**ALL THINGS IRISH WATER/WATER RELATED** Part 2 - MOD WARNING IN OP

gladrags

I do not want to pay for water in any way

Wurly wrote: »

I know this has been said already but Sligo County Council have passed a motion to abolish water charges. Excellent news.

http://sligoweekender.ie/2014/11/06/water-water-everywhere-council-votes-charges/

And people say protesting does no good.:)

A repeat in other councils is very likely,given the political make up.

Not sure how relevant this is,but it certainly adds to the momentum for alternitaves.

Thd Seanaid could be next.

Tinkersbell

I do not want to pay for water in any way

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

Something I think FG and LAB will have to get used to again very shortly

Two party's that truly are happier in their proper position on the opposition benches.
You'd almost feel sorry for Labour, they used to be the party for the working class (whatever that is), but now they really have no position, no ideals and no identity, other than being the mudguard for everything FG.
That's sad for a once proud party.

tayto lover

Tinkersbell wrote: »

Two party's that truly are happier in their proper position on the opposition benches.
You'd almost feel sorry for Labour, they used to be the party for the working class (whatever that is), but now they really have no position, no ideals and no identity, other than being the mudguard for everything FG.
That's sad for a once proud party.

I used to always vote Labour but never again.
Voted FG last time because of their promises to clean up politics and eradicate cronyism. Look where that got me.

gladrags

I do not want to pay for water in any way

Tinkersbell wrote: »

Two party's that truly are happier in their proper position on the opposition benches.
You'd almost feel sorry for Labour, they used to be the party for the working class (whatever that is), but now they really have no position, no ideals and no identity, other than being the mudguard for everything FG.
That's sad for a once proud party.

Very sad given their history,they slowly lost touch with their grass roots,in order to widen their appeal.

Forgot were they came from.

dxhound2005

the groutch wrote: »

Leitrim County Council passed a similar motion unanimously, even with the county having 4 FG councillors.

It wasn't formally discussed. Leitrim is a mostly rural county with some of the population being charged for their Group Scheme water by Leitrim County Council. Is there any chance they could pass a motion to abolish those charges?

http://www.leitrimobserver.ie/news/business/news/council-provides-clarity-for-group-water-schemes-1-6358369

Under present allowances, Group Water Schemes have an allowance of 225m3 per domestic connection each year.

Anything used above this will be charged at a rate of €1.10 per m3 and the same standing rate of €60 per annum will still applied.

Leitrim County Council stress that no concessions will be made for any leakages on a scheme, meaning that any water lost will have to be paid for and the Council will continue to collect any previously outstanding balances on behalf of Irish Water.

Highflyer13

I do not want to pay for water in any way

gladrags wrote: »

Very sad given their history,they slowly lost touch with their grass roots,in order to widen their appeal.

Forgot were they came from.

It was predicted in 2011 that Labour would be a shoe in for Govt in 2016 if they didn't join the coalition as the next govt would likely be despised. They jumped at their chance at power in 2011 and ultimately it may destroy them.

Tinkersbell

I do not want to pay for water in any way

gladrags wrote: »

Very sad given their history,they slowly lost touch with their grass roots,in order to widen their appeal.

Forgot were they came from.

When you see Jack O'Connor of SIPTU taking the FG line, a man earning over €120k plus expenses, you know Labour and the counterparts in that, the biggest union in the land, are in deep doodoo.
Did Jack ever explain the SIPTU slush fund to us?

Irish Steve

I would like to see IW to cease trading and water to remain controlled by government/local auth

gladrags wrote: »

Levy the banks and financial institutions.

That's a very reasonable starter.

12 Eu countries are introducing a levy,in response to the damage done.Payback time for banks.

All countries in EU were invited to join earlier this year.Noonan said no.

Funny how the whingers who want the taxpayer to pay,never quote this when they are on about other countries.

Put a levy on financial services sector bonuses as well as the suggested transaction tax on banks.

Change the whole concept of how health is paid for, and charged. The money wasted on spending hours producing bills for the health insurers is dead money that does nothing to benefit health provision. Get rid of the concept of "health insurance", and move more towards the concept of a fully funded service that's paid for by all.

Introduce specific A & E charges for services provided to those who are unable to control their drinking.

perhaps put an extra tax on high sugar content drinks, might have health benefits as well as help the income stream

Tax on texts sounds good.

Stop politicians drawing pensions early, the rest of us have to work till retirement, let them join the same ethic.

