Lena Dunham Autobiography, Allegations of Abusing Sister.

CIARAN_BOYLE · 03-11-2014 10:29pm

The sisters twitter today.

2day, like every other day, is a good day to think about how we police the sexualities of young women, queer, and trans people

As a queer person: i'm committed to people narrating their own experiences, determining for themselves what has and has not been harmful

heteronormativity deems certain behaviours harmful, and others "normal"; the state and media are always invested in maintaining that

RDM_83 again · 03-11-2014 10:35pm

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

The sisters twitter today.

2day, like every other day, is a good day to think about how we police the sexualities of young women, queer, and trans people

As a queer person: i'm committed to people narrating their own experiences, determining for themselves what has and has not been harmful

heteronormativity deems certain behaviours harmful, and others "normal"; the state and media are always invested in maintaining that

There's plenty of victims of serious heterosexual abuse that would maintain the same, does that mean we should listen to them , Yes, does that mean we have to accept what they say is right after we have listened to them, No.
Does being LGBT change that, I can't think of logical reason why it should?

I'm open to correction but just because others may seek to police the behavior of LGBT people as adults doesn't mean that concern about actions on a child are automatically coming from a negative viewpoint.

Iranoutofideas · 03-11-2014 10:41pm

Sweet jesus they really are warped.

03-11-2014 10:45pm

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

The sisters twitter today.

2day, like every other day, is a good day to think about how we police the sexualities of young women, queer, and trans people

As a queer person: i'm committed to people narrating their own experiences, determining for themselves what has and has not been harmful

heteronormativity deems certain behaviours harmful, and others "normal"; the state and media are always invested in maintaining that

Unfortunately when she was an infant or a seven year old, she didn't get to narrate her experiences with the same articulacy or state her feelings on being exploited to satisfy her sisters curiosity or emotional needs. Presumably she's ok with her childhood interactions being made public to underline her siblings honest and edgy persona. At least I hope she is, since Durham is employing the self same media to promote her autobiography that she seems reluctant to be judged by.

One year olds, or seven year olds don't get to decide for themselves if they've been harmed, it's the job of older people to protect them from their own innocence. It's the job of society to 'police the sexuality' of anyone who exploits a kid.

FouxDaFaFa · 03-11-2014 10:50pm

I don't have kids. I don't know what normal behaviour is for kids in this situation. But I do find it disturbing.

I think Dunham is talented but I'm starting to have a hard time separating her and the fictional character she plays on "Girls", Hannah. Hannah is an unbelievable narcissist who thinks she is the voice of a generation and that every mundane, uncomfortable detail of her life is potential art that people will find fascinating. I always assumed Hannah was a kind of satire of Dunham herself, implying Dunham is aware of her faults and her neuroses.

Dunham chose to write these passages about her sister in her book. No-one is misquoting her. So her shocked anger at people seizing on this seems naive at best.

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5 · 03-11-2014 11:16pm

Some of that stuff is at the very least skirting the realms of being stuff that could really bother someone in their later life. An awful lot of abuse occurs between siblings, and just because the person doesn't realise the harm they may be causing at the time doesn't mean that it's not something they should feel remorse for as an adult. That said, sometimes a lot of the reason someone might be damaged by things that occurred between them and an older sibling is precisely because of the disgust and shame people tend to feel whenever the issue of children behaving sexually comes up, the question is buried or guilt is turned against oneself, people torture themselves because they're not sure what they remember and they don't feel they can broach the subject. The Dunhams appear to have a very open and honest relationship, perhaps partly because of that no harm seems to have occurred here. It's her attitude about it and her reaction to being criticised that's the most troubling thing, for sure.

Gatling · 03-11-2014 11:28pm

tritium wrote: »

You should probably reread the thread properly then, she wasn't 7 when a lot of this happened.

