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Water Charges / Tax / Demonstrations / Irish Water / Meter Installations etc etc

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 70,172 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Seanachai wrote: »
    What do you mean by 'ability to terminate without reason after four years'.

    The first six months of a second or subsequent Part IV tenancy needs no reason given for termination by the landlord but notice is still required.


  • Registered Users Posts: 121 ✭✭Cavey


    Thank you for the replies.

    I also forgot to mention that I get rent allowance. It's practically a condition that I signup to IW in my scenario.

    Just that I expect to not need rent allowance come 1 or 2 years I will be well able to support myself. My main concern is entering into this contract now while I'm somewhat vulnerable. It will be much more difficult to dispute charges in the future if I agree to this now.

    So essentially if I do not agree, my landlord may give me notice. How much time do I get to find a new home? I'm aware landlords are making it apart of leases that tenants must sign up to IW so coupled with the lack of places already available. . I may be homeless in a few months time.

    Any advice?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 70,172 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Notice after 2 years is 56 days but I'm not sure that this would be a valid reason - however some leases do have boilerplate sections about ensuring all utilities remain connected and paid for etc.

    After 4 years it would be 112 days.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,844 ✭✭✭Ogham


    Cavey wrote: »
    Thank you for the replies.

    I also forgot to mention that I get rent allowance. It's practically a condition that I signup to IW in my scenario.

    Just that I expect to not need rent allowance come 1 or 2 years I will be well able to support myself. My main concern is entering into this contract now while I'm somewhat vulnerable. It will be much more difficult to dispute charges in the future if I agree to this now.

    So essentially if I do not agree, my landlord may give me notice. How much time do I get to find a new home? I'm aware landlords are making it apart of leases that tenants must sign up to IW so coupled with the lack of places already available. . I may be homeless in a few months time.

    Any advice?

    Just fill in theh water form and all will be fine.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,945 ✭✭✭Grandpa Hassan


    MYOB wrote: »
    Notice after 2 years is 56 days but I'm not sure that this would be a valid reason - however some leases do have boilerplate sections about ensuring all utilities remain connected and paid for etc.

    After 4 years it would be 112 days.

    That is the case with mine. Registration for the water charge is a specific condition. Failure to register would be a breach in the lease and grounds for termination. I still don't believe that LLs will not get somehow sucked into this, and I want it all as clean as possible


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 32,286 Mod ✭✭✭✭The_Conductor


    PeteK* wrote: »
    How much were we paying?

    From central funding- the equivalent of over 700 Euro per household, per annum.
    This fell- when the property taxes (LPT and NPPR) were introduced- back towards an average of 460 Euro per annum- with the county averages skewed as high as 1,600 versus a low of 180 Euro per annum for one of the Dublin councils.

    The headache in all of this- is this money was to provide for the provision of water, and emergency repairs. It was not to provide for additional sanitation and treatment plants, replacement of decayed pipework, or the new canal treatment plants. All-in-all- capital works of just under 20 billion are necessary to bring our water network to average international levels.

    Keep in mind- we have had rolling water blackouts for most of the past decade- alongside reductions in water in pressure- particularly in the East- because we have refused to spend money on our network.

    The elephant in the room- is the fact that it costs over 9 times as much in infrastructure and depreciation to supply water in low density rural areas- as it does in the higher density greater Dublin area- yet, once again, akin to the property tax- the greater Dublin area will be cross-subsidising provision of facilities by the back door for other areas- as it always has done. It would be nice to have this simple fact enumerated and recognised.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 32,286 Mod ✭✭✭✭The_Conductor


    Cavey wrote: »
    Today I was paying some rent to my landlord. They asked if I had registered for Irish Water. I said no and that I wasn't planning to. The landlord said they attempted to sign me up themselves (without my knowledge or consent) online but they were not able to. The landlord then strongly advised I rethink my stance on signing up or they would not renew my lease. I am a tenant in this apartment for over 2 years. Are they legally allowed to do this? They claim that if I don't sign up, they will receive my bill and have to pay for it. All I know is that right now would be a terrible time to get evicted. So if these are scare tactics, they are working well...

    Anyone that could shed some light on this, would appreciate it greatly thanks.

    I was told by Irish Water yesterday that they have associated rental properties with my personal account number and I would receive landlord packs for them before the end of November. If they are not returned completed- I will be held personally responsible for them (none are metered- they will all be the assessed charges- however, no children's allowances etc will apply).