Remove the state service job for life concept. Everything else in life changes over the period of a persons employment, the state services should have the same ability to change it's staff to suit the requirement, with appropriate protections as are available in the private sector for redundancy.

reduce the number of quangos that are operating. There was a list of them earlier in the other thread, and the number is only obscene. We're a nation of less than 5 million, not the United states.

Reform the conditions of employment of the state sector, in areas such as sick leave, it's being abused

Do away with career breaks for teachers, the cost of this is out of all proportion to the value.

Review and reform the treatment of "offshore" earnings, it's already happening, speed up the process, and make sure that the high earners and their companies are paying tax where they earn the money.

Review the manner in which oil and gas fields within Irish territorial waters are being operated and used, to ensure that Ireland gets value for money from them.

impose a "luxury" tax on foreign and or designer label bottled water, importing it is inappropriate, so if people really want it, let them pay a bit more for the luxury of having it.

Stargate

I do not want to pay for water in any way

dxhound2005 wrote: »

They have no power in the matter. There were 17 present out of the 18 and 14 voted in favour of abolishing IW. Must be a bit difficult on the anti side trying to outdo each other as to who is the most anti.

Your just going around in circles , soon you will catch your own tail dx

twowheelsgood

Tinkersbell wrote: »

Comparing Ireland to other countries is a one way street by the looks of it.
There's something deep in the psyche of people who do this continually, maybe in their heads they're still doffing the cap?

No, it is simply that the rational for citing that most countries charge directly for water appears to be too subtle for those who respond to this point. The imagine that the argument being made is that “if every other country does it we should do”, which would of course be a preposterous reason for doing anything and they can readily dismiss this as the nonsense argument that it is.

But of course, that is not the argument that is being put. If you argue, as some do, that funding water services from central taxation is the most suitable way to proceed then you are logically bound to make the arguments for such an approach and counter the arguments against.

And if what you believe is at odds with normal practice everywhere else then you need to argue that everybody else has it wrong (and explain why) or perhaps make a case that there is something unique about Ireland which makes our choice of opting for the unusual the correct one. Or some other credible explanation. So such arguments have been made; instead the straw man is wheeled out.

Tinkersbell

I do not want to pay for water in any way

dxhound2005 wrote: »

It wasn't formally discussed. Leitrim is a mostly rural county with some of the population being charged for their Group Scheme water by Leitrim County Council. Is there any chance they could pass a motion to abolish those charges?








Your posts remind me very much of the two lads, Dempsey and Ahearne, when they were telling us that there was no deal with the troika.
Quite dismissive, even though whats happening is staring you in the face.

dxhound2005

Highflyer13 wrote: »

It was predicted in 2011 that Labour would be a shoe in for Govt in 2016 if they didn't join the coalition as the next govt would likely be despised. They jumped at their chance at power in 2011 and ultimately it may destroy them.

With 37 seats they could hardly envisage opposition for 5 years. They have always been subject to ups and downs. From memory they have had as low as 9 seats not too long back. And probably 10% of the vote on average. I expect that they will just about make double figures in 2016.

And it will almost certainly be a one term government. Enda does not have the Bertie touch. Bertie got elected three times in a row and ruled for 15 years along with Biffo. He knew how to run a country and satisfy the voters.

tayto lover

twowheelsgood wrote: »

No, it is simply that the rational for citing that most countries charge directly for water appears to be too subtle for those who respond to this point. The imagine that the argument being made is that “if every other country does it we should do”, which would of course be a preposterous reason for doing anything and they can readily dismiss this as the nonsense argument that it is.

But of course, that is not the argument that is being put. If you argue, as some do, that funding water services from central taxation is the most suitable way to proceed then you are logically bound to make the arguments for such an approach and counter the arguments against.

And if what you believe is at odds with normal practice everywhere else then you need to argue that everybody else has it wrong (and explain why) or perhaps make a case that there is something unique about Ireland which makes our choice of opting for the unusual the correct one. Or some other credible explanation. So such arguments have been made; instead the straw man is wheeled out.

So again how much do other countries pay in VRT, VAT, USC, PRSI and Levies?
Let's continue to compare for awhile now that you've started.

twowheelsgood

tayto lover wrote: »

So again how much do other countries pay in VRT, VAT, USC, PRSI and Levies?
Let's continue to compare for awhile now that you've started.

I thought your view was that we should not simply ape what others do? It is certainly my view.