Link exactly where it states this ,

Not what some posters are claiming but actual links where this person says how old she was at various events ,

Im personally only going by the single page article thats thats the shock headline and was posted and fixed by a mod

seamus · 04-11-2014 12:08am

Gatling wrote: »

Link exactly where it states this ,

Not what some posters are claiming but actual links where this person says how old she was at various events ,

Im personally only going by the single page article thats thats the shock headline and was posted and fixed by a mod

The above link actually show a page from the book. No, she didn't bribe her sister to kiss her while she masturbated.
It's clear from the part quoted that she craved attention from her younger sister. Not sexual attention, just closeness and affection. And believe it or not, parents sometimes "bribe" their children for a kiss too.

I'm not going to say that her description of the whole thing isn't a bit odd, but it doesn't seem like anything worth getting ones knickers twisted about.

RDM_83 again · 04-11-2014 12:16am

Emerie Hissing Liar wrote: »

The Dunhams appear to have a very open and honest relationship, perhaps partly because of that no harm seems to have occurred here. It's her attitude about it and her reaction to being criticised that's the most troubling thing, for sure.

Thats the operative word here though, if these events were ongoing at a later age its more than just a childs behavior. I mean consent is a massive issue these days, if this was ongoing at in the later stage (as is implied by them sharing a bed) I don't see how people can condone or explain away masturbating in extremely close presence to a child*.
Posters that are normally have such strong views on issues of consent seem to have a willingness to explain away this behavior or play it down its just bizare, I'm not actually trying to have a go at the PC crowd here I just don't get it

It doesn't matter that she may be a pop culture icon that enjoys being edgy, it doesn't matter that her now sister feels that peoples concerns are just trying to enforce a hetero-normative outlook (I honestly don't understand what she means by this actually, the reaction isn't to do with the same sex aspect at all, if anything the reaction is probably muted because its two girls involved). When there is an extremely young child involved none of these thing matter some stuff just isn't ok (and if that makes me conservative so be it)

* I'm highlighting this because people seem to be brushing away from this point.

Iranoutofideas · 04-11-2014 12:26am

Did anyone catch her bizarre appearance on Graham Norton the other night?

She shared a story about thinking she was petting her hairless cat when in fact it was her mother's vagina.

Sounds like a perfectly normal household.....

--LOS-- · 04-11-2014 12:36am

I'm no fan of Lena Dunham but the reaction here is strange, although I'm not really too surprised by the reaction either, I do have a bit more self-awareness than Dunham!

I've definitely done some weird things as a child, I'm sure many people have, can you really all afford to be so judgemental?

My name is URL · 04-11-2014 12:38am

--LOS-- wrote: »

I'm no fan of Lena Dunham but the reaction here is strange, although I'm not really too surprised by the reaction either, I do have a bit more self-awareness than Dunham!

I've definitely done some weird things as a child, I'm sure many people have, can you really all afford to be so judgemental?

She done it until she was 17 though.. and then wrote a book about it!

Iranoutofideas · 04-11-2014 12:39am

--LOS-- wrote: »

I'm no fan of Lena Dunham but the reaction here is strange, although I'm not really too surprised by the reaction either, I do have a bit more self-awareness than Dunham!

I've definitely done some weird things as a child, I'm sure many people have, can you really all afford to be so judgemental?

By her own admission - her actions were like those of "a sexual predator."

We've all done strange stuff as kids but would you describe it like that?

She's fcuked in the head.

--LOS-- · 04-11-2014 12:40am

Iranoutofideas wrote: »

Did anyone catch her bizarre appearance on Graham Norton the other night?

She shared a story about thinking she was petting her hairless cat when in fact it was her mother's vagina.

Sounds like a perfectly normal household.....

she was speaking figuratively about a weird chat-up line there afaik

--LOS-- · 04-11-2014 12:46am

My name is URL wrote: »

She done it until she was 17 though.. and then wrote a book about it!

First it was 7, then it was 13, now 17, which is it

Iranoutofideas wrote: »

By her own admission - her actions were like those of "a sexual predator."

We've all done strange stuff as kids but would you describe it like that?