    So......... I don't know what they're up to- they don't appear to be consistent- they're certainly threatening landlords with their tenant's bills, in the event that the tenant doesn't register or pay..........


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,544 ✭✭✭Seanachai


    MYOB wrote: »
    The first six months of a second or subsequent Part IV tenancy needs no reason given for termination by the landlord but notice is still required.

    Okay, thanks. My landlord has turned out to be pretty sympathetic about the charges and is hoping that they collapse. He actually used to work for the government and told all the tenants to play it by ear.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,351 ✭✭✭✭SteelyDanJalapeno


    As a tenant that has received nothing at all from IW, should I go to there site and sign up? or just keep waiting for a package?

    seems a bit ridiculous if I went to there site, what do the people who dont keep up with current affairs and have not received a package do? Are they expected to randomly find the Irish Water site and sign up or face fines?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,844 ✭✭✭Ogham


    As a tenant that has received nothing at all from IW, should I go to there site and sign up? or just keep waiting for a package?

    seems a bit ridiculous if I went to there site, what do the people who dont keep up with current affairs and have not received a package do? Are they expected to randomly find the Irish Water site and sign up or face fines?

    Each property that has been sent a form has a unique application number and PIN number. It is not just a matter of registering online if no form has been sent - you need the form to get the numbers to register online.

    There seem to be a large number of houses where no form has been sent. Looks like if you haven't had a form - they think your house doesn't exist - http://www.moneyguideireland.com/irish-water-and-non-existent-addresses.html


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  • Registered Users Posts: 194 ✭✭fisher8181


    I have a one bed apartment that I am renting out.
    My tenant will be moving out soon so I don't want the hassle of making sure he signs up for Irish water and then that the new tenant does so I was just going to register my name for the apartment and my wife's name in our house.

    I know that's not what your supposed to do but are there any pros and cons to doing it that way?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,844 ✭✭✭Ogham


    fisher8181 wrote: »
    I have a one bed apartment that I am renting out.
    My tenant will be moving out soon so I don't want the hassle of making sure he signs up for Irish water and then that the new tenant does so I was just going to register my name for the apartment and my wife's name in our house.

    I know that's not what your supposed to do but are there any pros and cons to doing it that way?

    Cons -
    You will pay for the tenant's water bill
    You will have to declare that the apt is your main residence (not true)
    Your wife will have to declare she is the only adult in the house (not true) and will pay less water charge because of that (if unmetered)


    Pros - ??


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,544 ✭✭✭Seanachai


    If a tenant or a landlord even registers for the water charges and it turns out that they collapse early next year would they get a refund on the money that they would have paid already?.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,945 ✭✭✭Grandpa Hassan


    Seanachai wrote: »
    If a tenant or a landlord even registers for the water charges and it turns out that they collapse early next year would they get a refund on the money that they would have paid already?.

    Unlikely. But equally unlikely is that water charges disappear. IW might be abolished, or at least get significantly restructured. But the charges won't be going anywhere.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,203 ✭✭✭moxin


    Ogham wrote: »
    Each property that has been sent a form has a unique application number and PIN number. It is not just a matter of registering online if no form has been sent - you need the form to get the numbers to register online.

    There seem to be a large number of houses where no form has been sent. Looks like if you haven't had a form - they think your house doesn't exist - http://www.moneyguideireland.com/irish-water-and-non-existent-addresses.html

    That's only half of it. They sent out forms to the wrong addresses using out of date info. In my case after phoning them as to where my pack is, it was sent to one of my previous 5 addresses(they don't know which one!)

    Due to the scale of the mishap, you have loads of people ringing jamming the lines looking for that application number and PIN number.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12,449 ✭✭✭✭pwurple


    Era, I've given up.

    I actaully think water charges are fair and should be implemented... in fact they should have never been taken away in that election buying stunt previously.

    However, my tenants haven't received a pack. I haven't received one for my own home. My husbands parents don't have one, my brothers didn't receive one. I've spent a few hours on hold, only to be told, call back in another few weeks if it doesn't arrive.

    The thing is, I don't think any of the properties I mention above are going to be on their databases. The tenants are above businesses whch pays rates already. My own house was built in the garden of a bigger house, and we share the main feed off the road, so I don't think that's going to be on the grid either. The others all also live above businesses, except for one, where their address is Their Name, townland, county... ie non-unique.