My name is URL

I would like to see IW to cease trading and water to remain controlled by government/local auth

Irish Steve wrote: »

Put a levy on financial services sector bonuses as well as the suggested transaction tax on banks.

Change the whole concept of how health is paid for, and charged. The money wasted on spending hours producing bills for the health insurers is dead money that does nothing to benefit health provision. Get rid of the concept of "health insurance", and move more towards the concept of a fully funded service that's paid for by all.

Introduce specific A & E charges for services provided to those who are unable to control their drinking.

perhaps put an extra tax on high sugar content drinks, might have health benefits as well as help the income stream

Tax on texts sounds good.

Stop politicians drawing pensions early, the rest of us have to work till retirement, let them join the same ethic.

Remove the state service job for life concept. Everything else in life changes over the period of a persons employment, the state services should have the same ability to change it's staff to suit the requirement, with appropriate protections as are available in the private sector for redundancy.

reduce the number of quangos that are operating. There was a list of them earlier in the other thread, and the number is only obscene. We're a nation of less than 5 million, not the United states.

Reform the conditions of employment of the state sector, in areas such as sick leave, it's being abused

Do away with career breaks for teachers, the cost of this is out of all proportion to the value.

Review and reform the treatment of "offshore" earnings, it's already happening, speed up the process, and make sure that the high earners and their companies are paying tax where they earn the money.

Review the manner in which oil and gas fields within Irish territorial waters are being operated and used, to ensure that Ireland gets value for money from them.

impose a "luxury" tax on foreign and or designer label bottled water, importing it is inappropriate, so if people really want it, let them pay a bit more for the luxury of having it.

It's easy to say all that when you're not a politician though =p

Tinkersbell

I do not want to pay for water in any way

twowheelsgood wrote: »

No, it is simply that the rational for citing that most countries charge directly for water appears to be too subtle for those who respond to this point. The imagine that the argument being made is that “if every other country does it we should do”, which would of course be a preposterous reason for doing anything and they can readily dismiss this as the nonsense argument that it is.

But of course, that is not the argument that is being put. If you argue, as some do, that funding water services from central taxation is the most suitable way to proceed then you are logically bound to make the arguments for such an approach and counter the arguments against.

And if what you believe is at odds with normal practice everywhere else then you need to argue that everybody else has it wrong (and explain why) or perhaps make a case that there is something unique about Ireland which makes our choice of opting for the unusual the correct one. Or some other credible explanation. So such arguments have been made; instead the straw man is wheeled out.

Is it normal practice in other countries to have a USC on top of all other income taxes?
Is it normal to have a 23% vat rate?
Is it normal to have to shell out the guts of €1,000 per child on books, uniform etc to send them to school each year?
Is it normal to pay €50 to visit a GP?
Is it normal to be charged an illegal VRT on a car, and VAT on top of that?
Are all these things normal in other countries? Take our nearest neighbour, the one that's referenced on here a lot, the UK.
Are all these things normal there?

gladrags

I do not want to pay for water in any way

Tinkersbell wrote: »

When you see Jack O'Connor of SIPTU taking the FG line, a man earning over €120k plus expenses, you know Labour and the counterparts in that, the biggest union in the land, are in deep doodoo.
Did Jack ever explain the SIPTU slush fund to us?

They are a disgrace.

I think PAC are investigating.

Infini

I do not want to pay for water in any way

Realistically theyre dead in the water at this stage. Unless they climbdown now and start over theyre eventually gonna be thrown out. Labour are afraid big time, because of their support for this disaster of a plan their support base has evaporated entirely. Theyre very likely to get annihilated like the greens. Many of their TDs would have a better chance of being elected by going independent than staying with such a toxic brand. As for Fine Gael theyll survive since they still got support in culchie country but are more than likely to end up in the same state as fianna fail. As for them theyre going nowhere people wont forgive them expecially with such a useless muppet leading them until the old guard is long gone if ever. Sinn Fein stand to gain the most but they wont have enough trust from people in Ireland to take majority control so long as Adams is still there. He has too many skeletons in the closet to come back and haunt him to ever get elected to the hot seat. Biggest winners will be indos flat out as the established parties tbh are either traitors, sellouts, arrogant combeens or too shady. Strong possibility a new party could be formed of people who are cleaned of the gombeenism of the old guard policial establisment and win big if someone can lead em.