She's fcuked in the head.

Well you can argue over her poor choice of words, she either lacks self-awareness or she really doesn't care about being brutally honest. The relevant thing here is whether her actions were really that unusual or appropriate.

Gatling · 04-11-2014 1:54am

--LOS-- wrote: »

First it was 7, then it was 13, now 17, which is it

Well you can argue over her poor choice of words, she either lacks self-awareness or she really doesn't care about being brutally honest. The relevant thing here is whether her actions were really that unusual or appropriate.

Every other poster seems to be making it up as they go along

Iranoutofideas · 04-11-2014 2:03am

No you're just not paying attention. The passages are out there. See for yourself.

The Strawman Argument · 04-11-2014 2:10am

--LOS-- wrote: »

or she really doesn't care about being brutally honest.

I really think her OCD plays a part here. It doesn't really get stated as much as I'd expect regarding her antics in general but it does sound like she can be pretty bad with it (to the point that she felt the need rather clumsily crowbar it into the second season of her show for damn near no reason at all!

)

Wouldn't label myself OCD or anything, but I've definitely unintentionally phrased and overstated things about myself really f*cking badly a good few times in my life for no reason other than an obsessive need to ensure to myself that I've disclosed everything. Can easily imagine her being like "hmm, is that honest enough? ...I better elaborate!" repeatedly until she's made it all sound as bad as possible. The fact she's effectively been encouraged to do exactly that for years wouldn't help.

Honestly, her whole family situation is so utterly alien to me that I've no clue how to form an opinion on any of it so I'm not gonna even bother. The stuff at 17 reads pretty bad but a lot of that could be down to the phrasing and her sense of humour.

_Whimsical_ · 04-11-2014 2:36am

Gatling wrote: »

Every other poster seems to be making it up as they go along

I read the book,she was 7.

She was an odd child, precocious, neurotic, seeing therapists from an early age, experiencing serious psychological problems. Her natural curiosity that every child has about genitalia just expressed itself in an odd way. She just looked at her sister, she probably saw those parts of her body everyday when her nappy was being changed. I'm sure as a child she didn't consider just looking such a weird thing to do.

I think as an adult it's very hard to relate to a childs veiw of nudity, they see little siblings naked all the time, they see them using potties in the sitting room when they're being toilet trained, having nappies changed, they don't see a personal boundary because there isn't one for little kids. I think when she said it seeming like weird behaviour she was looking at it from an adults perspective and playing it for a laugh. It was clear from the context in the the book that it wasn't a sexual thing at all though.

Small kids love pulling other kids pants down, next we will be hearing that's sexual abuse to. You have to just understand that kids will be kids and that odd kids will be a bit odder. Intention is paramount in defining abuse I think, saying otherwise degrades the experience of peoplte who have actually suffered real abuse.

Bipolar Joe · 04-11-2014 2:39am

--LOS-- wrote: »

I'm no fan of Lena Dunham but the reaction here is strange, although I'm not really too surprised by the reaction either, I do have a bit more self-awareness than Dunham!

I've definitely done some weird things as a child, I'm sure many people have, can you really all afford to be so judgemental?

I remember when I learned how to tie a knot. I would tie anything into a knot if it was able to be tied in a knot. I once tied about £50 worth of wool to various trees, and tied myself to a bath. Then I got into drawing Christmas trees. I don't even like Christmas, but I drew them everywhere. We had to repaint so many walls because of my trees. I took to sleeping in the dog's bed with him, because I was worried he was lonely and wasn't allowed up stairs.

Never pried open my Sister's legs to get a gawp at her vag', jerked off while she lay sleeping next to me or bribed her into kissing me. Maybe I just had a weird child hood. I mean, who doesn't like Christmas?

Turtwig · 04-11-2014 3:15am

The first most obvious thing to point out is that these are quotes. Quotes can always appear worse than the context which they were intended and meant. You need the whole passage to discern whether's she's guilty of something sinister. On the face of it it all appears rather weird.

