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Israel - Palestine Conflict. **Mod note in OP - updated 1st August**

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    #5162
    Manic Moran
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 16,256 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    Hard luck, but I quite specifically used the word "effectively" so it was abundantly clear I was not surprised.

    You seemed surprised that I would be willing to categorize the Israeli action as an act of war.


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    #5163
    Manic Moran
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 16,256 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran


    wes wrote: »
    The partition plan was never binding, and Zionist force immediately started expelling Palestinians and grabbing land outside the planned partition area.

    A convenient excuse for the Arabs who, as some 70 years of history has shown, have never really cared what happens to the Palestinians as long as they can use them as a talking point against Israel. The Arabs didn't want Israel to exist in any way, shape or form, regardless of if the Zionists were beating up on the Palestinians, and were happy to see Israel defeated by force of arms. After their military analysis showed that the Palestinians couldn't do it on their own, -then- they piled in at the first opportunity which wouldn't be an invasion of British land.
    You will find that both side were doing that at the time.....

    Right, so we are agreed that the situation was not exactly peace and roses, both sides were already shooting at each other (Although Israel wasn't blockading any Egyptian ports, so the balance to that time was "Egypt was doing more"). This is somewhat distant from "Evil Israelis invaded peace-loving Egyptians without cause"
    Wait, so a blockade is a reason for war now? Interesting considering the whole siege of Gaza......

    I believe Israel has considered it to be in a state of hostilities with Gaza for nearly the last decade. I'm not sure I see the problem.
    Yeah, and yet we see very clearly that Israel, when they do it, consider it to be not the case, as do there allies.

    Have they actually denied that blockading is an act conducted in time of armed conflict? As far as I know, no peace agreement had been solidified since 2006 and the start of hostilities.
    BTW, at this point in history, the 2 sides were attacking each other in a regular basis, and various acts and statements made against one another.

    See above statement about perception of war-mongering Israelis unprovokingly attacking peace-loving Arabs and earlier post about things not being black and white.


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    #5164
    deirdremf
    Registered Users Posts: 1,880 ✭✭✭deirdremf


    Manic Moran wrote: »
    A convenient excuse for the Arabs who, as some 70 years of history has shown, have never really cared what happens to the Palestinians as long as they can use them as a talking point against Israel. The Arabs didn't want Israel to exist in any way, shape or form, regardless of if the Zionists were beating up on the Palestinians, and were happy to see Israel defeated by force of arms. After their military analysis showed that the Palestinians couldn't do it on their own, -then- they piled in at the first opportunity which wouldn't be an invasion of British land.
    I don't understand this Hasbara obsession with calling Palestine British land.

    The British never claimed Palestine was "british land".
    It was a "land under british administration".
    The Brits never legally owned the land. They administered it, having conquered it from the Turks in WWI.
    That was the extent of it.


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    #5165
    WakeUp
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,823 ✭✭✭WakeUp


    Medical personnel claim Israel tested new weapons during attacks on Gaza:

    "Doctors and an ambulance officer believe Israel tested new weapons during its July 8th – August 26th assault on the Gaza Strip.
    Ambulance officer Ibrahim Abu Kas of the Palestinian Red Crescent Society has worked through the last three wars between Israel and Hamas. “In this war, I saw things I never could have imagined,” he says. “The five children from the al-Jaal family in Zeitoun were the strangest thing I ever saw in my life.”
    http://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/middle-east/medical-personnel-claim-israel-tested-new-weapons-during-attacks-on-gaza-1.1919645

    if true I wonder what they are and where did they come from.

    Israel Bolstering Legal team ahead of UN Gaza probe:

    AP — A jittery Israeli military is gearing up for what could become its next big battle: dealing with UN investigations that could result in war-crime allegations.

    The army has beefed up its legal staff, is conducting internal investigations of its wartime actions and has prepared a detailed PR campaign of satellite photos and video clips — hoping to persuade the world that its war against Hamas was justified.
    http://www.timesofisrael.com/israel-bolstering-legal-team-ahead-of-un-gaza-probe/

    we shall see.


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    #5166
    wes
    Registered Users Posts: 11,747 ✭✭✭✭wes


    Manic Moran wrote: »
    A convenient excuse for the Arabs who, as some 70 years of history has shown, have never really cared what happens to the Palestinians as long as they can use them as a talking point against Israel. The Arabs didn't want Israel to exist in any way, shape or form, regardless of if the Zionists were beating up on the Palestinians, and were happy to see Israel defeated by force of arms. After their military analysis showed that the Palestinians couldn't do it on their own, -then- they piled in at the first opportunity which wouldn't be an invasion of British land.

