Irish Rail strike days

Kamik · 22-08-2014 8:49pm

end of the road wrote: »

why is that, tell us your story

Long story concerning me with a buggy occupying Wheelchair space in dining carriage and asked to leave to another carriage. ended up standing in entrance from Athlone to Dublin.

devnull · 22-08-2014 8:54pm

may06 wrote: »

No it wasn't painted that way, you just understood it to be that way. Re-read the post in question.

The original poster said:
"staff must make there way to work early in the morning before public transport starts and then home at night after it has finished.

The key part in bold. If he said OR instead of AND I'd agree with you.

Definition of and: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/and?s=t
Definition of then: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/then?s=t

flyingsnail · 22-08-2014 8:55pm

The problem with attacking the free travel scheme is that it would be seen by many as an attack on the vulnerable in society. I don’t have a problem with the principal of the free travel scheme, giving it to over 65s and those that genuinely need it but I think the real problem with it is in the second part, those that genuinely need it, but it seems to be given to just about anybody for any reason and you also have the fraud element.

These are the subvention levels from the IE annual reports, so it oblivious that there have been cuts and cost savings to match but what does the actual passenger get, higher fares, less services, shorter trains, less frontline staff, one line closed and two others under a very real threat.

(000)
2014 = ???
2013 =127,029
2012 = 135,751
2011 = 148,683
2010 = 155,137
2009 = 170,624
2008 = 181,152

Are we going to be in the same position again next year, looking at a rail strike when there are more cuts? And what’s going to be left of the rail system when it’s all done and dusted?

devnull · 22-08-2014 8:59pm

Subvention levels decreased yes, but no transport business should expect to carry 10-15% less passengers and still get paid the same amount. In real times, that would be a rise in subvention.

The facts are that it is true that some subvention was cut to cut costs when the country was crippled, but also some subvention was cut simply because the number of passengers was decreasing.

cdebru · 22-08-2014 9:01pm

mickydoomsux wrote: »

This is the one point i disagree with.

The unions have brought the insanity that is the Free Travel Scheme to attention in letters sent to the management in the company and it was ignored a few times and then they were basically told that the government won't tolerate any change to the scheme so it isn't any kind of bargaining chip for either employees or the company when they go to the Dept of Transport.

Sorry letters to management? if the unions want to put it on the agenda then put it out there when Dermot O'Leary is on morning Ireland or news talk etc, no they keep schtum and let the management and government set the agenda, labour court recs, unavoidable, independent assessments, etc etc,

Why because one the unions are afraid that they will come off as scrooge trying to rob the pensioners and second there is a niave belief amongst some that if you make public transport funding unattractive that the private sector will just say thanks but no thanks and CIE can avoid privatization, of course the tendering model that the NTA is following means that the FTS is not an issue for the private sector it will be the NTAs problem to balance the books.

The unions don't have to argue for the scrapping of free travel just for the proper funding of the scheme, they are failing their members by not highlighting how poorly the scheme is funded or how differently it is funded for the private sector where private companies are getting 30% of each ticket when a free travel pass is used.

devnull · 22-08-2014 9:03pm

cdebru wrote: »

The balance sheet screams out to me that

1 costs have been cut from €441m to €312m since 2008
That fare paying passengers have been hit by successive increases.
That the subvention has been cut year after year.
And that the money for free travel has stayed the same.

So you agree that
- Costs have been cut in areas of the business
- Passengers have had to pay higher fares

So therefore it's only right that with costs being brought down and passengers being paid more, the staff should do their bit and take a hit on their wages?

During that time, the average cost per employee has stayed around the same, despite the fact there have been large cost savings and large increases to passengers. All it screams out is that everyone else has to take the brunt of it except for the staff.

cdebru · 22-08-2014 9:05pm

devnull wrote: »

Subvention levels decreased yes, but no transport business should expect to carry 10-15% less passengers and still get paid the same amount. In real times, that would be a rise in subvention.

The facts are that it is true that some subvention was cut to cut costs when the country was crippled, but also some subvention was cut simply because the number of passengers was decreasing.