    It's going to be almost impossible to implement something like this, without a national set of postcodes or a database of addresses. That should have been done first. We are like a developing country in regards to maps and addressing. It's nuts, and affects so much of what we do. Getting a phone line into my house when we moved in was torture, let alone getting anything delivered. And it's not like I live in the sticks, this is city center.

    Gah, I dunno. I'll let Irish water settle down a bit, and try again next year maybe. It's a right mess at the moment.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,544 ✭✭✭Seanachai


    Unlikely. But equally unlikely is that water charges disappear. IW might be abolished, or at least get significantly restructured. But the charges won't be going anywhere.

    So you actually think that they'd get rid of IW thinking ( falsely ) that this is the main issue that people are pissed off about and then try to keep the charges?. I hope they do try that if only it means that they'll have gotten rid of themselves!. I think that some of these guys are either seriously misreading the public mood or they know what the crux of the issue is and are just ignoring it. Like that odious Alex White guy framing the issue as if the problem is we weren't given a spoonful of sugar with the medicine!. I know people who I never thought in a million years I would see using civil disobedience refusing to register or pay for the water charges. It's a really promising sign imo.

    The way in which IW have behaved is disgraceful but leaving aside the money wastage, bonuses etc I still think the same amount of people would have turned up to the recent march even without the controversy. This is about an intense rage towards a government that is bleeding people dry and the water charge is just the straw that broke the camels back. If IW top brass were paid €30 k and did an excellent job in rolling out the 'project' as Alex White calls it I still wouldn't register.


  • Registered Users Posts: 194 ✭✭fisher8181


    will irish water be able to liaise with revenue or the PRTB so check if an individual is renting out a house and liable to pay tax on the rent?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,381 ✭✭✭✭Paulw


    fisher8181 wrote: »
    will irish water be able to liaise with revenue or the PRTB so check if an individual is renting out a house and liable to pay tax on the rent?

    No, there is nothing in place for IW to communicate with the Revenue nor PRTB.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 386 ✭✭monkey8


    Paulw wrote: »
    No, there is nothing in place for IW to communicate with the Revenue nor PRTB.

    Nothing in place, but that doesn't mean that its not going to happen.
    Would not trust them to not share that info


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,512 ✭✭✭runawaybishop


    They won't need to liaise - the landlord will just pass on the tenants info.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,844 ✭✭✭Ogham


    Paulw wrote: »
    No, there is nothing in place for IW to communicate with the Revenue nor PRTB.

    What makes you say that? Both those organisations are mentioned in the Water Services act as bodies that IW can get info from
    Page 11 - here
    http://www.oireachtas.ie/documents/bills28/bills/2013/113/b113.pdf


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,544 ✭✭✭Seanachai


    Ogham wrote: »
    What makes you say that? Both those organisations are mentioned in the Water Services act as bodies that IW can get info from
    Page 11 - here
    http://www.oireachtas.ie/documents/bills28/bills/2013/113/b113.pdf

    So you're saying that they could just grab your PPS from revenue all along and the forms were just a nicer way of doing it?. Somehow I don't think they'll go down that road.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,844 ✭✭✭Ogham


    Seanachai wrote: »
    So you're saying that they could just grab your PPS from revenue all along and the forms were just a nicer way of doing it?. Somehow I don't think they'll go down that road.

    PPS numbers are a separate issue - covered by different legislation.
    This section is concerning finding out who owners or liable people are.


  • Registered Users Posts: 61 ✭✭zmccomish


    What if any sanctions can be imposed if one fails or refuses to pay the water charge?We know they can turn down the water pressure, but not cut off the supply.With the property tax the householder can be prosecuted or pay/pension docked. But what will happen if the owner will not pay for water?


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,518 ✭✭✭✭dudara


    Moved to the Accommodation & Property forum where there is a large thread on Water Charges

    dudara


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 78,537 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    They sue you in court. There may be an attachment order to your earnings or you might have the county sheriff seize your property. It may be difficult to get future credit or utility connections.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,945 ✭✭✭Grandpa Hassan


    Can utility companies register unpaid bills against your credit rating? Which would obviously make it hard, if not impossible, to get a mortgage or loan. Or can only finance companies do that?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,905 ✭✭✭✭Bob24


    Are you a owner occupier or a tenant?