    Why should the Arabs states accept a Europeam colonial state? The entire notion that a bunch Europeans using an extremist take on the Bible had a right to go to Palestine and set up there own state was never going to be welcomed, and why should it have been? They planned to get rid of the Palestinians from the get go. Yes, other Arabs states treatment of Palestinians is appaling, but that doesn't change the facts.Israel started expelling Palestinians which resulted in refugees and the started grabbing land outside the borders of the what was proposed for a Jewish state.

    BTW, Palestine was a mandate and never British land and by the time the Arab states intervened the mandate was over.
    Manic Moran wrote: »
    Right, so we are agreed that the situation was not exactly peace and roses, both sides were already shooting at each other (Although Israel wasn't blockading any Egyptian ports, so the balance to that time was "Egypt was doing more"). This is somewhat distant from "Evil Israelis invaded peace-loving Egyptians without cause"

    Its also not a case of peace loving Israel defending itself either. Being a constant aggressor themselves.
    Manic Moran wrote: »
    I believe Israel has considered it to be in a state of hostilities with Gaza for nearly the last decade. I'm not sure I see the problem.

    Well your own argument above would apply with Gaza surely right? Surely you see what I am getting at?
    Manic Moran wrote: »
    Have they actually denied that blockading is an act conducted in time of armed conflict? As far as I know, no peace agreement had been solidified since 2006 and the start of hostilities.

    Gaza is covered under Oslo as well, BTW, especially now with a unity government. So yes there is an agreement which to fair has been dead for years.
    Manic Moran wrote: »
    See above statement about perception of war-mongering Israelis unprovokingly attacking peace-loving Arabs and earlier post about things not being black and white.
    [/quote]

    I think Europeans showing up and stealing land from the natives is very black and white. Sure it gets greyer as the conflict has gone on, but the start of it very black and white.


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    #5167
    RustyNut
    Registered Users Posts: 3,430 ✭✭✭RustyNut


    wes wrote: »
    I think Europeans showing up and stealing land from the natives is very black and white. Sure it gets greyer as the conflict has gone on, but the start of it very black and white.

    They didn't steal it, god gave it to them,
    Apparently.


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    #5168
    Son Of A Vidic
    Registered Users Posts: 32,370 ✭✭✭✭Son Of A Vidic


    WakeUp wrote: »
    The army has beefed up its legal staff, is conducting internal investigations of its wartime actions and has prepared a detailed PR campaign of satellite photos and video clips — hoping to persuade the world that its war against Hamas the civilians was justified.

    Fixed the typo there.


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    #5169
    Antar Bolaeisk
    Registered Users Posts: 3,091 ✭✭✭Antar Bolaeisk


    RustyNut wrote: »
    They didn't steal it, god gave it to them,
    Apparently.

    It is the promised land after all, promised by Britain to the Zionists, promised by Britain to the Arabs and promised by Britain to itself.


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    #5170
    Larry Wildman
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,460 ✭✭✭Larry Wildman


    Say the north and south sides of Dublin were separate jurisdictions a la Gaza and Israel. Say that families having breakfast down around Nassau Street were having bombs lobbed over on to them pretty regularly. Say you were a Southsider - What would you want your government to do? I'd want mine to go in and obliterate the terrorists. The propaganda around Gaza and Palestine is bonkers (especially here bizarrely). I'm with the Israelis 100%. The terrorists are hidden and shielded by civilians who are then mourned by the liberal media when they're obliterated as collateral damage. The Palestinians would be better served shopping the terrorists instead of shielding them. And to be blunt, if I was an Israeli with enemies all around me (who have attacked a number of times), I prefer to see 10,000 Palestinian civilians blown up by my military if it saved the life of one of my fellow Israelis. That's just life.


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    #5171
    wes
    Registered Users Posts: 11,747 ✭✭✭✭wes


    Larry Wildman wrote: »
    Say the north and south sides of Dublin were separate jurisdictions a la Gaza and Israel. Say that families having breakfast down around Nassau Street were having bombs lobbed over on to them pretty regularly. Say you were a Southsider - What would you want your government to do? I'd want mine to go in and obliterate the terrorists.

