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**ALL THINGS IRISH WATER/WATER RELATED** Part 2 - MOD WARNING IN OP

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Comments

  • #242
    Barely There
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,481 ✭✭✭Barely There


    zerks wrote: »
    I've said it before & I'll say it again - even a portion of the USC would more than fund water provision.

    Given that we're currently borrowing over half a billion a month, I doubt it.

    Even if we weren't, funding water out of central taxation doesn't work. If you want evidence of this, you can look at the creaking system we have now which has been funded in this manner since abolition of rates in the early 70's

    Do you really trust politicians to make decision which are in the best long-term interest of society when it comes to capital investment in infrastructure, or do you think they'll spend the least amount possible and use the rest to fund give-aways budgets to try to secure their re-election 18months down the line?

    I know what I'd prefer, and the current system isn't it.


  • #243
    _Kaiser_
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,251 ✭✭✭✭_Kaiser_


    I do not want to pay for water in any way
    Red Pepper wrote: »
    I work in PR and I have some friends that are working close to the government. I am hearing that there is a huge drive this week to fill the media with non Irish Water stories - everything and anything to get Irish Water off the headlines. For example, the timing of new job announcements and FF/bailout letters last/this week isn't coincidental. The government are really scared this time. It's interesting.

    I said that yesterday in the other thread when the contents of the Trichet letter were announced, but of course the "usual suspects" tried to suggest that it was totally unrelated :rolleyes:
    Creative Juices wrote: »
    I am surprised this government have a PR department. Coming off the back of arguably the worst FF government in the history of the state, it is hard to fathom how badly wrong FG and Labour have got it. They have just plodded from one crisis or screw-up to another.

    That's been the hallmark of Kenny's government.. do nothing except plod along and wait and see, but claim credit for any upswing as a result of a general (but apparently short-lived) improvement in Europe or private enterprise creating jobs.

    As for PR.. this government have taken spin to a whole new level


  • #244
    shinzon
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,463 ✭✭✭shinzon


    I do not want to pay for water in any way
    Little CuChulainn wrote: »
    Sounds like the government have decided to take stock of things and actually put some thought into the implementation of the water charges. It was stupid to try rush it through so fast.

    There taking stock of feck all, all there doing is taking time to see if they can get away with deducting wages etc etc without using revenue if people don't pay

    they'll also come out with more half arsed attempts to sweeten the pot to get people to sign up, stalling tactics is all while they run around with there arse in the wind

    Shin


  • #245
    gladrags
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,028 ✭✭✭gladrags


    I do not want to pay for water in any way
    VinLieger wrote: »
    And that's also an incredibly sweeping statement, you can assure US that every single protestor marching knows what they are marching for and isn't just a sheep? There isn't one person in the country jumping on the bandwagon? How do you know this, did you talk to all of them?


    Here is your reply, you accused another poster of speaking for all the protesters,while at the same time,took on this mantle yourself of representing the posters on this thread,no less.Note the word US

    Sad.

    Prevarication ensues.


  • #246
    VinLieger
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,931 ✭✭✭✭VinLieger


    I would like to see IW to cease trading and water to remain controlled by government/local auth
    gladrags wrote: »
    Here is your reply, you accused another poster of speaking for all the protesters,while at the same time,took on this mantle yourself of representing the posters on this thread,no less.Note the word US

    Sad.

    Prevarication ensues.

    Ugh get over yourself if that's your biggest problem in the world right now you might want to turn of the computer and get a life.

    Gonna take a break from this as im getting tired of beating my head against a wall and the constant attempts to derail the discussion away from what needs to be discussed and that's paying for water be it through IW or some other mean's


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  • #247
    Streetwalker
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,906 ✭✭✭Streetwalker


    I agree with metered water charges
    Red Pepper wrote: »
    I work in PR and I have some friends that are working close to the government. I am hearing that there is a huge drive this week to fill the media with non Irish Water stories - everything and anything to get Irish Water off the headlines. For example, the timing of new job announcements and FF/bailout letters last/this week isn't coincidental. The government are really scared this time. It's interesting.

    It's been pretty blatant this week tbh. Some of the stuff on RTE in particular is laughable. I don't know if they have a direct line to government's PR department but it would seem like it a lot of the time. Public service broadcaster my arse.


