Lena Dunham Autobiography, Allegations of Abusing Sister.

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RDM_83 again

Ficheall wrote: »

How do you know? Sometimes privacy is hard to come by when you're in the mood.

People seem to be forgetting the point that lack of privacy was not an issue, she grew up among a millionaire family FFS, she was not sharing a bed by necessity but by choice and that its inarguable that she enjoyed her sister sharing her bed (whether there was a sexual component or not)

I put on a big show of saying no, taking pleasure in watching her beg and sulk, but eventually I always relented

seamus wrote: »

You see now you're embellishing what was written in order to make the situation appear like some narrative that wasn't stated but that you would like to believe.

I think it's fair to say that people derive pleasure from masturbation. And some people derive additional pleasure from danger ****.

Horrifically inappropriate, of course. But the fact that a child was present beside her may be immaterial.

Its horrifically inappropriate at a minimum, it may be immaterial, its potentially something much more serious. Its interesting that you jump to the least serious conclusion in this case I'l admit its impossible to work out exactly what happened but my conclusions are no less valid than your "danger ****" theory, particularly when the sister has placed the criticism of this behavior in sexual terms.

_Whimsical_ wrote: »

In the book she mentions having "explored down there" while her sister was in her bed somewhere between the ages of 10-17. We don't know what age she was. She may have been 11 or 12. Her sister was completely unaware of it happening. There was no intent to harm her sister or use her for gratification. It was completely unrelated to her sisters presence.Her sister might as well have been in the next room.

Ok your missing the point that at age 13 she had previously used her much younger sister for sexual gratification/experimentation. While 13 is young this was not an interaction with a peer.

_Whimsical_ wrote: »

I think the part in bold illustrates the problem you are having. A sexual act that involves two people requires consent. A sexual act performed in the presense of another person where their participation is required in any sense, whether it be that the person doing the act is staring at another person while performing the act, is taking pleasure in the other persons proximity,is revealing themselves to another party, all those things would require consent and are a violation on some level in my opinion where they are forced. Those acts belong on a continuum of deviant behaviour.


However this wasn't a two party sexual act. Her sister was not the inspiration or the imaginary focus of the act, she was completely unaware. It didn't require consent.

How do you know this, you refute my point that I don't have evidence that the sister was a focus or additional factor in the act when at least I can point to the fact that 13 she was definitely a factor in certain actions.
Additionally the excerpt quoted implies that this was ongoing behavior over a number of years, do you maintain that over that period her sister was never aware of what was happening

Here's quite a sensible article on the issue.


Incidently there is actually a possibility the entire book is bullsh^t anyway (AFAIK its not actually considered as technically factually)

Iranoutofideas

Anyone else find it odd that it took a full month for this to come to light, despite her book being extensively reviewed in the media, certainly in what would be perceived as the "liberal media" in the states.

Nobody said a word. I'm no fan of right wing websites or politics but fair play to them for highlighting this creep.

If it was a male celebrity the likes of the HuffingtonPost would have a whole section dedicated to creating a ****storm concerning this. Dunham gets a pass though.

FairytaleGirl

For all the posters vilifying Lena RE the masturbating incident ... I wonder how many are parents who had sex while their kid slept in the cot close to the bed ... ?

Gatling

FairytaleGirl wrote: »

For all the posters vilifying Lena RE the masturbating incident ... I wonder how many are parents who had sex while their kid slept in the cot close to the bed ... ?

Don't say that the whole place will go up in flames

Scannal

I can't speak for everyone else but it wasn't just the masterbation in the same bed that seemed disturbing. She was bribing her with candy to kiss her, she let her watch stuff on the tv if she relaxed on her, sounds creepy. Taking joy in telling her bad news like her granddad died so she could get to touch and hold her. Saying she was doing anything a sexual predator would do to woo her. This wasn't when she was 7 by the way. It all seems a bit sick and why did she put it in a book?

Sand

Yeah, that's something Lena Dunhams defenders seem unwilling to acknowledge: it is the grooming and manipulation by a significantly older sibling that is distinctly creepy. It isn't a situation of two similar aged kids both exploring, experimenting or playing: its a story of one older sibling exploiting a younger sibling. A younger sibling who simply couldnt give consent for what happened.

Grooming is a crime in the US. It doesn't require any actual sexual contact to take place for a conviction to be secured.

Maybe some might say what Dunham did is not a provable crime as such. Fair enough. It is very weird and worrying behaviour which she chose to publish about herself and people are reacting appropriately to it by considering it weird and worrying.

_Whimsical_

RDM_83 again wrote: »

Ok your missing the point that at age 13 she had previously used her much younger sister for sexual gratification/experimentation. While 13 is young this was not an interaction with a peer.