    Your not the first poster to use an analogy like this, and it is amazing that no matter how many times, someone post something like this, that you don't incorporate the fact that Gaza is under siege, and that Israel is stealing land in the West Bank on a regular basis, or that the most recent rocket fire from Hamas did not happen until after Israel launched there own air strikes. You deliberately leave all of that out of your analogy, and it is amazing that basically the same argument has been made so many times, despite being so clearly not being an apt analogy at all.
    Larry Wildman wrote: »
    The propaganda around Gaza and Palestine is bonkers (especially here bizarrely). I'm with the Israelis 100%. The terrorists are hidden and shielded by civilians who are then mourned by the liberal media when they're obliterated as collateral damage. The Palestinians would be better served shopping the terrorists instead of shielding them. And to be blunt, if I was an Israeli with enemies all around me (who have attacked a number of times), I prefer to see 10,000 Palestinian civilians blown up by my military if it saved the life of one of my fellow Israelis. That's just life.

    So your now disgustingly accusing civilians as purposefully acting as Human Shields. Your post is one of the most disgusting posts on here, and the fact that your would rather see 10,000 dead Palestinians civilians shows that you are not better than the terrorist you condemn. Disgusting post and utterly disturbing that not only do you openly support the murder of civilians, you even claim without proof, that they purposefully act as Human Shields.


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    #5172
    chicken foot
    Registered Users Posts: 165 ✭✭chicken foot


    Even his use of north side / south side analogy shows his moral standing, the view that the Israelis are superior.I wouldn't waste a response on him!


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    #5173
    Larry Wildman
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,460 ✭✭✭Larry Wildman


    chicken foot wrote: »
    Even his use of north side / south side analogy shows his moral standing, the view that the Israelis are superior.I wouldn't waste a response on him!

    I support the Israelis 100%.

    In a sea of villainy (i.e. the Middle East), they're the only beacon of civility.

    And they're entitled to defend themselves. Let them obliterate the Palestinians as far as I'm concerned. And that's not trolling.


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    #5174
    wes
    Registered Users Posts: 11,747 ✭✭✭✭wes


    Larry Wildman wrote: »
    Let them obliterate the Palestinians as far as I'm concerned. And that's not trolling.

    So you are openly supporting genocide now. Well, it didn't take you long to destroy your own credibility.


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    #5175
    Larry Wildman
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,460 ✭✭✭Larry Wildman


    wes wrote: »
    So you are openly supporting genocide now. Well, it didn't take you long to destroy your own credibility.

    You'd probably call this trolling. Given the chance, I would nuke the entire Arab/Muslim world. After 9/11, I advocated the destruction of Kandahar with a thermonuclear device. There's a storm coming - These ISIS clowns are just the start. We (as in the Western world) should strike first and destroy Islam before it gets the chance to do the same to us.


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    #5176
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 28,997 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    Larry Wildman wrote: »
    Say the north and south sides of Dublin were separate jurisdictions a la Gaza and Israel. Say that families having breakfast down around Nassau Street were having bombs lobbed over on to them pretty regularly. Say you were a Southsider - What would you want your government to do? I'd want mine to go in and obliterate the terrorists. The propaganda around Gaza and Palestine is bonkers (especially here bizarrely). I'm with the Israelis 100%. The terrorists are hidden and shielded by civilians who are then mourned by the liberal media when they're obliterated as collateral damage. The Palestinians would be better served shopping the terrorists instead of shielding them. And to be blunt, if I was an Israeli with enemies all around me (who have attacked a number of times), I prefer to see 10,000 Palestinian civilians blown up by my military if it saved the life of one of my fellow Israelis. That's just life.
    yeah. whatever. murdering civilians is just life. i'd say yourself and isis would get on well. the parasitic state of zion are the real terrorists. slaughtering raping civilians, bombing UN facilities. telling lies which are easily debunked, need i go on. frankly, the state of zion is no better then isis or any of these extremist nutters. hamas so called rockets verses a military which wipes out anything it comes into contact with. and the palestinians are terrorists yet the poor little israelies god love them are innocents being attacked by evil terrorists. it would make a good comedy routeen only its actually real.

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #5177
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 28,997 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    Larry Wildman wrote: »
    I support the Israelis 100%.

    do you support isis also? they deliberately kill anyone in site just like poor israel.
    Larry Wildman wrote: »
    In a sea of villainy (i.e. the Middle East), they're the only beacon of civility.

    yeah. they really are that. oh wait. they aren't. but as "dayz not mudlimz init" they are perfect and can do what they like
    Larry Wildman wrote: »
    And they're entitled to defend themselves.

    then the palestinians are also entitled to defend themselves. hamas are no angels yes. but israel are not the poor little innocent country they try make out.
    Larry Wildman wrote: »
    Let them obliterate the Palestinians as far as I'm concerned. And that's not trolling.

    no, its extremism. and supporting and condoning terrorism. probably racism and bigotry also and the fact the palestinians are muslim

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #5178
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 28,997 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    Larry Wildman wrote: »
    You'd probably call this trolling. Given the chance, I would nuke the entire Arab/Muslim world. After 9/11, I advocated the destruction of Kandahar with a thermonuclear device. There's a storm coming - These ISIS clowns are just the start. We (as in the Western world) should strike first and destroy Islam before it gets the chance to do the same to us.
    yeah. whatever. the all so perfect and righteous west. complete nonsense. muslims are here to stay. they aren't going anywhere get over it. there will be no nukes droped on the muslim world. there is no storm coming. hysterical drivel.