    If you're renting they likely won't bother too much with you and go to your landlord who is legally responsible for paying the charges if no tenant is paying them.

    If you are the owner of the property, same as any other utility company in term of legal ways to collect your money - plus as you said they might reduce pressure.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 78,537 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    Can utility companies register unpaid bills against your credit rating?
    The credit rating agency will see the court judgement against the non-payer.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,945 ✭✭✭Grandpa Hassan


    Bob24 wrote: »
    Are you a owner occupier or a tenant?

    If you're renting they likely won't bother too much with you and go to your landlord who is legally responsible for paying the charges if no tenant is paying them.

    If you are the owner of the property, same as any other utility company in term of legal ways to collect your money - plus as you said they might reduce pressure.

    That's not how it is supposed to work. But I suspect that ultimately in realty you are right. So as a LL I will have a specific clause in the lease requiring tenants to register and provide evidence of registration to me. Failure to do so within a certain time will be a breach of the lease and result in eviction.

    So in my case, that is the sanction for a tenant not registering. If they are registered, but do not pay, then that will sit with them, not the LL.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 70,172 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Can utility companies register unpaid bills against your credit rating? Which would obviously make it hard, if not impossible, to get a mortgage or loan. Or can only finance companies do that?

    Both the judgement route and agencies like Experian who are used by mobile networks, etc for credit decisions are options for utility providers


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,771 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    zmccomish wrote: »
    What if any sanctions can be imposed if one fails or refuses to pay the water charge?We know they can turn down the water pressure, but not cut off the supply.With the property tax the householder can be prosecuted or pay/pension docked. But what will happen if the owner will not pay for water?
    It's not a tax, it's a charge. If it was a tax revenue could hunt you down and kill you. As its a charge by a private company there is not much they can do, other than try sell in the debt to a collection agency who will hound you but can't do much


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,905 ✭✭✭✭Bob24


    That's not how it is supposed to work. But I suspect that ultimately in realty you are right. So as a LL I will have a specific clause in the lease requiring tenants to register and provide evidence of registration to me. Failure to do so within a certain time will be a breach of the lease and result in eviction.

    So in my case, that is the sanction for a tenant not registering. If they are registered, but do not pay, then that will sit with them, not the LL.

    Yeah sure I meant they will come to the landlord if the tenant refuses to register. If the tenant do register but doesn't pay, I guess they will have to go through a regular debt collection process.

    But I can also think of cases where it might make sense to let IW remove a tenant customer and default back to the landlord. Let's see for example a property is rented to an exchange student for a year, who registers with IW and pays the bills. After a year the student closes their Irish bank account from which Irish Water was getting a direct debit and goes back to their home country; and for some reason forgets to tell Irish Water they are not a customer anymore (and doesn't give them any updated contact details). If no new tenant registers and the landlord doesn't willingly takeover the account, surely IW can't be expected to (unsuccessfully) keep chasing a person who is abroad and knowing they aren't really their customer anymore?

    In any case, you are definitely right to cover yourself adding a clause in your lease.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,544 ✭✭✭Seanachai


    What if it comes down to a scenario where enough people register but a large number of those people then don't pay even after it comes down to the debt collector letters after 3-4 months?. They're still rolling out damage control in the media and they're even using the cuddly Leo Varadkar to massage the brains of the more gullible by claiming it's okay to give your PPS as you give it to your dentist!. I think if people stay the course this could actually crumble the government, we'll just have to see what choice people make when the bills come.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    Landlords will not have to pay for properties where they can show that the property was occupied by tenants. This sounds like more scaremongering nonsense from the water meter thugs.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    Even worse landlords are falling for it with the whole "New IW Clause " been put into leases


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,945 ✭✭✭Grandpa Hassan


    foggy_lad wrote: »
    Landlords will not have to pay for properties where they can show that the property was occupied by tenants. This sounds like more scaremongering nonsense from the water meter thugs.

    But how does a LL do that? If the tenant does not register, the LL will be liable unless he / she provides proof. What will be accepted as proof (presumably not a tenancy agreement, as that might have ended)? I do not want to be spending time going back and forth to IW trying to prove it. Hence I intend to make failure to register a breach of the lease for the tenant.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,905 ✭✭✭✭Bob24


    foggy_lad wrote: »
    Landlords will not have to pay for properties where they can show that the property was occupied by tenants. This sounds like more scaremongering nonsense from the water meter thugs.

    http://www.thejournal.ie/irish-water-landlord-tenant-1726010-Oct2014

    It's not all 100% clear, but what I get from the article is that the landlord is liable if no tenant is registered for a property, and that going forward Irish Water will have a process for landlords to basically force-regiser their tenants and transfer the liability to them.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,945 ✭✭✭Grandpa Hassan


    So....this is how I read the situation.