As for Irish Water this thing has nowhere to go except the bin in its current form. Its just too toxic from all the scandal and uproar to remain and will only keep drawing out people until its canned. Return the staff to their old jobs and start over taking only the staff needed for a new utility thats NOT for profit only for maintinence of the network. Water might have to be paid for but right now people want to know EXACTLY where there money is going. They wont accept their cast being funneled into a wanker banker bailout fund anymore theyve had enough.

The truth of the situation is that the majority of people have been pushed too far. They cant and wont take anymore. The people who ruined the economy got away scottfree. The people have been burdened with everything and havent even gotten so much as a decent bit of justice like having patrick and his friends banged up in the joy for 10yrs. They can claimed to have fixed to have fixed the economy but that isnt much use unless the people on the ground see it. They aint seeing it when they struggle to get a job or their sons and daughters are still leaving because they cant get work here. The so called friends of europe basically blackmailed Lenihan into a bailout that realistically we shouldve refused as we everyone knew that if the goverment then had called their bluff then things mightve turned out far different maybe for better or worse but the country wouldnt have ended up footing a €60+ billion private debt.

The fact that they've withdraw the threats of cutoffs shows the sheer opposition they face would flat out shut down any plans of that kind not to mention put people at risk. The fact that now theyre threatening to take it from peoples money is like attacting yerself to a lighting rod in the middle of a storm. its NOT gonna end well. They simply arent getting the message that this plan is dead in the water. Either it goes or they go its a simple as that. Theres no sweettalking out of this one as peoples patience has simply run out.

While people have said 150k people isnt alot you got to remember thats a significant amount of people for here that not to mention that when protests get to that size theres no hope of winning cept a complete backdown. The comparisons to the English Poll tax are already apparent.

Either they scrap water tax or before the year is out theyll be the ones getting scrapped.

twowheelsgood

Tinkersbell wrote: »

Is it normal practice in other countries to have a USC on top of all other income taxes?
Is it normal to have a 23% vat rate?
Is it normal to have to shell out the guts of €1,000 per child on books, uniform etc to send them to school each year?
Is it normal to pay €50 to visit a GP?
Is it normal to be charged an illegal VRT on a car, and VAT on top of that?
Are all these things normal in other countries? Take our nearest neighbour, the one that's referenced on here a lot, the UK.
Are all these things normal there?

Well my post was about misunderstanding an argument. But you appear to have misunderstood this.

But fine. Change all of the above to some "normal" level and determine the cost of doing so. They determine what changes you would make in our economy to fund these changes.

gladrags

I do not want to pay for water in any way

"Bertie got elected three times in a row and ruled for 15 years along with biffo.He knew how to run a country and satisfy the voters."

From a tent in Galway.

Cuttlefish

VinLieger wrote: »

Sigh trotting out the same old "paying for water twice" mantra that's is just a logical fallacy, we pay income tax, VAT and whatever else that happens to go toward's water. It won't going forward and we have had reduction's to compensate for it and will get more next year.

A hell of a lot of people don't pay these taxes and are getting water for free explain that?

You all will be crying foul again when you have no drinkable water in your houses 10 years from now.

Read back through earlier posts someone mentioned a hike in VAT and Motor Tax when water rates were scrapped before so yes we are

And

Dont scare monger please

moxin

I do not want to pay for water in any way

And remember those 150,000 all have relatives who could not march for various reasons(lazyness, in work, ill health, elderly etc) so the likely number who oppose water charges is much higher. The lack of registering with Irish Water confirms that.

dxhound2005

gladrags wrote: »

"Bertie got elected three times in a row and ruled for 15 years along with biffo.He knew how to run a country and satisfy the voters."

From a tent in Galway.

You shouldn't scoff. He gave the people what they wanted. Way above inflation increases for the pensioners every year. And bonanza time for Child Benefit. SSIA's out their ears. And they rewarded him.

Enda keeps taking money off the people and they don't like it. So he will have to go.

moxin

I do not want to pay for water in any way

Just in, if true..
https://www.facebook.com/thelandleague/posts/1487790678163993?fref=nf

Affects Donaghmede,Edenmore,Baldoyle,Kilbarack,Raheny & Coolock according to the campaign group.

The Land League have been informed this evening from a reliable source within the Government that Irish Water have been instructed to withdraw GMC SERRA from installing any further water meters in Estates where public orders has broken down
The Garda have been told to stand down in areas where there have been allegations of heavy policing
In coolock Garda District the 30 man Garda special riot unit Established and operating for the last 3 Months whose actions are alleged to have escalated tensions and added to the unrest within the northside housing estates has also been stood down.

