Irish Rail strike days

Hilly Bill

end of the road wrote: »

they probably could when they were direct employees of IE though. now they certainly have no authority being a private company

They couldnt even then unless you were obstructing them.

cdebru

devnull wrote: »

The average pay in Irish Rail has not changed much in the last few years.

Whatever the reasons, that is unacceptable when the company have suffered such a loss of income as they have.

They took cuts in pay and conditions, sick leave, holidays, overtime. They also had redundancies and productivity improvements to cover for the reductions in staff numbers.

devnull

cdebru wrote: »

They took cuts in pay and conditions, sick leave, holidays, overtime. They also had redundancies and productivity improvements to cover for the reductions in staff numbers.

Yet still, to this day, it has had little effect on the average cost per staff member to the company and that has to be addressed so it makes some real savings that will show in the accounts.

I do agree that there needs to be an examination of staffing numbers in each department, since using Irish Rail every work day, it is obvious in some areas they are overstaffed and in other areas they are understaffed.

Just look at the number of unstaffed stations. I've been at one or two late at night and there is not a soul around and if I was a young woman I'd be quite nervous about it.

cdebru

devnull wrote: »

Yet still, to this day, it has had little effect on the average cost per staff member to the company and that has to be addressed so it makes some real savings that will show in the accounts.

I do agree that there needs to be an examination of staffing numbers in each department, since using Irish Rail every work day, it is obvious in some areas they are overstaffed and in other areas they are understaffed.

Just look at the number of unstaffed stations. I've been at one or two late at night and there is not a soul around and if I was a young woman I'd be quite nervous about it.

But IE has reduced staff by 2200 in the last 12 years 450 in the last 2 years you can't just discount that , also just looking at averages doesn't tell you the story as you well know, if some peoples cost is reducing while others are increasing they can just cancel each other out, the simple fact is that the staff have overseen a reduction in costs of oblver 25% you can't just dismiss that it could not have happened without staff hard work and cooperation.

Kamik

devnull wrote: »

A wheelchair should always get priority, sorry but I have no sympathy for anyone who can't deal with that. Buggies can be folded up, wheelchairs can't.

Sympathy i can do without. of course wheelchairs can be folded, i done that often.
and i have absolutely no problem giving priority to wheelchairs.
The fact is that the sign on the window read something like...
"This space is for wheelchair use if one should need it"

Copyerselveson

Unstaffed stations do save significant sums of money. Do we spend money on staffing the stations?

Infini

Copyerselveson wrote: »

Unstaffed stations do save significant sums of money. Do we spend money on staffing the stations?

Not really saving much. Revenue at some booking offices has collapsed but the problem here is that theyve made them look obsolete by not upgrading them to modern standards with leap card machines and cc machines. That and putting machines more prominently in stations means people go to them because they cant pay with cc or top up their cards at the desk or even realise its there and it looks like the b/o isnt worth manning. Management forget that having a guy there is also security and responsible for cleaning as well and taking them out means they got to pay private security and cleaning companies money instead to open/close and clean the station.

Since theres noone there people can just walk through without paying even with all the new ticketchekers they robbed from other places theres just not enough to cover enough to enforce effectiely. The Dart on the northside and the maynooth lines for example have been a freeforall for ages now cause of this. While I can agree manning every single station might not be viable you cant have most of the dart line unmanned either its just as unviable.

Hilly Bill

The strike looks like a good thing for passengers

http://waterfordwhispersnews.com/2014/08/22/irish-rail-strike-to-save-commuters-billions-in-travel-expenses/.

mickydoomsux

Infini2 wrote: »

Not really saving much. Revenue at some booking offices has collapsed but the problem here is that theyve made them look obsolete by not upgrading them to modern standards with leap card machines and cc machines. That and putting machines more prominently in stations means people go to them because they cant pay with cc or top up their cards at the desk or even realise its there and it looks like the b/o isnt worth manning. Management forget that having a guy there is also security and responsible for cleaning as well and taking them out means they got to pay private security and cleaning companies money instead to open/close and clean the station.

Since theres noone there people can just walk through without paying even with all the new ticketchekers they robbed from other places theres just not enough to cover enough to enforce effectiely. The Dart on the northside and the maynooth lines for example have been a freeforall for ages now cause of this. While I can agree manning every single station might not be viable you cant have most of the dart line unmanned either its just as unviable.

The line I work on has checkers on about 20% of services, the rest is a free for all. Hard to know how much difference it makes when the majority of people have passes anyway.

Also, do the people who think that the employees should take wage cuts because of dwindling passengers numbers think the same staff should get raises tied to rising passenger numbers? That's the only way that argument can make sense, right?