But the tendering model the NTA is offering does exactly that, they get paid on a Km serviced nothing to do with how many if any passengers travel, they get paid the same if there is a 100% drop.

devnull · 22-08-2014 9:07pm

cdebru wrote: »

But the tendering model the NTA is offering does exactly that, they get paid on a Km serviced nothing to do with how many if any passengers travel, they get paid the same if there is a 100% drop.

This model is open to all operators, both public and private, Dublin Bus and Bus Eireann etc can all bid for these tenders. It's not like it's going to be restricted to only one type of operator.

If you think though it's unfair that it will apply on only the tendered routes and not existing DB PSO routes which will not be tendered, I guess you will be in support of a tendering o all routes asap then?

end of the road · 22-08-2014 9:15pm

Kamik wrote: »

Long story concerning me with a buggy occupying Wheelchair space in dining carriage and asked to leave to another carriage. ended up standing in entrance from Athlone to Dublin.

i'm sorry for your experience. however a wheelchair space is just that, a wheelchair space. if it was needed for a wheelchair then you being asked to move is fair enough i'm afraid

mickydoomsux · 22-08-2014 9:18pm

cdebru wrote: »

Sorry letters to management?

Internal memos/letters sent to the CEO in the early days of all this nonsense with a number of cost saving/revenue generating ideas.

Roundly ignored because a few of them would be "politically unpopular".

mickydoomsux · 22-08-2014 9:20pm

Kamik wrote: »

Long story concerning me with a buggy occupying Wheelchair space in dining carriage and asked to leave to another carriage. ended up standing in entrance from Athlone to Dublin.

Wheelchair spaces are exactly that and are labelled as such.

Having children isn't a disability.

Copyerselveson · 22-08-2014 9:21pm

devnull wrote: »

I have been on one, I just meant that it was not in the last year or so, normally I go by bus all of the time, but went by train a couple of times when bus was not an option.

So would you rather the railways were scrapped and long distance public transport handed over to private bus operators on the motorways?

end of the road · 22-08-2014 9:24pm

devnull wrote: »

Subvention levels decreased yes, but no transport business should expect to carry 10-15% less passengers and still get paid the same amount. In real times, that would be a rise in subvention.
The facts are that it is true that some subvention was cut to cut costs when the country was crippled, but also some subvention was cut simply because the number of passengers was decreasing.

thats all well and good but cutting the subvention has led to short carrige darts where long carrige darts are needed, trains in storage because the company can't afford to use them meaning overcrowding on busy services, this isn't simply a cut in subvention because of lower passenger numbers, this is is a continuous cycle of undermining any cost savings made by continuously cutting subsidy every time costs savings are made until eventually something will have to give, most likely services meaning passengers leave. frankly i believe this is a deliberate attempt to try undermine our railway and it discusts me. we can find money for private companies to do this and that yet we can't find it to keep our transport system running or to invest in it to bring it up to scratch so future generations can hopefully have it to use. the lot is about politics and i'm sick of it. if we are going to have public transport in this country then it needs to be payed for. people find the fares to high and also the subsidy to high. so the companies can't win. what gives and who pays? those are the questions

end of the road · 22-08-2014 9:26pm

devnull wrote: »

So you agree that
- Costs have been cut in areas of the business
- Passengers have had to pay higher fares

So therefore it's only right that with costs being brought down and passengers being paid more, the staff should do their bit and take a hit on their wages?

During that time, the average cost per employee has stayed around the same, despite the fact there have been large cost savings and large increases to passengers. All it screams out is that everyone else has to take the brunt of it except for the staff.

the staff have taken a lot of cuts via various means. how much more should they agree to? until they are on either minimum or below minimum wage? what happens if they take more cuts and thats not enough?