THE LAND LEAGUE has supported Peaceful Protest and welcomes the government clime down and truce which resulted in the withdrawal of GMC SERRA vans from Problem estates with effect from Thursday morning 6 November.
Tension increased on Wednesday evening following the granting of court orders to GMC SERRA in the fore Courts which were unenforceable and fears grew that the Court orders were going to escalate and raise tension even further.
It is understood the decision was taken late on Wednesday Evening after the Taoiseach and his official car became a target in Santry with ugly scenes developing later outside Coolock Garda Station.

They were absent today I believe.

Geuze

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

Excluding the medical card, prescription subsidies, hospital fee cap of €100, free eye tests, free dental check ups and back to school allowance there are a few other things.

The problem is that you are likely a PAYE worker and so you will see very little of the above but pay for it anyway. In much the same way you currently pay for water you don't use. You are disgruntled because you think you don't get value for money. You are right. Other people get it instead because we are an overly generous welfare state where some people can give all and get nothing and others can give nothing and take all. And we will continue to be so as long as we have such a narrow tax base.

Yes, I know retired couples on 50,000 paying under 10% income tax, with med cards, travel passes, household benefits package, and now 100 off their water charges.

The average worker may face a 52% marginal tax rate over 32,800, but many other people pay very low effective taxes.

Irish Steve

I would like to see IW to cease trading and water to remain controlled by government/local auth

twowheelsgood wrote: »

No, it is simply that the rational for citing that most countries charge directly for water appears to be too subtle for those who respond to this point. The imagine that the argument being made is that “if every other country does it we should do”, which would of course be a preposterous reason for doing anything and they can readily dismiss this as the nonsense argument that it is.

But of course, that is not the argument that is being put. If you argue, as some do, that funding water services from central taxation is the most suitable way to proceed then you are logically bound to make the arguments for such an approach and counter the arguments against.

And if what you believe is at odds with normal practice everywhere else then you need to argue that everybody else has it wrong (and explain why) or perhaps make a case that there is something unique about Ireland which makes our choice of opting for the unusual the correct one. Or some other credible explanation. So such arguments have been made; instead the straw man is wheeled out.

I think I mentioned earlier that there are specific EU directives that leave very few alternatives to having a meter based consumption charging system for water, the objectives being to ensure that the use of water does not become unmanageable due to excessive inappropriate use.

Those same directives are also aiming towards ensuring adequate funding for the treatment of water to ensure it is potable, and that waste water has been treated to ensure that it does not cause harm to the environment.

The only unique aspects of Ireland are that it is the most remote island country in the EU, with the poorest and most expensive communication links to the rest of the community, which means that EVERYTHING imported into this country is automatically significantly more expensive than the same product in other countries.

It's getting away from the core subject of the thread, but the only way we're going to see things really improve is by increasing the quantity and value of goods (preferably REAL goods) that we produce and export to other countries. Financial services are all very well, but I'm not convinced that there's the same value added return that there is on real products.

I'm just sitting here watching the news, and Ireland is not the only country in the EU with problems, there's been riots on the streets in Brussels this evening, protests over austerity plans became violent, as Belgium's new government tries to bring in measure to reduce public spending. Clearly there are problems for more than just Ireland with the way that the European adventure is developing. Clearly, the political leadership is having problems persuading the people that their direction and plans are required and acceptable. Thought provoking, given that the same sentiments were being expressed about the American system only yesterday.

Geuze

Tinkersbell wrote: »

Is it normal practice in other countries to have a USC on top of all other income taxes?
Is it normal to have a 23% vat rate?
Is it normal to have to shell out the guts of €1,000 per child on books, uniform etc to send them to school each year?
Is it normal to pay €50 to visit a GP?
Is it normal to be charged an illegal VRT on a car, and VAT on top of that?
Are all these things normal in other countries? Take our nearest neighbour, the one that's referenced on here a lot, the UK.
Are all these things normal there?

These are all fair points.

But it's also true that many people here pay very low effective direct tax rates.

I know couples on 50k paying under 10% direct tax, way below other countries.

Stargate

I do not want to pay for water in any way

moxin wrote: »

Just in, if true..
https://www.facebook.com/thelandleague/posts/1487790678163993?fref=nf

Affects Donaghmede,Edenmore,Baldoyle,Kilbarack,Raheny & Coolock according to the campaign group.