  • #248
    Cantona's Collars
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,709 ✭✭✭✭Cantona's Collars


    I agree with metered water charges
    Barely There wrote: »
    Given that we're currently borrowing over half a billion a month, I doubt it.

    Even if we weren't, funding water out of central taxation doesn't work. If you want evidence of this, you can look at the creaking system we have now which has been funded in this manner since abolition of rates in the early 70's

    Do you really trust politicians to make decision which are in the best long-term interest of society when it comes to capital investment in infrastructure, or do you think they'll spend the least amount possible and use the rest to fund give-aways budgets to try to secure their re-election 18months down the line?

    I know what I'd prefer, and the current system isn't it.

    Strangely,for the first time I partly agree with you regarding the government's way of doing things.Improving infrastructure has always been low on their list of priorities no matter which party was in charge.IW isn't going to cure this either,too many vested interests which even in it's embryonic stage are using it as a way to improve their lot either financially or career wise,anyone who thinks they are the good guys that will cure all that's wrong with water provision & treatment are deluded.
    Politicians in this country have always been self serving & the mess that IW is is just a symptom of this.


  • #249
    Little CuChulainn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,624 ✭✭✭Little CuChulainn


    I would like to see IW to cease trading and water to remain controlled by government/local auth
    Bit more about the protest at Coolock from the Indo today.
    It has emerged that known activists associated with members of the Real IRA faction, formerly led by Alan Ryan, have hijacked a series of protests on the northside of Dublin.

    The violence escalated on Wednesday night outside Coolock garda station on the northside of Dublin where a large group of demonstrators, mainly comprising genuine householders protesting against the proposed charges, had gathered.

    During the violence, which involved the dissidents, a garda inspector was badly attacked, a female garda had a car window smashed and a volley of missiles was fired at the garda station.

    Genuine protestors need to seperate themselves from these people or their message will be lost.


  • #250
    moxin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,203 ✭✭✭moxin


    I do not want to pay for water in any way
    Little CuChulainn wrote: »
    Bit more about the protest at Coolock from the Indo today.

    Genuine protestors need to seperate themselves from these people or their message will be lost.

    Denis O'Brien owns GMC Sierra(water meter installers) and has the biggest shareholder stake in the Indo.
    Labelling a million people as part of the H2O IRA, sad to see you falling for the propaganda.


  • #251
    Geuze
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,262 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    Barely There wrote: »

    I heard the Shinner McDonald on the radio yesterday evening. Sweep away the bluster and the SF solution to provision of water is to increase income taxes - is this what most protestors want?
    Other than the profession SW class, who are used to getting everything paid for by others, I doubt it.

    Yes, the SF budget proposes to increase income taxes, as you'd expect from a socialist party, no surprise there.

    Anybody earning above 32,800 and paying pension conts would face higher income taxes.

    Of course, they wouldn't have to pay water charges or LPT.

    Socialist parties tend to favour higher direct income taxes rather than indirect taxes.


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  • #252
    Barely There
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,481 ✭✭✭Barely There


    zerks wrote: »
    Strangely,for the first time I partly agree with you regarding the government's way of doing things.Improving infrastructure has always been low on their list of priorities no matter which party was in charge.IW isn't going to cure this either,too many vested interests which even in it's embryonic stage are using it as a way to improve their lot either financially or career wise,anyone who thinks they are the good guys that will cure all that's wrong with water provision & treatment are deluded.
    Politicians in this country have always been self serving & the mess that IW is is just a symptom of this.

    So what's your solution then.

    You don't want a dedicated body to deal with water-provision, you don't want the current political system of funding it.

    I presume you have a third way.


  • #253
    Valetta
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,611 ✭✭✭Valetta


    moxin wrote: »
    Denis O'Brien owns GMC Sierra(water meter installers) and has the biggest shareholder stake in the Indo.
    Labelling a million people as part of the H2O IRA, sad to see you falling for the propaganda.

    What?


  • #254
    gladrags
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,028 ✭✭✭gladrags


    I do not want to pay for water in any way
    VinLieger wrote: »
    Gonna take a break from this as im getting tired of beating my head against a wall and the constant attempts to derail the discussion away from what needs to be discussed and that's paying for water be it through IW or some other mean's

    You should have considered the above before you jumped in with your double stanards,and hypocrisy.