mickydoomsux · 22-08-2014 9:34pm

end of the road wrote: »

thats all well and good but cutting the subvention has led to short carrige darts where long carrige darts are needed, trains in storage because the company can't afford to use them meaning overcrowding on busy services, this isn't simply a cut in subvention because of lower passenger numbers, this is is a continuous cycle of undermining any cost savings made by continuously cutting subsidy every time costs savings are made until eventually something will have to give, most likely services meaning passengers leave. frankly i believe this is a deliberate attempt to try undermine our railway and it discusts me. we can find money for private companies to do this and that yet we can't find it to keep our transport system running or to invest in it to bring it up to scratch so future generations can hopefully have it to use. the lot is about politics and i'm sick of it. if we are going to have public transport in this country then it needs to be payed for. people find the fares to high and also the subsidy to high. so the companies can't win. what gives and who pays? those are the questions

Essentially people want a public transport system that isn't paid for from the public purse that somehow manages to keep running on God knows what.

Save money through running the smallest possible sets, cut wages/conditions of employees and increase fares to paying customers to allow us to keep providing 1.1 million people with All-Island Free Travel all while paying the company who is running the entire show less every year to do that.

Copyerselveson · 22-08-2014 9:35pm

There comes a point at which one has to ask what the objective of cutting the railway subvention is. Clearly it isnt just to save money.

If capital expenditure is being moved away from the railways and onto motorways rather than having a sensible balance of the two the question has to be asked "who benefits" and I am not taking about the taxpayer here, I am talking about the benefit of the stakeholders.

Who are the financial stakeholders? Is it the landowners who sell their land for a new road? Is it the oil companies who will benefit from less rail and more road? Is it the lobbyist who pockets a few bob from his or her paymasters for putting the right words in the right ears? Maybe someone who gave a nice political donation and now wants payback?

Ireland is not the most open or transparent of countries when it comes to lobbying and when some of those lobbyists become journalists then you can smell opinion being "shaped" in the media.

I believe there are savage and mostly unnecessary rail cuts being planned and the media are softening up public opinion for the inevitable. And we of course will take that like sheep like we always do.

cdebru · 22-08-2014 9:38pm

devnull wrote: »

So you agree that
- Costs have been cut in areas of the business
- Passengers have had to pay higher fares

So therefore it's only right that with costs being brought down and passengers being paid more, the staff should do their bit and take a hit on their wages?

During that time, the average cost per employee has stayed around the same, despite the fact there have been large cost savings and large increases to passengers. All it screams out is that everyone else has to take the brunt of it except for the staff.

The staff have already taken cuts in 2012 on the promise that they wouldn't be asked again, but the company was back looking for more 12 months later.

cdebru · 22-08-2014 9:44pm

devnull wrote: »

This model is open to all operators, both public and private, Dublin Bus and Bus Eireann etc can all bid for these tenders. It's not like it's going to be restricted to only one type of operator.

If you think though it's unfair that it will apply on only the tendered routes and not existing DB PSO routes which will not be tendered, I guess you will be in support of a tendering o all routes asap then?

You think they are going to the bother of tendering to just give them to DB and BE anyway ?

I think the method of payment is much more advantageous to operators than the model currently operates with CIE where the NTA just make a decision and CIE have to just do it and absorb any costs involved, the new leapcard child fares is the latest example where people now up to 19 years of age are entitled to school fares even if not in school, and the CIE companies have to absorb the lost revenue.

Kamik · 22-08-2014 9:58pm

end of the road wrote: »

i'm sorry for your experience. however a wheelchair space is just that, a wheelchair space. if it was needed for a wheelchair then you being asked to move is fair enough i'm afraid

I would naturally have moved if a wheelchair appeared on the train, that goes without saying.
But the space remained vacant all the way to dublin on a crowded train and i was the only man with a buggy on board AFAIK.

devnull · 22-08-2014 10:01pm

Copyerselveson wrote: »

So would you rather the railways were scrapped and long distance public transport handed over to private bus operators on the motorways?

No, I don't want the railways scrapped at all, but thanks very much for putting words into my mouth. I use the DART every day and even commuter trains from time to time as well,

It's clear though that the rail fans have a serious chip on their shoulder about buses, I only mention the fact that I use the bus more than the train to Cork and straight away that apparently makes me want to scrap the railways.