Copyerselveson

If there's an easy way to walk onto the platform without paying and walk off at the destination without showing a valid ticket or pass then the design and implementation isn't right.

Unmanned stations with cc machines, barriers and cctv can work, in fact most stations here in London are unmanned for a lot of the day apart from peak times.
CCTV and customer intercoms help with the security aspect, but revenue can't afford to be lost and sadly we can't rely on the honesty of a lot of people.

RPOs in plain clothes on the trains aren't a luxury, they are a necessity as someone will always try and buck the system. That's why high penalty fares and if necessary prosecutions are needed to ram home the message that while you can ride the railway, you won't take the railway for a ride.

Banjoxed

mickydoomsux wrote: »

Hard to know how much difference it makes when the majority of people have passes anyway.

The majority? Is that backed up with stats of some kind, at all?

Infini

Copyerselveson wrote: »

If there's an easy way to walk onto the platform without paying and walk off at the destination without showing a valid ticket or pass then the design and implementation isn't right.

Unmanned stations with cc machines, barriers and cctv can work, in fact most stations here in London are unmanned for a lot of the day apart from peak times.
CCTV and customer intercoms help with the security aspect, but revenue can't afford to be lost and sadly we can't rely on the honesty of a lot of people.

RPOs in plain clothes on the trains aren't a luxury, they are a necessity as someone will always try and buck the system. That's why high penalty fares and if necessary prosecutions are needed to ram home the message that while you can ride the railway, you won't take the railway for a ride.

While you bring up a valid point the biggest difference is that england has rail cops we dont. They can fine people on the spot and arrest them on the spot we have to call guards and wait for them. Hell theyre running police trains disguised as normal trains in some places to catch gurriers messing on the line there. Costs them money to have them there which here the best option would be to keep the stations manned.

Hilly Bill

Banjoxed wrote: »

The majority? Is that backed up with stats of some kind, at all?

It does seem that the paying passenger is in a minority.

kingshankly

Most of the staff don't want to strike in fairness but obviously won't pass pickets
I voted in favour of the pay cuts as I didn't think it was too extreme in comparison to what people have endured
It will cause a lot of in house fighting as i know some folk will not want to lose 5 days pay which adds up to money which will be lost with the pay cut
Hopefully after Monday it will be sorted by the time the next one comes around
49% of us drivers in siptu voted in favour of pay cuts so it's not like we are being ignorant and greedy
Finally hope you all have a safe journey Monday by which ever means you chose

devnull

I was in Malahide a while back and it was quite late and it actually was IMPOSSIBLE to buy a ticket there, since the main station with the office, and ticket machines and validators was LOCKED UP!!!

A small wooden gate was open to allow access to the platform, but no access to ticket machines at any point and the purple validator screen wasn't on so impossible to tag on and off with leap either.

Seeing as most of the pax would be going to stations that are unstaffed and have gates fully open, anyone who got on that train late at night would have not paid. How can that be sustainable? It's bad enough to have stations unstaffed, it's quite another to decide that we don't want to collect revenue from even the honest passengers too!

Hrududu

Does anyone know if Bus Eireann are planning on putting extra busses on these days? I'm meant to go somewhere but now I'm paranoid that if I rely on getting the bus back that it will be full by the time it gets to my stop with all the passengers that would have gone on the train.

devnull

Where are you going to and from?

Bus Eireann say they don't have a hue amount of extra capacity to put on. A large number of private operators are putting on extra capacity, details can be found here:

http://www.transportforireland.ie/rail-strike/

Infini

To be honest in the end this might've been avoided had the Government or Management been serious about it but from looking at everything so far they simply didnt give a fiddlers about either the customers or the workers. Unions warned from the outset that any pushing through cuts without agreement would lead to a strike and while people might debate and say they shouldnt be striking the fact that Franks decided to push through the cuts on the 24th triggering the strikes on that day and later turning up in Mauritius of all places when it was all due to kick off shows everyone pretty much the attitude that certain parts management seem to have.

So far management and the goverment say they havent got the money and say its for its survival of the company but theres already been a number of points made here.

For management:

*They say the cuts are neccessary for the survival of the company.
*They say that the cuts are only temporary.
*They say that theres no money to give to the railway.
*The Minister said that hes lookin for value for the taxpayer.

However the other side of the argument from the unions and staff is alot more detailed and alot more hard hitting if you read into it expecially from this thread.