FouxDaFaFa wrote: »

I think Dunham is talented but I'm starting to have a hard time separating her and the fictional character she plays on "Girls", Hannah. Hannah is an unbelievable narcissist who thinks she is the voice of a generation and that every mundane, uncomfortable detail of her life is potential art that people will find fascinating. I always assumed Hannah was a kind of satire of Dunham herself, implying Dunham is aware of her faults and her neuroses.

This is I think the nub of it. She appears to be constantly self examining and satirising herself. Most narrators wouldn't be so brutally descriptive (It'd be lovely if Jimmy Saville et al were) about their past actions. This book appears to be a 'raw' account of her own life. (The phrase 'brutal honesty' comes to mind. That's assuming, of course, that she is being wholly truthful.) As if it's being forensically examined closely by herself. Her shock is probably because what she believes to be clear intentions aren't necessarily clear to the audience. That applies to the tv show too. They certainly aren't clear to me! Many of that audience, won't even read the full passage but nevertheless provide judgement on her based on the quotes. This is after all the age of click bait media, quote bytes and outrage - most of the time without establishing the actual facts on the matter. The audience at the very least owes her that but alas most will have made up their minds either way long before that.

A Neurotic · 04-11-2014 4:31am

Turtwig wrote: »

The first most obvious thing to point out is that these are quotes. Quotes can always appear worse than the context which they were intended and meant. You need the whole passage to discern whether's she's guilty of something sinister. On the face of it it all appears rather weird.

This is I think the nub of it. She appears to be constantly self examining and satirising herself. Most narrators wouldn't be so brutally descriptive (It'd be lovely if Jimmy Saville et al were) about their past actions. This book appears to be a 'raw' account of her own life. (The phrase 'brutal honesty' comes to mind. That's assuming, of course, that she is being wholly truthful.) As if it's being forensically examined closely by herself. Her shock is probably because what she believes to be clear intentions aren't necessarily clear to the audience. That applies to the tv show too. They certainly aren't clear to me! Many of that audience, won't even read the full passage but nevertheless provide judgement on her based on the quotes. This is after all the age of click bait media, quote bytes and outrage - most of the time without establishing the actual facts on the matter. The audience at the very least owes her that but alas most will have made up their minds either way long before that.

You've just summed up this thread absolutely perfectly.

RDM_83 again · 04-11-2014 8:29am

_Whimsical_ wrote: »

I read the book,she was 7.
.

This seems to be a consistent thing, why just the focus on the incident at 7, is it because its easier to explain away?

I shared a bed with my sister, Grace, until I was seventeen years old. She was afraid to sleep alone and would begin asking me around 5:00 P.M. every day whether she could sleep with me. I put on a big show of saying no, taking pleasure in watching her beg and sulk, but eventually I always relented. Her sticky, muscly little body thrashed beside me every night as I read Anne Sexton, watched reruns of SNL, sometimes even as I slipped my hand into my underwear to figure some stuff out.

Explain that please?She genuinely might not believe she displayed massively inappropriate behaviour at a minimum, but she also appears to believe that molestation jokes etc are ok because she's not a man so I doubt she's self aware.

incidentally she's apparently trying to quash this by legal threats,

tritium · 04-11-2014 8:45am

A Neurotic wrote: »

You've just summed up this thread absolutely perfectly.

I think it sums up most of AH perfectly. In terms of people putting their own spin on the law or what actually happened this thread is pretty mild.

Ficheall · 04-11-2014 9:22am

Iranoutofideas wrote: »

By her own admission - her actions were like those of "a sexual predator."

We've all done strange stuff as kids but would you describe it like that?

"Tom drove a dirty white van, just like a sexual predator."
Not humour which would be to everyone's taste, but not suggesting that Tom actually is a sexual predator either.

seamus · 04-11-2014 10:55am

RDM_83 again wrote: »

Explain that please?She genuinely might not believe she displayed massively inappropriate behaviour at a minimum, but she also appears to believe that molestation jokes etc are ok because she's not a man so I doubt she's self aware.

