU /German oversight of Irish budgets - do you really think it would be any different if SF were in government?

    We won't know until we try.
    All other party's have failed the Irish people in the last 10 years.


  • #1559
    Cantona's Collars
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,709 ✭✭✭✭Cantona's Collars


    I agree with metered water charges
    VinLieger wrote: »
    Okay grand just keep throwing up hypotheticals to suit your argument that have no basis in fact whatsoever

    Bord Gais,Electric Ireland,the regulator has on many occasions stated "no rises in prices" but then as soon as the whinging starts,he backs off and allows them to raise their prices.History doesn't lie unlike FG/Labour.


  • #1560
    Tony EH
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,706 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH


    I do not want to pay for water in any way
    Woodville56 wrote: »
    It would be equally funny (if it wasn't such a scary prospect) to see SF sitting where FG are now !

    I've never had anything to with SF, nor do I really intend to either, but I have to ask, why is it such a "scary" prospect?


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  • #1561
    tayto lover
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 54,100 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    _Kaiser_ wrote: »
    Agreed.. regardless of whether we do eventually end up paying water charges separately, or it continues to come from other taxation, IW is not fit for purpose, confidence in it is shattered and unfixable, and it needs to be wound up as quickly (and cheaply!) as possible - no golden parachutes this time round!

    Exactly as I see it with the people it employs.
    It's a bit like making Jesse James the Sheriff.


This discussion has been closed.
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