*Staff agreed 3 years ago to significant saving and reduction in al/sick leave and other entitlments in return for core pay being maintained.
*The result was a reduction in costs by 25% from €441m to €312m.
*The subvention was repeatedly cut after these saving instead of maintaining them at even 2011 levels.
*The result of this looks like the goverment is trying to undermine the railway deliberately thus destroying any trust left with the unions members.
*The trust is gone completely and the workers cant trust management to deliver on restoring the pay after the end of the proposed new agreement because they didnt maintain the previous agreement.
*Theres also money being paid to developers for underused motorways that couldve instead easily plugged the remaing shortfall here.
*In Dublin Paticularly on the northside DART area and Maynooth line its a near free for all situation in terms of people travelling without tickets resulting in lost revenue.
*Enforcement is difficult to maintain due to unmanned stations and not enough ticketcheckers.
*This means theres a sizable amout of people travelling for nothing or buying child instead of adult tickets and getting away with it.
*Stations being locked up completely earlier on parts of the northside due to lack of staff/manning and security issues.
*Inner city stations being undermanned to unsafe levels at times due to lack of staff.
*Staff regularly asked to work overtime to plug these gaps thus pushing up the paybill.
*Management jobs have been the only jobs been filled or advertised in the last year while the frontline jobs where the buisness and customers are have been extremely eroded to untenable levels.
*The Free Travel scheme is also a mess because of too many people having them (1/3rd of the pop) and the governent not paying their correct share for them.
*Giving out so many passes to people that dont need them as well. Old folks and severely disabled people like blindness/wheelchair bound or physically unable to work due to chronic illness should obviously be free but those with minor disabilities getting them is ridiculous and not only overloads the system but brings its integrity into disrepute. Some have stated they have a free pass just because they cant drive even if theyre working. To play devils advocate here though if your able to work and make a living why should you be free just because you cant drive because that aint fair on the person paying €1200+ per year for their annual ticket just because therye not disabled.
*Report recently published is showing the railway is underfunded by €60million showing the unsustainability of cutting the subsidy so low.

I could go on longer but to be blunt here IMO the railway isnt so much a buisness its an INFRASTRUCTURE. Its something that seriously needs investing in expecially with the DART underground and Rail links to the airport as well as the unfinished Navan line. Closing more stations is pointless as is closing lines things seriously need fixing because roads arent the ultimate end all to everything. Many might think that this might last a few days but I think it could go on for longer theres several issues besides pay that just simply HAVE to be sorted out ASAP if this is gonna be resolved. Ultimatly trust is the biggest issue and the goverment and management side are the ones that have undermined it.

mickydoomsux

The government needs to decide whether CIE as a whole is a commercial venture or a public service provider and fund it appropriately based on this decision.

It can't be both because that simply doesn't work.

Atlantic Dawn

Why are Dublin Bus not going to accept train tickets on the strike days? They always accept them in the case of mechanical failure or delays. Do the unions in Dublin Bus have a block on accepting Irish Rail tickets in the event of a strike? Both companies are semi state, should it not be a given that they must accept each others tickets in the event of a strike?

cdebru

Hilly Bill wrote: »

They shouldnt agree to any cuts but the reality is that IR can make as many cuts to conditions and wages as they can legally do and staff cant really do anything about it. Its a case of either accepting it or find a different job. IR work to their own conditions and not to the demands of its staff. Staff can protest as much as they want and hopefully get what they want but the fact is that they work for IR and not the other way round. After these round of strikes, they will be down a weeks wage which will be nearly the first years amount of cut and the cuts will still be implemented.

Legally they can't make any cuts, it is a contract and one side can not change a contract without the consent of the other party to the contract. That's how contracts work hence why the government couldn't remove the top up payments to the executives in the health sector, because they would have left themselves open to legal action for breach of contract. So ask yourself why hasn't the NBRU and SIPTU gone to court to prevent IE unilaterally altering their members contracts instead of depriving them of pay to force them to accept the changes later ???
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/hse-u-turn-means-some-may-be-allowed-to-keep-top-ups-1.1828927

cython

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

Why are Dublin Bus not going to accept train tickets on the strike days? They always accept them in the case of mechanical failure or delays. Do the unions in Dublin Bus have a block on accepting Irish Rail tickets in the event of a strike? Both companies are semi state, should it not be a given that they must accept each others tickets in the event of a strike?

Irish Rail and Luas would not accept tickets from Dublin Bus when DB went on strike either, and while I can't recall the exact reasoning as to why the remaining operators wouldn't cover the strike-affected operator, I think it was something to do with the fact that the other "normal" service disruptions are outside of anyone's control (and there is likely reciprocation which is difficult to balance when it comes to strikes), whereas industrial action is (and this may prove unpopular to say, but it is ultimately true) within the combined control of the operator and employees. I don't believe it was a union decision though, but rather that of the company.