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #5179
    SeaBreezes
    Registered Users Posts: 1,524 ✭✭✭SeaBreezes


    Larry Wildman wrote: »
    I support the Israelis 100%.

    In a sea of villainy (i.e. the Middle East), they're the only beacon of civility.

    And they're entitled to defend themselves. Let them obliterate the Palestinians as far as I'm concerned. And that's not trolling.

    Ha ha ha ha :-) lets see how that looks from the other side (there you are, palestinian happily farming your land, living your life and here come these newcomer Israelis who want your farm, bulldoze your house, and take pot shots at your kids on their way to school... )
    Larry Wildman wrote: »
    I support the Palestinians 100%.

    In a sea of villainy (i.e. the Middle East), they're the only beacon of civility.

    And they're entitled to defend themselves. Let them obliterate the Israelis as far as I'm concerned. And that's not trolling.

    Doesnt sound quite so nice from the other side, does it? Dont say such horrible things..


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    #5180
    wes
    Registered Users Posts: 11,747 ✭✭✭✭wes


    Larry Wildman wrote: »
    You'd probably call this trolling. Given the chance, I would nuke the entire Arab/Muslim world.

    Honestly it next to impossible to tell extremism from parody at times, hence why trolling works so well. I have no way of knowing if your being serious or not. Will leave that one to others.

    Now assuming your being truthful, again with the genocide.
    Larry Wildman wrote: »
    After 9/11, I advocated the destruction of Kandahar with a thermonuclear device.

    So your no better than Osama, and arguable worse, what with the call for genocide and all.
    Larry Wildman wrote: »
    There's a storm coming - These ISIS clowns are just the start. We (as in the Western world) should strike first and destroy Islam before it gets the chance to do the same to us.

    So back to genocide. How are you any better than an ISIS supporter exactly? You do realize they probably say the same crap about the West to justify there own extremism.

    Anyway as I said 0 credibility at this point...


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    #5181
    Micky Dolenz
    Registered Users Posts: 44,080 ✭✭✭✭Micky Dolenz


    Larry Wildman wrote: »
    You'd probably call this trolling. Given the chance, I would nuke the entire Arab/Muslim world. After 9/11, I advocated the destruction of Kandahar with a thermonuclear device. There's a storm coming - These ISIS clowns are just the start. We (as in the Western world) should strike first and destroy Islam before it gets the chance to do the same to us.


    Mod

    Banned

    Words nearly fail me. Hate speech is illegal in Ireland and not welcomed on boards.

    Keep that crap to yourself or start a blog.


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    #5182
    shedweller
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,029 ✭✭✭shedweller


    WakeUp wrote: »
    Medical personnel claim Israel tested new weapons during attacks on Gaza:

    "Doctors and an ambulance officer believe Israel tested new weapons during its July 8th – August 26th assault on the Gaza Strip.
    Ambulance officer Ibrahim Abu Kas of the Palestinian Red Crescent Society has worked through the last three wars between Israel and Hamas. “In this war, I saw things I never could have imagined,” he says. “The five children from the al-Jaal family in Zeitoun were the strangest thing I ever saw in my life.”
    http://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/middle-east/medical-personnel-claim-israel-tested-new-weapons-during-attacks-on-gaza-1.1919645

    if true I wonder what they are and where did they come from.

    Israel Bolstering Legal team ahead of UN Gaza probe:

    AP — A jittery Israeli military is gearing up for what could become its next big battle: dealing with UN investigations that could result in war-crime allegations.

    The army has beefed up its legal staff, is conducting internal investigations of its wartime actions and has prepared a detailed PR campaign of satellite photos and video clips — hoping to persuade the world that its war against Hamas was justified.
    http://www.timesofisrael.com/israel-bolstering-legal-team-ahead-of-un-gaza-probe/

    we shall see.
    Not much talk about this little nugget eh?
    Theres that elephant in the room we're avoiding again.
    I do recall mentioning them using DIME bombs a few days ago. Sick abominations. And to think they smoothie us up so we wont condemn them. Bastardo maximo!


