**ALL THINGS IRISH WATER/WATER RELATED** Part 2 - MOD WARNING IN OP

Little CuChulainn

I would like to see IW to cease trading and water to remain controlled by government/local auth

tayto lover wrote: »

You won't get a clear answer from any of the pro-water charge on that. Nor will they comment on the high rates of VRT and VAT we pay. Nor will they comment on the PRSI we pay for which we get zilch.

Excluding the medical card, prescription subsidies, hospital fee cap of €100, free eye tests, free dental check ups and back to school allowance there are a few other things.

The problem is that you are likely a PAYE worker and so you will see very little of the above but pay for it anyway. In much the same way you currently pay for water you don't use. You are disgruntled because you think you don't get value for money. You are right. Other people get it instead because we are an overly generous welfare state where some people can give all and get nothing and others can give nothing and take all. And we will continue to be so as long as we have such a narrow tax base.

listermint

I do not want to pay for water in any way

Going Forward wrote: »

I presume you mean broadening the tax base, and if you do that hasn't actually occurred.

What has occurred is that the PAYE worker will pay more for the same water.
The concessions have watered down the LPT and water charges.

As full cost recovery appears to have been dropped, any revenues raised by water charges will not chip much off any deficit for the trouble involved.

He is using trendy Leo Vradkar words.

Broaden the base

Pay your Way

Extend the catchment.


All buzzwords to describe nothing of actual content.

twowheelsgood

tayto lover wrote: »

So the answer is always more taxes and charges?
The workers and home owners who are now struggling have to pay the debt while the elite award themselves bonuses and look after their cronies and our Govt pay themselves to go to work.

Yes indeed. Great country.

I'm not clear on what your answer is. Do you favour adding to the 200 billion debt with its 8 billion interest per year or not?

And do you have an idea as to how we might reduce the deficit?

Going Forward

I do not want to pay for water in any way

dxhound2005 wrote: »

It doesn't matter. Where there is no meter operational, the house will be issued with an unmetered bill.

Unless there is enough evidence for a prosecution there would be no point in anyone going to court. Irish Water would have to report the crime to the Gardai for them to investigate. It would be just the same as any other random act of vandalism, plenty of which go unprosecuted for lack of evidence.

I'm not sure how their system will cope with a previously read meter now not registering.
So they'll just slip in a new meter no call out charges?

dxhound2005

tayto lover wrote: »

Christ we could all go out to celebrate that day. It would be fantastic.












If we had any money left to celebrate with.

We now have bin charges, property tax and water charges along with the other taxes which always existed. Just like any normal country. The 1977 experiment failed miserably long ago. Why do people still try to defend it?

All countries have to deal with tax evasion and the Revenue defaulters lists are evidence of how our authorities are trying to catch the offenders. But the good news is that it is very hard to evade property tax and utility bills. Having PPS numbers linked to water bills will stop people upping sticks without paying and then getting a new supply somewhere else without discharging the outstanding debt.

listermint

I do not want to pay for water in any way

dxhound2005 wrote: »

We now have bin charges, property tax and water charges along with the other taxes which always existed. Just like any normal country. The 1977 experiment failed miserably long ago. Why do people still try to defend it?

All countries have to deal with tax evasion and the Revenue defaulters lists are evidence of how our authorities are trying to catch the offenders. But the good news is that it is very hard to evade property tax and utility bills. Having PPS numbers linked to water bills will stop people upping sticks without paying and then getting a new supply somewhere else without discharging the outstanding debt.

But what about broadening the base, what about the deficit. You were starting out on a good point there until it was pointed out to you that all 'normal' countries run deficits. Credit is healthy.


You are on a mad roll of not answering posts as soon as your called out on them (factually)

listermint

I do not want to pay for water in any way

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

Excluding the medical card, prescription subsidies, hospital fee cap of €100, free eye tests, free dental check ups and back to school allowance there are a few other things.

The problem is that you are likely a PAYE worker and so you will see very little of the above but pay for it anyway. In much the same way you currently pay for water you don't use. You are disgruntled because you think you don't get value for money. You are right. Other people get it instead because we are an overly generous welfare state where some people can give all and get nothing and others can give nothing and take all. And we will continue to be so as long as we have such a narrow tax base.

We dont have a narrow tax base. Stop using terms you dont have a clue about. Did you hear that from Enda on the news. It has been proven time and time and time again. We DONT have a narrow tax base.

moxin

I do not want to pay for water in any way

The Revenue cannot chase you for not paying the water charges. (or for any other utility bill)

cajonlardo

dxhound2005 wrote: »

We now have bin charges, property tax and water charges along with the other taxes which always existed. Just like any normal country. The 1977 experiment failed miserably long ago. Why do people still try to defend it?