Hilly Bill

cdebru wrote: »

Legally they can't make any cuts, it is a contract and one side can not change a contract without the consent of the other party to the contract. That's how contracts work hence why the government couldn't remove the top up payments to the executives in the health sector, because they would have left themselves open to legal action for breach of contract. So ask yourself why hasn't the NBRU and SIPTU gone to court to prevent IE unilaterally altering their members contracts instead of depriving them of pay to force them to accept the changes later ???
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/hse-u-turn-means-some-may-be-allowed-to-keep-top-ups-1.1828927

I did say what they can do legally , if its not legal then they cant do it . Staff didnt get new contracts when they got a pay rise so could they bring down to the original rate? If you got a new job with a higher rate then you would have a got a new contract.
Its a good question as why they havent gone down that road, surely it would have been mentioned in the Labour court though.
A group called the 4 skins had a song about this, One Law for them and another one for us.

steveblack

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

Why are Dublin Bus not going to accept train tickets on the strike days? They always accept them in the case of mechanical failure or delays. Do the unions in Dublin Bus have a block on accepting Irish Rail tickets in the event of a strike? Both companies are semi state, should it not be a given that they must accept each others tickets in the event of a strike?

When train or LUAS not working, Dublin Bus accept tickets simply because of MONEY.
Agreements in place for payment to DB by IE ,LUAS for the time DB accept tickets.
Nothing to do with unions.
If IE dont pay for DB and LUAS to accept tickets ,they won't.

monument

steveblack wrote: »

CIE get less than €100 per year for each free travel pass, which gives unlimited free travel on IE,DB & BE.

If the free pass was abolished in the morning and all of these free travelers stayed at home all week and only went out once a week to do the shopping and used the DART.
The lowest fare possible is €1.70 with LEAP.
Once into town and back home for a total cost of €3.40 .
52 weeks at €3.40 for a total of €176.80 for one journey a week on the DART.

Is it any wonder the prices are going up each year for fare paying passengers, someone has got to pay for the free travel.

Or maybe the rest of the government could think about making the department of social welfare pay its way? Then the minister and other might be less inclined to offer and unlimited ticket with no peak restrictions?

Banjoxed

monument wrote: »

Or maybe the rest of the government could think about making the department of social welfare pay its way? Then the minister and other might be less inclined to offer and unlimited ticket with no peak restrictions?

How exactly? Treadmills? Oakum picking?

mickydoomsux

monument wrote: »

Or maybe the rest of the government could think about making the department of social welfare pay its way? Then the minister and other might be less inclined to offer and unlimited ticket with no peak restrictions?

Indeed.

For (an extreme) example if someone was traveling on a day return to Dublin from the station i work in every day for a year it would cost an eye-watering €9438 in day return tickets.

IE gets roughly €100 per year for someone doing this on a freebie. That doesn't even cover a week of their travel in standard ticket prices.

How is this considered sustainable or fair? Are 1.1 million people in the nation really that hard-up that they should be handed a document worth nearly 10k per annum?

Banjoxed

mickydoomsux wrote: »

Indeed.

For (an extreme) example if someone was traveling on a day return to Dublin from the station i work in every day for a year it would cost an eye-watering €9438 in day return tickets.

IE gets roughly €100 for someone doing this on a freebie. That doesn't even cover a week of their travel in standard ticket prices.

How is this considered sustainable or fair? Are 1.1 million people in the nation really that hard-up that they should be handed a document worth nearly 10k per annum?

Well it ain't worth a damn up here in North East Donegal, where new bus operators in the wake of the collapse of the Swilly have not been accepted into the scheme. That will put a smile on the face of all our Gradgrinds.

billyhead

What is the likelihood that the remaining days of the planned strike next month are called off or will they be definitely going ahead.

Infini

Banjoxed wrote: »

Well it ain't worth a damn up here in North East Donegal, where new bus operators in the wake of the collapse of the Swilly have not been accepted into the scheme. That will put a smile on the face of all our Gradgrinds.

Its sad that they ripped up the railway in the northeast I would say people would pay for a properly planned and maintained railway off the sligo line to letterkenny and into derry as well.

billyhead wrote: »

What is the likelihood that the remaining days of the planned strike next month are called off or will they be definitely going ahead.

Unless the management side withdraw the unilateral pay cut and the goverment start seriously look like they'll maintain the rail network expect things to continue as planned or escalate.