Talk about going over the top.

end of the road wrote: »

thats all well and good but cutting the subvention has led to short carrige darts where long carrige darts are needed, trains in storage because the company can't afford to use them meaning overcrowding on busy services, this isn't simply a cut in subvention because of lower passenger numbers, this is is a continuous cycle of undermining any cost savings made by continuously cutting subsidy every time costs savings are made until eventually something will have to give, most likely services meaning passengers leave

In case you hadn't noticed, the country hasn't been in the best of states over the last few years and all elements of the pubic sector and semi-states have had to take cuts in subvention and funding because of that. It's not like the country is in an economic boom and there is cash flowing around like there is no tomorrow unlike any other time in the countries history like there was 10 years ago.

Staff need to take more of a cut, I don't think 1.7% is unreasonable for someone on 56k. Many people in their jobs on far lower pay have had to face bigger cuts than that. Less staffing costs means more money to be spent elsewhere. The average staffing costs is still the same as it was several years ago, even just before the financial crisis. That cannot be right.

I haven't seen much dart overcrowding recently and eight car rains are plentiful in peak now, the only bad overcrowding I've seen was on Wednesday and that was down to the fact that there was serious line disruption caused by a broken down train and there being about 45 minutes between peak northbound trains which caused three trains worth all cramming onto one.

But I agree with you about the never ending circle, if the staff don't take a fair share of the cuts we will end up with a never ending circle of reduction of passengers, fare rises and service cuts which will go round and round and round since the company will have no choice but to do this since the staff are not willing to take any of the hit themselves.

A friend of mine worked for a company where the staff refused to take cuts. They increased prices to their customers and made wholesale cuts to many departments and within 6 months everyone was on the dole as the company went bust. Turns out on that a large customer were going to make a big order that could save the company the following week. However by that time the company was insolvent, the banks had called in the receivers, and it was too late.

It later turned out that had the 5% cuts for just one of the divisions been accepted rather than rejected after months and months of talks, the company would have gained some breathing space for another short while, would have got the deal, and everyones jobs would have been secure for a few years. Sadly the staff were too busy looking at the short term and everyone lost out big style because of it. Now some of the staff are either working in a different industry or the same one on wages up to 30% less - a far bigger cut than the 5% they turned down.

devnull · 22-08-2014 10:04pm

cdebru wrote: »

The staff have already taken cuts in 2012 on the promise that they wouldn't be asked again, but the company was back looking for more 12 months later.

The average pay in Irish Rail has not changed much in the last few years.

Whatever the reasons, that is unacceptable when the company have suffered such a loss of income as they have.

devnull · 22-08-2014 10:05pm

cdebru wrote: »

You think they are going to the bother of tendering to just give them to DB and BE anyway ?

Nobody will be 'given' contracts.

Whoever submits the best, fully costed bid should and will win.

end of the road · 22-08-2014 10:07pm

Kamik wrote: »

I would naturally have moved if a wheelchair appeared on the train, that goes without saying.
But the space remained vacant all the way to dublin on a crowded train and i was the only man with a buggy on board AFAIK.

did you make a complaint to irish rail? was it a member of train staff or railway staff who asked you to move? if it wasn't then your under no obligation to move, if it was then you are under an obligation to comply. as said a wheelchair space on a train is for wheelchairs and they will get the priority. the situation with dublin bus however is different it seems.

Kamik · 22-08-2014 10:16pm

end of the road wrote: »

did you make a complaint to irish rail? was it a member of train staff or railway staff who asked you to move? if it wasn't then your under no obligation to move, if it was then you are under an obligation to comply. as said a wheelchair space on a train if for wheelchairs and they will get the priority. the situation with dublin bus however is different it seems.

It was the cafeteria staff who told me i had to vacate the space.
I did not complain to either them or Irish Rail. although i did consider the H & S authority.
If they believe a child in a buggy is better left out in the door entrance than the safety of a vacant floor space within a carriage i would prefer not to use their services again ever!