All countries have to deal with tax evasion and the Revenue defaulters lists are evidence of how our authorities are trying to catch the offenders. But the good news is that it is very hard to evade property tax and utility bills. Having PPS numbers linked to water bills will stop people upping sticks without paying and then getting a new supply somewhere else without discharging the outstanding debt.

I'm sold completely. Let me sign up. But wait a sec....

Is there still a man named in A Tribunal report whose is up to his neck in dirty deals and a good friend of F.G creaming off chunks?

Are there still F.G cronies who are ex councilors/local officials and who are on massive pensions and who received massive golden handshakes and are now on huge salaries on the board?

Is it still likely that this whole show will be handed to privateers?

Bollllllllox, this thread might be part 2 and the old one may have 10,000 posts but we really didn't move beyond the first page did we?

tayto lover

twowheelsgood wrote: »

I'm not clear on what your answer is. Do you favour adding to the 200 billion debt with its 8 billion interest per year or not?

And do you have an idea as to how we might reduce the deficit?

Indeed I do and have often expressed some of them here like -

1. Stop paying Child Allowance to millionaires and people who earn over 100K and people who don't live here.
2. Stop paying Free Legal Aid for serial offenders.
3. Cut politicians wages and allowances. They can pay to get to work the same as I do.
4. Sack half of the needless administrators in the HSE.
5. Review all the tax breaks availed of by the super rich for historic mansions etc like Dicey gets.
6. Increase the Corporate Tax Rate by 1.5%, feck all will leave and very few like Apple etc are paying it at the current rate anyway as we have learned.
7. Increase the tax on betting.
8. Tax text messages at 1 or 2 cents per message.

Would be a good start.

_Kaiser_

I do not want to pay for water in any way

moxin wrote: »

The Revenue cannot chase you for not paying the water charges. (or for any other utility bill)

.. at the moment. Rules/legislation can be easily changed though as we've seen.

However, if they do pull that stunt (and it may happen yet depending on how far FG want to take this), it will hopefully not only be the end of IW, but the current government as well!

dxhound2005

Going Forward wrote: »

I presume you mean broadening the tax base, and if you do that hasn't actually occurred.

What has occurred is that the PAYE worker will pay more for the same water.
The concessions have watered down the LPT and water charges.

As full cost recovery appears to have been dropped, any revenues raised by water charges will not chip much off any deficit for the trouble involved.

Normally the argument is that they try to catch us by starting off with a low charge but then it will be €1000 or €2000 in a few years' time. Once the system is up and running for a few years it can operate the same as any other normal country. This has happened with bin charges and is seemingly now happening with property tax. It is always good to take the long view. Taking the long view into the past it would have been better if the property tax which incorporated water and refuse services had not been abolished in 1977. Then there would have been no need for separate service charges when the folly of that decision became very soon apparent.

My own preference as I have said before would be to charge whatever is on the meter. None of the faffing around with PPS numbers and how many children in the house. And where there is no meter, a charge linked to the property tax. This is just one of the various systems which operate elsewhere.

All of the above is predicated on Sinn Fein not being in power in 2016 and abolishing property tax and water charges again.

tayto lover

dxhound2005 wrote: »

We now have bin charges, property tax and water charges along with the other taxes which always existed. Just like any normal country. The 1977 experiment failed miserably long ago. Why do people still try to defend it?

All countries have to deal with tax evasion and the Revenue defaulters lists are evidence of how our authorities are trying to catch the offenders. But the good news is that it is very hard to evade property tax and utility bills. Having PPS numbers linked to water bills will stop people upping sticks without paying and then getting a new supply somewhere else without discharging the outstanding debt.

What are the rates of VRT, VAT, PRSI etc in these "normal" countries?
Have they levies?

VinLieger

I would like to see IW to cease trading and water to remain controlled by government/local auth

cajonlardo wrote: »

I'm sold completely. Let me sign up. But wait a sec....

Is there still a man named in A Tribunal report whose is up to his neck in dirty deals and a good friend of F.G creaming off chunks?

Are there still F.G cronies who are ex councilors/local officials and who are on massive pensions and who received massive golden handshakes and are now on huge salaries on the board?

Is it still likely that this whole show will be handed to privateers?

Bollllllllox, this thread might be part 2 and the old one may have 10,000 posts but we really didn't move beyond the first page did we?

How does continuing to bring up deeds past actually help fix and pay for the water infrastructure of the country?

Yes mistakes and possible very corrupt decisions were made but again pointing finger's does not actually fix any problem's and seems to be something the anti-charges crowd just cannot wrap their heads around.

No matter how much you might not want to believe it our water system is maybe 10-20 years away from being fubar with boil water notices country wide so how do we go forward about fixing it that doesn't involve hypothesising what we should have done and instead is rather about what we should do now?