Explain what? She occasionally had a danger **** while her sister was in the bed beside her.

Seriously find me a teenager who didn't have a quickie with themselves in some horrendously inappropriate place and I'll show you a liar.

--LOS-- · 04-11-2014 11:37am

The Strawman Argument wrote: »

I really think her OCD plays a part here. It doesn't really get stated as much as I'd expect regarding her antics in general but it does sound like she can be pretty bad with it (to the point that she felt the need rather clumsily crowbar it into the second season of her show for damn near no reason at all! )

Wouldn't label myself OCD or anything, but I've definitely unintentionally phrased and overstated things about myself really f*cking badly a good few times in my life for no reason other than an obsessive need to ensure to myself that I've disclosed everything. Can easily imagine her being like "hmm, is that honest enough? ...I better elaborate!" repeatedly until she's made it all sound as bad as possible. The fact she's effectively been encouraged to do exactly that for years wouldn't help.

Honestly, her whole family situation is so utterly alien to me that I've no clue how to form an opinion on any of it so I'm not gonna even bother. The stuff at 17 reads pretty bad but a lot of that could be down to the phrasing and her sense of humour.

Her upbringing was unconventional, goes without saying. Anyone at all familiar with her knows about her OCD and her tendency to over-share, no surprises there. But aside from all that, focusing on just the anecdotes about her sister, are the allegations of abuse unfounded? I think so. Whether you like the girl or not is irrelevant, it's a bit too easy to come on and berate the girl and call her sick and disgusting as many people are doing........but how does the word abuse even come into it, surely that implies a moral awareness that a 7 year old doesn't have. I think 17 was a misprint online that's causing confusion.

Bipolar Joe wrote: »

I remember when I learned how to tie a knot. I would tie anything into a knot if it was able to be tied in a knot. I once tied about £50 worth of wool to various trees, and tied myself to a bath. Then I got into drawing Christmas trees. I don't even like Christmas, but I drew them everywhere. We had to repaint so many walls because of my trees. I took to sleeping in the dog's bed with him, because I was worried he was lonely and wasn't allowed up stairs.

Never pried open my Sister's legs to get a gawp at her vag', jerked off while she lay sleeping next to me or bribed her into kissing me. Maybe I just had a weird child hood. I mean, who doesn't like Christmas?

Well I meant weird things in a sexual context, that's what the thread is about so I'm not about to analyse your knots and trees obsession

Amazingfun · 04-11-2014 11:39am

Lena Dunham is simply disgusting. I hope she fades from view after this toddler-abusing episode but I guess that's unlikely....

RDM_83 again · 04-11-2014 11:42am

seamus wrote: »

Explain what? She occasionally had a danger **** while her sister was in the bed beside her.

Seriously find rme a teenager who didn't have a quickie with themselves in some horrendously inappropriate place and I'll show you a liar.

Thats a completely false analogy,a danger **** is grabbing a chance at a risky opportunity.

What she did was mastrobate while in close physical contact with a child and derived pleasure from it.
She wasn't forced to have her sister in her bed while this happened she enjoyed it, if she wanted privacy she could have easily got.it.

Do you honestly think that what she describes is normal behaviour.

Ficheall · 04-11-2014 11:54am

RDM_83 again wrote: »

What she did was mastrobate while in close physical contact with a child and derived pleasure from it.

It's pretty ambiguous (terribly written) in the book, and it's even ambiguous as you've written it.
I ate a bar of chocolate while I was doing my homework and I enjoyed it. Does this make me a fan of chocolate or a massive pervert?

RDM_83 again wrote: »

She wasn't forced to have her sister in her bed while this happened she enjoyed it, if she wanted privacy she could have easily got.it.

How do you know? Sometimes privacy is hard to come by when you're in the mood.

Lena Dunham Autobiography, Allegations of Abusing Sister.

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