Hilly Bill · 22-08-2014 10:18pm

end of the road wrote: »

the staff have taken a lot of cuts via various means. how much more should they agree to? until they are on either minimum or below minimum wage? what happens if they take more cuts and thats not enough?

They shouldnt agree to any cuts but the reality is that IR can make as many cuts to conditions and wages as they can legally do and staff cant really do anything about it. Its a case of either accepting it or find a different job. IR work to their own conditions and not to the demands of its staff. Staff can protest as much as they want and hopefully get what they want but the fact is that they work for IR and not the other way round. After these round of strikes, they will be down a weeks wage which will be nearly the first years amount of cut and the cuts will still be implemented.

end of the road · 22-08-2014 10:20pm

devnull wrote: »

It's clear though that the rail fans have a serious chip on their shoulder about buses

no, just those (not saying you) who are of the opinion that because we have motor ways and busses we should shut and rip up the railway so they most likely can cream more money. the exact same mindset as the 50s.

devnull wrote: »

In case you hadn't noticed, the country hasn't been in the best of states over the last few years and all elements of the pubic sector and semi-states have had to take cuts in subvention and funding because of that. It's not like the country is in an economic boom and there is cash flowing around like there is no tomorrow unlike any other time in the countries history like there was 10 years ago.

yes, but they can find it to give to health chiefs and use "contractual obligations" but can't realize public services need paying for in full.

devnull wrote: »

Staff need to take more of a cut, I don't think 1.7% is unreasonable for someone on 56k. Many people in their jobs on far lower pay have had to face bigger cuts than that. Less staffing costs means more money to be spent elsewhere. The average staffing costs is still the same as it was several years ago, even just before the financial crisis. That cannot be right.

staff as i said have taken cuts in many ways. apart from management, only those in safety critical jobs ern 56 k, that amount is payed for a reason. the problem is staff have been made redundant in large numbers however in the wrong places. few ticket checkers, unmaned stations, but more management then ever before, thats why costs haven't gone down if they haven't.

devnull wrote: »

I haven't seen much dart overcrowding recently and eight car rains are plentiful in peak now, the only bad overcrowding I've seen was on Wednesday and that was down to the fact that there was serious line disruption caused by a broken down train and there being about 45 minutes between peak northbound trains which caused three trains worth all cramming onto one.

thats due to summer holidays though, and how many have left?

devnull wrote: »

I agree with you about the never ending circle, if the staff don't take a fair share of the cuts we will end up with a never ending circle of reduction of passengers, fare rises and service cuts which will go round and round and round since the company will have no choice but to do this since the staff are not willing to take any of the hit themselves.

but whats a fair share. how much should they take? what if they take the fair share and the company wants more? how much should they go? until they are on minimum wage or below? all well and good saying how the staff should take a fair share (the amount which is different from person to person) but the business needs to be grown and it needs to be invested in to be competitive with the motor way. its politics that leads to undermining any cost savings.

Hilly Bill · 22-08-2014 10:24pm

Kamik wrote: »

It was the cafeteria staff who told me i had to vacate the space.
I did not complain to either them or Irish Rail. although i did consider the H & S authority.
If they believe a child in a buggy is better left out in the door entrance than the safety of a vacant floor space within a carriage i would prefer not to use their services again ever!

Catering staff cant ask you to move.

end of the road · 22-08-2014 10:25pm

Kamik wrote: »

It was the cafeteria staff who told me i had to vacate the space.
I did not complain to either them or Irish Rail. although i did consider the H & S authority.
If they believe a child in a buggy is better left out in the door entrance than the safety of a vacant floor space within a carriage i would prefer not to use their services again ever!

they believe you should follow the rules. if your in a wheelchair space and a member of staff asks you to move then you do so

devnull · 22-08-2014 10:27pm

A wheelchair should always get priority, sorry but I have no sympathy for anyone who can't deal with that. Buggies can be folded up, wheelchairs can't.

end of the road · 22-08-2014 10:28pm

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Catering staff cant ask you to move.

they probably could when they were direct employees of IE though. now they certainly have no authority being a private company

Irish Rail strike days

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