Wurly

I agree with metered water charges

Could we add a new poll to this thread also? I'd be interested to see if anyone's minds have changed one way or the other.

_Kaiser_

I do not want to pay for water in any way

VinLieger wrote: »

How does continuing to bring up deeds past actually help fix and pay for the water infrastructure of the country?

Yes mistakes and possible very corrupt decisions were made but again pointing finger's does not actually fix any problem's and seems to be something the anti-charges crowd just cannot wrap their heads around.

No matter how much you might not want to believe it our water system is maybe 10-20 years away from being fubar with boil water notices country wide so how do we go forward about fixing it that doesn't involve hypothesising what we should have done and instead is rather about what we should do now?

You just don't get it do you - or you're deliberately choosing not to (personally I'm guessing the latter)

- Most people who have a problem with this mess, don't actually have a problem with the concept of paying for water

- Most people know the infrastructure is a mess and that it will cost more money than they presently get through general taxation to fix

- People DO have a major problem however with paying for another incompetent quango stuffed with government hangers-on and which has a bonus structure that proposes to reward underperforming staff - something which would get them put on Performance Improvement Plans in the real world

- People DO have a problem with the threats and blackmail used by this incompetent entity to try and get people to register as "customers"

- People DO have a problem with an entity that has already shown itself to be incompetent in handling people's personal data while demanding more of it

- People DO have a problem with a government that - despite all the above - still seems (at cabinet/senior level anyway) intent on pushing this through

Thankfully though, the deeper Enda, Joan and the others dig in, the more they split their own parties. They won't have to worry about protests escalating further the way things are going.. their own colleagues will force an end to it yet - because regardless of party affiliation, there's nothing a TD in this country values more than their seat at the table.

gladrags

I do not want to pay for water in any way

tayto lover wrote: »

Indeed I do and have often expressed some of them here like -

1. Stop paying Child Allowance to millionaires and people who earn over 100K and people who don't live here.
2. Stop paying Free Legal Aid for serial offenders.
3. Cut politicians wages and allowances. They can pay to get to work the same as I do.
4. Sack half of the needless administrators in the HSE.
5. Review all the tax breaks availed of by the super rich for historic mansions etc like Dicey gets.
6. Increase the Corporate Tax Rate by 1.5%, feck all will leave and very few like Apple etc are paying it at the current rate anyway as we have learned.
7. Increase the tax on betting.
8. Tax text messages at 1 or 2 cents per message.

Would be a good start.

Levy the banks and financial institutions.

That's a very reasonable starter.

12 Eu countries are introducing a levy,in response to the damage done.Payback time for banks.

All countries in EU were invited to join earlier this year.Noonan said no.

Funny how the whingers who want the taxpayer to pay,never quote this when they are on about other countries.

twowheelsgood

tayto lover wrote: »

Indeed I do and have often expressed some of them here like -

1. Stop paying Child Allowance to millionaires and people who earn over 100K and people who don't live here.
2. Stop paying Free Legal Aid for serial offenders.
3. Cut politicians wages and allowances. They can pay to get to work the same as I do.
4. Sack half of the needless administrators in the HSE.
5. Review all the tax breaks availed of by the super rich for historic mansions etc like Dicey gets.
6. Increase the Corporate Tax Rate by 1.5%, feck all will leave and very few like Apple etc are paying it at the current rate anyway as we have learned.
7. Increase the tax on betting.
8. Tax text messages at 1 or 2 cents per message.

Would be a good start.

Those measure seem to range from the symbolic (cut politicians wages) to the counterproductive or downright dangerous (mess with corporation rates).

The only one that would seem to generate any kind of real savings would be your idea to sack some people. And I expect the government might encounter a few difficulties if they were to do down that route!

Have you any estimates as to the value of these measures? What would your guess be as to their collective worth?

Tinkersbell

I do not want to pay for water in any way

gladrags wrote: »

Levy the banks and financial institutions.

That's a very reasonable starter.

12 Eu countries are introducing a levy,in response to the damage done.Payback time for banks.

All countries in EU were invited to join earlier this year.Noonan said no.

Funny how the whingers who want the taxpayer to pay,never quote this when they are on about other c

Comparing Ireland to other countries is a one way street by the looks of it.
There's something deep in the psyche of people who do this continually, maybe in their heads they're still doffing the cap?
It's a sure sign of a lack of esteem and of confidence and maybe a fear of being different or even a yearning to be the same, when it suits.

Frank O. Pinion

Hey dxhound2005, can you tell me what happened in 1977 with water charges? I don't think you've mentioned it yet.

tayto lover

twowheelsgood wrote: »

Those measure seem to range from the symbolic (cut politicians wages) to the counterproductive or downright dangerous (mess with corporation rates).