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    #5183
    Zebra3
    Registered Users Posts: 13,859 ✭✭✭✭Zebra3


    http://www.aljazeera.com/programmes/rebelarchitecture/2014/06/architecture-violence-2014629113556647744.html

    Great documentary on the occupation. Well worth a watch if you've half an hour spare.


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    #5184
    Tuisceanch
    Registered Users Posts: 735 ✭✭✭Tuisceanch


    New Palestine cinema comes to Malaysia, Canada and US

    http://electronicintifada.net/blogs/maureen-clare-murphy/new-palestine-cinema-comes-malaysia-canada-and-us

    "The third Kuala Lumpur Palestine Film Festival launched this weekend, featuring Hany Abu-Assad’s Oscar-nominated thriller Omar (2013), the Palestine-set drama Inch’Allah (2013), Mahdi Fleifel’s acclaimed documentary A World Not Ours (2012) and Yasmine Perni’s documentary The Stones Cry Out (2013), which highlights the voices of Palestinian Christians."

    "Through stop-motion animation, drawings and interviews, directors Amer Shomali and Paul Cowan recreate an astonishing true story from the First Palestinian Intifada: the Israeli army’s pursuit of eighteen cows, whose independent milk production on a Palestinian collective farm was declared “a threat to the national security of the state of Israel.”


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    #5185
    Tuisceanch
    Registered Users Posts: 735 ✭✭✭Tuisceanch





    "Terrorist?"

    [Intro:]
    So, We must ask ourselves, What is the dictionary definition of "Terrorism"?
    The systematic use of terror especially as a means of coercion
    But what is terror?

    According to the dictionary I hold in my hand, Terror, is violent or destructive acts
    Such as bombing committed by groups in order to intimidate a population,
    Or government into granting their demands

    So what's a terrorist?

    [Hook:]
    They're calling me a terrorist
    Like they don't know who the terror is
    When they put it on me, I tell them this
    I'm all about peace and love
    They calling me a terrorist
    Like they don't know who the terror is
    Insulting my intelligence
    Oh how these people judge...


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    #5186
    TommyKnocker
    Registered Users Posts: 3,829 ✭✭✭TommyKnocker


    Israeli video justifying the bombing of Al Wafa hospital in the last round of attacks on Palestine/Gaza was apparently a fake.....

    .....surely the zionists would never do such a thing? :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:


    http://truth-out.org/news/item/25999-israels-video-justifying-destruction-of-a-hospital-was-from-2009


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    #5187
    hatrickpatrick
    Registered Users Posts: 17,797 ✭✭✭✭hatrickpatrick


    Micky Dolenz wrote: »
    Mod

    Banned

    Words nearly fail me. Hate speech is illegal in Ireland and not welcomed on boards.

    Keep that crap to yourself or start a blog.

    Not backseat modding, but I often feel it's better not to ban such people - letting eejits make eejits of themselves is sometimes the first step to having them recognize their eejitism.


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    #5188
    TommyKnocker
    Registered Users Posts: 3,829 ✭✭✭TommyKnocker


    Interesting reading


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    #5189
    Larry Wildman
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,460 ✭✭✭Larry Wildman


    hatrickpatrick wrote: »
    Not backseat modding, but I often feel it's better not to ban such people - letting eejits make eejits of themselves is sometimes the first step to having them recognize their eejitism.

    The 'eejitism' is the swallowing of the media's pro-Palestine agenda and the rampant anti-Israeli sentiment on these pages.


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    #5190
    wes
    Registered Users Posts: 11,747 ✭✭✭✭wes


    Larry Wildman wrote: »
    The 'eejitism' is the swallowing of the media's pro-Palestine agenda

    You watching the same media I am? Israeli spokespeople are well represented on the media, and they imho they tend not to be questioned that well.
    Larry Wildman wrote: »
    and the rampant anti-Israeli sentiment on these pages.

    More like a anti murdering civilians sentiment....


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    #5191
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Larry Wildman wrote: »
    The 'eejitism' is the swallowing of the media's pro-Palestine agenda and the rampant anti-Israeli sentiment on these pages.


    It depends what you refer to as a "pro Palestine agenda". For instance, it's a fact that Israel has been colonising outside its own borders since 1967, and running an apartheid state in those areas. Now if you support that, or aren't sufficiently pushed about it to condemn Israel for whatever reason, then yes, you'll see reporting that as part of a "pro-Palestine agenda". However, it's the truth and because it's the truth, it's actual reality you have a problem with, not the media.


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