This quite frankly is not true. I read the book, I know from what you're saying here that you did not.
As a child she adored her sister, wanted to lavish her with affection, infact she mentions her mum recalling a story of when the Grace ,the sister, was a toddler Lena used to ask " Mum can she tell people she is my baby and we can tell people she is your sister instead". Some of her favourite times as a little kid were when Grace came and sat by her watching tv and fell asleep leaning against her , thats what she means by "relax on me" below. Grace however was never an affectionate child, neither with Lena or her parents, and Lena wished she was a little girl who loved cuddling and hugs, a little girl who might be the friend this odd little girl never had.
The "sexual gratification" you refer to is outlined here in Lena own words

"As [Grace] grew, I took to bribing her for her time and affection: one dollar in quarters if I could do her makeup like a 'motorcycle chick.' Three pieces of candy if I could kiss her on the lips for five seconds. Whatever she wanted to watch on TV if she would just 'relax on me.' Basically, anything a sexual predator might to do woo a small suburban girl I was trying. Maybe, I thought, she would be more willing to accept kisses if I wore the face mask my grandmother had for when she did her dialysis. (The answer was no.) What I really wanted, beyond affection, was to feel that she needed me, that she was helpless without her big sister leading her through the world.”

Lena was an odd kid with no friends in school and she wanted her little sister to be the best buddy she never had and she did literally anything to share those moments of sisterly closeness.
Unless you're going to suggest that as a kid she was turned on by "motor cycle chicks".

RDM_83 again wrote: »

How do you know this, you refute my point that I don't have evidence that the sister was a focus or additional factor in the act when at least I can point to the fact that 13 she was definitely a factor in certain actions.
Additionally the excerpt quoted implies that this was ongoing behavior over a number of years, do you maintain that over that period her sister was never aware of what was happening

I read the book, that's how I know. It's more than you have done.You can't point to any sexual impropriety on her part at 13. There was none.

Sand wrote: »

Yeah, that's something Lena Dunhams defenders seem unwilling to acknowledge: it is the grooming and manipulation by a significantly older sibling that is distinctly creepy. It isn't a situation of two similar aged kids both exploring, experimenting or playing: its a story of one older sibling exploiting a younger sibling. A younger sibling who simply couldnt give consent for what happened.

Grooming is a crime in the US. It doesn't require any actual sexual contact to take place for a conviction to be secured.

Maybe some might say what Dunham did is not a provable crime as such. Fair enough. It is very weird and worrying behaviour which she chose to publish about herself and people are reacting appropriately to it by considering it weird and worrying.

Again read the above paragraph directly from the book. Then maybe even go mad and read the book to gain some context before you go suggesting someone is a essentially a paedophile grroming small children.

This has been one disappointing thread.

RDM_83 again

FairytaleGirl wrote: »

For all the posters vilifying Lena RE the masturbating incident ... I wonder how many are parents who had sex while their kid slept in the cot close to the bed ... ?

Yeah thats a great analogy :cool: How many 5 to 11 year olds are sleeping in a cot close to the bed while their parents have sex

_Whimsical_

RDM_83 again wrote: »

People seem to be forgetting the point that lack of privacy was not an issue, she grew up among a millionaire family FFS, she was not sharing a bed by necessity but by choice and that its inarguable that she enjoyed her sister sharing her bed (whether there was a sexual component or not)

There was no sexual component at all. It's a little weird you'd even imagine there was.
Her sister hated to sleep alone, Lena was delighted to have her come in as she also hated to sleep alone, it was something she'd sought a child psychologist to help her with her fear of sleeping alone as a kid. She also was delighted to have her sister seek her out and wanting her care and her help and her sisterly closeness.

Carlos Orange

RDM_83 again wrote: »

Yeah thats a great analogy :cool: How many 5 to 11 year olds are sleeping in a cot close to the bed while their parents have sex

I think Lena slept with her mum until she was 12.

Tasden

_Whimsical_ wrote: »

There was no sexual component at all. It's a little weird you'd even imagine there was.
Her sister hated to sleep alone, Lena was delighted to have her come in as she also hated to sleep alone, it was something she'd sought a child psychologist to help her with her fear of sleeping alone as a kid. She also was delighted to have her sister seek her out and wanting her care and her help and her sisterly closeness.

You're fighting a losing battle tbh, people have made up their minds based on selected quotes taken out of context and misleading thread titles calling Lena a child abuser.

Whether or not she was right or wrong to do what she actually discusses in the book (and not what people are assuming or concluding from the small snippets they have read), people have made up their minds already and aren't going to listen to anybody reasoning from their actual reading of the book and a genuine understanding of the context.

Iranoutofideas

That family sound messed up.

Son Of A Vidic

Scannal wrote: »

It all seems a bit sick and why did she put it in a book?

Nothing like a bit of controversy to raise a books profile and generate some sales.