The only one that would seem to generate any kind of real savings would be your idea to sack some people. And I expect the government might encounter a few difficulties if they were to do down that route!

Have you any estimates as to the value of these measures? What would your guess be as to their collective worth?

Cutting politicians' wages would go some way to letting people know that they are suffering the same pain as them.
Corporate tax will be raised soon anyway regardless of what the Govt think. Their masters in Europe will see to it.
Sacking the non-productive element in the HSE and replacing them with nurses which are badly needed would be a good thing. More Indians, less chiefs.
I don't know how much my proposals would bring in. Not an accountant.

dxhound2005

Frank O. Pinion wrote: »

Hey dxhound2005, can you tell me what happened in 1977 with water charges? I don't think you've mentioned it yet.

You caught me out there, very observant. The legislation as you well know was enacted in 1978. You can refresh your memory of the time by a little light reading here. It is a wonderful piece of parliamentary draughtsmanship, much beloved of socialists today.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1978/en/act/pub/0035/print.html



LOCAL GOVERNMENT (FINANCIAL PROVISIONS) ACT, 1978

AN ACT TO PROVIDE FOR CERTAIN RELIEFS IN RELATION TO THE PAYMENT OF RATES, TO MAKE OTHER PROVISIONS WITH RESPECT OR IN RELATION TO RATES, TO MAKE PROVISIONS REGARDING LOCAL GOVERNMENT, AND TO MAKE OTHER PROVISIONS CONNECTED WITH THE FOREGOING. [20th December, 1978]

Wurly

I agree with metered water charges

I know this has been said already but Sligo County Council have passed a motion to abolish water charges. Excellent news.

http://sligoweekender.ie/2014/11/06/water-water-everywhere-council-votes-charges/

And people say protesting does no good.:)

cajonlardo

VinLieger wrote: »

How does continuing to bring up deeds past actually help fix and pay for the water infrastructure of the country?

Yes mistakes and possible very corrupt decisions were made but again pointing finger's does not actually fix any problem's and seems to be something the anti-charges crowd just cannot wrap their heads around.

No matter how much you might not want to believe it our water system is maybe 10-20 years away from being fubar with boil water notices country wide so how do we go forward about fixing it that doesn't involve hypothesising what we should have done and instead is rather about what we should do now?

Who is looking back?
These things are staring you in the face right this minute !

Try saying sorry Denis , but the people say not this time, fcuk off with your dirty deeds. Cut out the corruption. Fire the cronies. Create a transparent and fair structure to any future replacement to I.W then come back and see what will be accepted. Try pushing this and you will continue to be told where to go.

dxhound2005

Wurly wrote: »

Sligo County Council have passed a motion to abolish water charges.

http://sligoweekender.ie/2014/11/06/water-water-everywhere-council-votes-charges/

And people say protesting does no good.:)

We got the good news from Monday a few hours ago here. But since there are only 3 FG councillors and no Labour out of 18 it is hardly earthshattering.

Creative Juices

tayto lover wrote: »

Indeed I do and have often expressed some of them here like -

1. Stop paying Child Allowance to millionaires and people who earn over 100K and people who don't live here.
2. Stop paying Free Legal Aid for serial offenders.
3. Cut politicians wages and allowances. They can pay to get to work the same as I do.
4. Sack half of the needless administrators in the HSE.
5. Review all the tax breaks availed of by the super rich for historic mansions etc like Dicey gets.
6. Increase the Corporate Tax Rate by 1.5%, feck all will leave and very few like Apple etc are paying it at the current rate anyway as we have learned.
7. Increase the tax on betting.
8. Tax text messages at 1 or 2 cents per message.

Would be a good start.

Good list Tayto Lover.
#4 would save a fortune and hardly impact on front line services.

Wurly

I agree with metered water charges

dxhound2005 wrote: »

We got the good news from Monday a few hours ago here. But since there are only 3 FG councillors and no Labour out of 18 it is hardly earthshattering.

True. But hopefully this is one of many ripples. The point is, the county council acted because of the protests. So protesting works!

dxhound2005

Wurly wrote: »

True. But hopefully this is one of many ripples. The point is, the county council acted because of the protests. So protesting works!

They have no power in the matter. There were 17 present out of the 18 and 14 voted in favour of abolishing IW. Must be a bit difficult on the anti side trying to outdo each other as to who is the most anti.

_Kaiser_

I do not want to pay for water in any way

dxhound2005 wrote: »

They have no power in the matter.

Something I think FG and LAB will have to get used to again very shortly

the groutch

Leitrim County Council passed a similar motion unanimously, even with the county having 4 FG councillors.