    If the tenant does not return the pack, then the LL is liable. At some stage in the future, IW will implement a system whereby the LL can register the tenant or else prove that they are not the resident.

    If the tenant registers but does not pay, then the tenant will be chased (ultimately with a judgement against them) with no comeback to the LL.

    Seems that IW will be getting a much higher compliance rate (or registration rate at least) by getting LLs to do their job for them....either by the LL incorporating registration requirements into the lease, or ultimately through the LL registering the tenant directly in order to eliminate the LL liability.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,905 ✭✭✭✭Bob24



    Seems that IW will be getting a much higher compliance rate (or registration rate at least) by getting LLs to do their job for them....either by the LL incorporating registration requirements into the lease, or ultimately through the LL registering the tenant directly in order to eliminate the LL liability.

    Yes, I think getting landlords to force their tenants to register was exactly the governments' plan when they passed the legislation to make landlords liable by default.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,071 ✭✭✭✭Del2005


    Bob24 wrote: »
    Yeah sure I meant they will come to the landlord if the tenant refuses to register. If the tenant do register but doesn't pay, I guess they will have to go through a regular debt collection process.

    But I can also think of cases where it might make sense to let IW remove a tenant customer and default back to the landlord. Let's see for example a property is rented to an exchange student for a year, who registers with IW and pays the bills. After a year the student closes their Irish bank account from which Irish Water was getting a direct debit and goes back to their home country; and for some reason forgets to tell Irish Water they are not a customer anymore (and doesn't give them any updated contact details). If no new tenant registers and the landlord doesn't willingly takeover the account, surely IW can't be expected to (unsuccessfully) keep chasing a person who is abroad and knowing they aren't really their customer anymore?

    In any case, you are definitely right to cover yourself adding a clause in your lease.

    Why is IW different to the other utilities? A LL isn't liable if a tenant runs out on the electricity or gas bill, the company has to chase the person who used the utility, so why not for water?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    Bob24 wrote: »
    Yes, I think getting landlords to force their tenants to register was exactly the governments' plan when they passed the legislation to make landlords liable by default.
    Can you please quote the piece of legislation which states that landlords are liable for water charges which are not paid by their tenants?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,905 ✭✭✭✭Bob24


    Del2005 wrote: »
    Why is IW different to the other utilities? A LL isn't liable if a tenant runs out on the electricity or gas bill, the company has to chase the person who used the utility, so why not for water?

    The big difference is that IW are not allowed to suspend the service if no one is paying. If a tenant runs out and stops paying their phone bill, Eircom will eventually disconnect the line. Irish Water can't do that and could end up in a limbo providing free water service forever if no one else registers as a customer.

    And of course I never said the LL should be liable for past debt of a tenant who ran away. Just that after some time of charges not being paid and if there is absolutely zero engagement from the person who is listed as a tenant, IW should be allowed to ask the landlord for confirmation that the person is still the occupier. And if it turns out that no occupier can be identified the landlord should be given a choice to either have the water service disconnected or become liable for future charges.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,905 ✭✭✭✭Bob24


    seamus wrote: »
    Can you please quote the piece of legislation which states that landlords are liable for water charges which are not paid by their tenants?

    To clarify, the landlord is only liable if no tenant is registered as by default they are deemed to be the occupier (which would be the case if their tenant refuses to register). If a tenant is registered with IW but doesn't pay, of course it is their own responsibility and not the landlord's.

    Here is the legislation: http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/pdf/2013/en.act.2013.0050.pdf

    Section 21 (5) states that "it shall be presumed, unless the contrary is proved, that the owner of a premises is also the occupier of that premises".

    Effectively, in order to avoid paying full charges for a property the only 2 options for a landlord are to declare the premises as unoccupied (in which case they will still be liable but have a reduced assessed charge) or to prove that someone else is occupying the property. It is not clear how to prove this, but I can't really see how it could be done without providing details of the tenancy to Irish Water (i.e. giving them legal means to force-register the tenant as a customer - as the legislation also clearly states that the occupier is liable to pay the charges to Irish Water).