  • #255
    KERSPLAT!
    Closed Accounts Posts: 31,152 ✭✭✭✭KERSPLAT!


    I would like to see IW to cease trading and water to remain controlled by government/local auth
    MOD

    Gladrags and Vienlieger, can ye give it a rest and get back on topic.


  • #256
    Banjo String
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,380 ✭✭✭✭Banjo String


    I do not want to pay for water in any way
    Little CuChulainn wrote: »
    Bit more about the protest at Coolock from the Indo today.



    Genuine protestors need to seperate themselves from these people or their message will be lost.

    Surprised they haven't attempted to try to link protests to Isis at this stage.

    If there's one thing FG excel at, it's divide and conquer.


  • #257
    Red Pepper
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,567 ✭✭✭Red Pepper


    I do not want to pay for water in any way
    KERSPLAT! wrote: »
    MOD

    Gladrags and Vienlieger, can ye give it a rest and get back on topic.

    It's just handbags at this stage ;)


  • #258
    moxin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,203 ✭✭✭moxin


    I do not want to pay for water in any way
    Valetta wrote: »
    What?

    It says exactly what it says on the tin. Open your eyes.


  • #259
    renegademaster
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,670 ✭✭✭renegademaster


    Banjo String wrote: »
    Surprised they haven't attempted to try to link protests to Isis at this stage.

    If there's one thing FG excel at, it's divide and conquer.

    if the political parties worldwide weren't experts at divide and conquer the people would be in control, nothing exclusively Irish about this tactic at all


  • #260
    ben.schlomo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,592 ✭✭✭✭ben.schlomo


    I would like to see IW to cease trading and water to remain controlled by government/local auth
    renegademaster wrote: »
    if the political parties worldwide weren't experts at divide and conquer the people would be in control, nothing exclusively Irish about this tactic at all

    Insightful as always.


  • #261
    Curly Judge
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,708 ✭✭✭Curly Judge


    I would like to see IW to cease trading and water to remain controlled by government/local auth
    Banjo String wrote: »
    Surprised they haven't attempted to try to link protests to Isis at this stage.

    If there's one thing FG excel at, it's divide and conquer.

    There is a political element to all these marches and the organisation thereof.
    Thats to be expected and quite normal.
    At the more extremes ends there are undoubtedly subversive and dissident factions trying to generate inappropriate responses from the guards.
    A very dangerous game indeed and one which will, hopefully, end up being counterproductive.


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  • #262
    Red Pepper
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,567 ✭✭✭Red Pepper


    I do not want to pay for water in any way
    Red Pepper wrote: »
    I work in PR and I have some friends that are working close to the government. I am hearing that there is a huge drive this week to fill the media with non Irish Water stories - everything and anything to get Irish Water off the headlines. For example, the timing of new job announcements and FF/bailout letters last/this week isn't coincidental. The government are really scared this time. It's interesting.

    My sources tell me that the FG parliamentary party meetings are very tense. They don't want a snap General Election. At the same time there is an understanding that SF dont want one either. SF are happy to let the government plod along from crisis to crisis for now and they also want to put some distance on the bad press Gerry Adams was getting. They expect SF to get up to 30 seats in the next GE, the question is at who's expense. The Labour parliamentary party meetings are a more closed shop but I expect they are worried. The big worry now is that when the pressure increases, Enda says or does stupid things (think Seanad) so he is being carefully managed.


  • #263
    Valetta
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,611 ✭✭✭Valetta


    moxin wrote: »
    It says exactly what it says on the tin. Open your eyes.

    Nobody labelled one million people as part of H2O IRA - whatever that is, so your post is meaningless.

    Probably best off deleting it and trying again with something that bears some resemblence to reality.