They were absent today I believe.

Was watching that develop , the end of the article says contact

JERRY BEADES
SPOKESPERSON FOR THE LAND LEAGUE for info.

Is this statement true i wonder ?

My name is URL

I would like to see IW to cease trading and water to remain controlled by government/local auth

Stargate wrote: »

Was watching that develop , the end of the article says contact

JERRY BEADES
SPOKESPERSON FOR THE LAND LEAGUE for info.

Is this statement true i wonder ?

I'm gonna say no

The Garda have been told to stand down

That just sounds like such a bullshitty thing to say!

Irish Steve

I would like to see IW to cease trading and water to remain controlled by government/local auth

Tinkersbell wrote: »

Is it normal practice in other countries to have a USC on top of all other income taxes?
Is it normal to have a 23% vat rate?
Is it normal to have to shell out the guts of €1,000 per child on books, uniform etc to send them to school each year?
Is it normal to pay €50 to visit a GP?
Is it normal to be charged an illegal VRT on a car, and VAT on top of that?
Are all these things normal in other countries? Take our nearest neighbour, the one that's referenced on here a lot, the UK.
Are all these things normal there?

Can't answer all of the above instantly and in full, but here goes.

USC is a specific name for Ireland, and it's hard to be sure, but there are "special" charges in a number of countries

VAT rates across Europe vary between (standard rate) 18 and 25 %, so yes, a 23% VAT rate is not exceptional when looked at in comparison to the rest of Europe, the vast majority of the rates in Europe are between 21 and 25%

School uniforms are a cost in every country, books vary, and it's changing here, my daughter's school have started a book rental scheme this year, and realistically, all second level schools should be using computer based books at this stage, on either laptop or tablets, the whole issue of dragging many kilos of books around is outdated and inappropriate.

VRT. Not going to defend that at all, I just wish someone with the funds to do it would challenge it in the courts, or the European courts. and get the politicians put back in their place. VRT is a cause of accidents, as is the crazy policy of charging road tax based on engine size, the combination of these 2 taxes means that we get poor spec underpowered cars in this country compared to other countries in order to make them saleable with the extra tax.

VAT on cars is standard across Europe,

Medical fees, it's supposed to be changing, it isn't at the moment because the whole health issue is a tangled mess that needs sorting as urgently as IW, in that the HSE is a similar quango that should never have been created in the way it was, but the relevant politicians didn't have the cojones to take the unions on over the over staffing that resulted from merging 8 health boards into the HSE.

Crazy, we're a country of less than 5 million, 8 health boards was insane levels of inappropriate management, and merging it into the HSE solved nothing. It needs to be changed, as does the whole crazy process of charging insurance companies for hospital treatments etc, the cost of all that bureaucracy is crazy, as is the cost of administering all the different health insurers, and all it does is push up the total cost of providing health services.

It needs to be fundamentally changed to get rid of the waste, and make health free at the point of delivery, with the manner in which it is funded being changed to remove the unnecessary overhead of the VHI and private insurers with their associated (significant) costs. Then there's the issue of getting full value for money from the specialised sectors of health, which in most cases means that they should be available 24/7, which means a massive culture change for the service providers, as many areas don't operate outside of 9 to 5 Monday to Friday. If that aspect was changed, we'd see better results all round.

As I've mentioned earlier, Ireland is the most expensive country in Europe for many items because of the massive cost of importing just about everything across that 60 or so miles of water from the UK, or even further from the rest of Europe. That's before we then start paying the mark up for items imposed by the local suppliers, which in some cases are absurd, and I will be the first to admit that I order a lot more from outside of Ireland, simply because I either can't get the item here from stock, or if I can, it's twice the price of the item from other places. If it's not in stock, I don't see paying a supposed local stockist a significant margin for ordering the item in from outside of Ireland when I can do exactly the same for half the price and the same delivery time scale.

The whole IW issue has stirred the country up in a way that's caught many by surprise, and in many respects, it is a good thing, and if it means that people become more politically aware, and start asking the questions, rather than just accepting the candidates put forward by the parties, maybe, just maybe, Ireland has at last matured and become a democracy that can regain control of it's democracy, which would mean that for the first time in a long time, the people will regain the power that had been usurped by the political elite. It's not before time, but it's taken some pretty crass mistakes by that same political elite to get people to rise up and say "enough is enough".