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,945 ✭✭✭Grandpa Hassan


    Bob24 wrote: »
    To clarify, the landlord is only liable if no tenant is registered as by default they are deemed to be the occupier (which would be the case if their tenant refuses to register). If a tenant is registered with IW but doesn't pay, of course it is their own responsibility and not the landlord's.

    Here is the legislation: http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/pdf/2013/en.act.2013.0050.pdf

    Section 21 (5) states that "it shall be presumed, unless the contrary is proved, that the owner of a premises is also the occupier of that premises".

    Effectively, in order to avoid paying full charges for a property the only 2 options for a landlord are to declare the premises as unoccupied (in which case they will still be liable but have a reduced assessed charge) or to prove that someone else is occupying the property. It is not clear how to prove this, but I can't really see how it could be done without providing details of the tenancy to Irish Water (i.e. giving them legal means to force-register the tenant as a customer - as the legislation also clearly states that the occupier is liable to pay the charges to Irish Water).

    Until such time as that process is formalised, I think it is pretty clear that I will be liable if my tenant does not register.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,905 ✭✭✭✭Bob24


    Until such time as that process is formalised, I think it is pretty clear that I will be liable if my tenant does not register.

    I'm just guessing, but I would say yes and no. If you were to engage with Irish Water telling them the premises are occupied by someone else and offering to provide evidence, even if they don't have a formal process in place to deal with it I think it would be difficult for them to ignore your contacts and just start charging you. Whether they are able/ready to legally challenge your tenant to pay charges with whatever evidence you provided becomes their problem - but they can't really claim you are the occupier anymore (if things were to escalate, I doubt any judge would side with them).


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    Bob24 wrote: »
    It is not clear how to prove this, but I can't really see how it could be done without providing details of the tenancy to Irish Water
    Actually pretty straightforward. You can show rent receipts, tax returns, notices from the PRTB, etc. This is civil law, not criminal law, so even showing that you live in another property could be ample "proof" that you are renting this one.

    What's written in that legislation is actually already simple contract stuff; the occupier is presumed to be the user of the water unless they declare otherwise. Once they declare otherwise, they're pretty much in the clear.

    The tenant's actual details are a separate matter altogether. If IW believe that a landlord is lying about the occupancy of their property, they will need to bring them to court, at which point the landlord can provide the full details to the court to prove occupancy. And then IW lose the case and incur the costs.

    In order to get access to the tenants' details, IW will need a court order.

    What will probably happen is an agreement between the PRTB and IW such that tenants can give permission to the PRTB to pass on their details to Irish Water. And landlords will start including that as a condition in leases because they don't want to have to deal with the headache.

    I'm surprised the legislation didn't include an obligation on the part of landlords to provide tenants' details to Irish Water. Would have saved all this bother without having to breach data protecting legislation or get the courts involved.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,905 ✭✭✭✭Bob24


    seamus wrote: »
    Actually pretty straightforward. You can show rent receipts, tax returns, notices from the PRTB, etc. This is civil law, not criminal law, so even showing that you live in another property could be ample "proof" that you are renting this one.

    I am not sure it is that straight forward.

    Each property in the country is either unoccupied (the landlord is always liable) or has an occupier (the occupier - owner occupier or tenant - is liable). The landlord can indeed easily prove the property is not their main residence, but this would only put them in the unoccupied category, i.e. get them a cheap assessed charge as long as no meter is installed.

    However if they want to be completely off the hook they need to prove that there is an occupier which is not themselves. I think it is very difficult to do without giving that person's name.

    The point on which we probably agree is that no one (tenant - landlord - or Irish Water) will want to go to court over this. So in practice their will probably be an number of formal and informal agreements between the different stakeholders which will lead to IW getting the details of the tenant.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    Bob24 wrote: »
    However if they want to be completely off the hook they need to prove that there is an occupier which is not themselves. I think it is very difficult to do without giving that person's name.
    We'll probably have to agree to disagree here, but registering as the occupier in one property while declaring that your other property is occupied by a renter, seems to me to be pretty straightforward "proof". Like I say, this is a civil matter, so "proof" doesn't have to be beyond any doubt, it just has to be probable.

    But yes, no way these will end up in court. Nobody wants that expense and hassle.


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