  • #264
    renegademaster
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,670 ✭✭✭renegademaster


    Curly Judge wrote: »
    There is a political element to all these marches and the organisation thereof.
    Thats to be expected and quite normal.
    At the more extremes ends there are undoubtedly subversive and dissident factions trying to generate inappropriate responses from the guards.
    A very dangerous game indeed and one which will, hopefully, end up being counterproductive.

    you do realise innocent women were seriously assaulted and pepper sprayed during the day by the garda? i know who's doing the provoking and it wasn't the "dissidents" you speak of
    Red Pepper wrote: »
    My sources tell me that the FG parliamentary party meetings are very tense. They don't want a snap General Election. At the same time there is an understanding that SF dont want one either. SF are happy to let the government plod along from crisis to crisis for now and they also want to put some distance on the bad press Gerry Adams was getting. They expect SF to get up to 30 seats in the next GE, the question is at who's expense. The Labour parliamentary party meetings are a more closed shop but I expect they are worried. The big worry now is that when the pressure increases, Enda says or does stupid things (think Seanad) so he is being carefully managed.

    well tough $hit, the people will decide when the next election is ;)


  • #265
    moxin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,203 ✭✭✭moxin


    I do not want to pay for water in any way
    Valetta wrote: »
    Nobody labelled one million people as part of H2O IRA - whatever that is, so your post is meaningless.

    Probably best off deleting it and trying again with something that bears some resemblence to reality.

    Denis O'Briens Indo in an act of desperation to save water charges labelled the protest movement as dissidents. Mud won't stick this time.


  • #266
    Little CuChulainn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,624 ✭✭✭Little CuChulainn


    I would like to see IW to cease trading and water to remain controlled by government/local auth
    moxin wrote: »
    Labelling a million people as part of the H2O IRA, sad to see you falling for the propaganda.

    Who said that? You're just making something up, attributing it to others and then arguing against it instead of what they actually said.


  • #267
    Banjo String
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,380 ✭✭✭✭Banjo String


    I do not want to pay for water in any way
    ben.schlomo wrote: »
    Insightful as always.

    He's correct.

    Even the Indos sensationalist headlines today have a picture of a car upturned, gas mask wearing rioters throwing misiles.....

    Only thing, it was photos taken in Brussels..... Very Misleading, but obviously completely coincidental.


  • #268
    Valetta
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,611 ✭✭✭Valetta


    moxin wrote: »
    Denis O'Briens Indo in an act of desperation to save water charges labelled the protest movement as dissidents. Mud won't stick this time.

    So they didn't label one million people as anything at all.


  • #269
    Cantona's Collars
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,709 ✭✭✭✭Cantona's Collars


    I agree with metered water charges
    Barely There wrote: »
    So what's your solution then.

    You don't want a dedicated body to deal with water-provision, you don't want the current political system of funding it.

    I presume you have a third way.

    I've said it before,streamline the water divisions of the LA's,we don't need one for each county & they are doing the groundworks anyway.Ringfence finance for water and cut out the middle man (IW).
    As it stands,IW are only a billing service dressed up to look something more than what they are.Of course being Ireland,things have been done arseways & a quango has been set up rather than sitting down & doing the right thing which might actually be value for money.


  • #270
    Barely There
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,481 ✭✭✭Barely There


    zerks wrote: »
    I've said it before,streamline the water divisions of the LA's,we don't need one for each county & they are doing the groundworks anyway.Ringfence finance for water and cut out the middle man (IW).
    As it stands,IW are only a billing service dressed up to look something more than what they are.Of course being Ireland,things have been done arseways & a quango has been set up rather than sitting down & doing the right thing which might actually be value for money.


    Can you explain how this is done without a separate charge for water-usage.

    What exactly is being ring-fenced and who is determining the amount to ring-fence?
    How often is the amount of ring-fenced funds determined and on what basis?


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  • #271
    moxin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,203 ✭✭✭moxin


    I do not want to pay for water in any way
    Valetta wrote: »
    So they didn't label one million people as anything at all.
    Little CuChulainn wrote: »
    Who said that? You're just making something up, attributing it to others and then arguing against it instead of what they actually said.

    Yes they did. With a photo of a Brussels riot on the front page!!

    Headline
    "Water protests infiltrated by dissidents as meters on hold" That there is labeling a million people as part of the H2O IRA.

    And they mentioned that a "Garda inspector was badly attacked" according to their mysterious source. First report of that, even the Gardai themselves never reported that yet!


This discussion has been closed.
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