Manliness/Masculinity

Czarcasm · 04-08-2014 12:58PM

Links234 wrote: »

It really says a lot about the lack of security some guys have in their masculinity if they're so quick to admonish other men for being limp-wristed, in touch with their feelings, being a hipster/metrosexual or whatever the latest buzzword to put someone else down so you can feel better about yourselves is these days,

It's not about putting other men down at all Links. In fact, more times I've found that the opposite is quite true - Men who behave like they just walked off a Milan catwalk sneering at other men because they dress in a proper fitting suit, or they wear a jeans and tee shirt, they don't particularly pay much attention to the latest "on-trend" fashion for men, and because of this they are somehow "reserved, old-fashioned", etc. I used work in an environment where I would go to work clean in the morning, and come home filthy at night. It wasn't a place for a fashion parade and I never felt the need to ask my work colleagues "Who are you wearing?". Nowadays I wear a shirt and tie to work, and when asked "Who are you wearing?", you wanna see the "disgusted" face drop when I say "Penneys" :pac:

or god forbid someone who lives in a city and doesn't need a car because they use public transport and therefor have no call to ever change a tire. And honestly, changing a tire isn't a "man skill", it's just a skill that someone may or may not need. My girlfriend could change a tire, but she's from the country, pretty much everyone in her family can do that as far as I know, and that's because of nessecity. What were so-called "man skills" before cars were invented? Would anyone here know a skill like shoeing a horse, or something else that's no longer relevent to most of our lives?

You mean like sewing, knitting, crochet? Yes, I know how to do those, I can shoe a horse (I don't even like horses, magnificent beasts, but when one dances on your head as a child, I know all horses aren't like that, but I'd rather not take any chances), I can also do women's make-up and hair, but these are not things I feel everyone needs to know, whereas some men on the other hand they feel a need to let you know that your skin looks dry, that you should try such and such a "product" in your hair, that their facial bum fluff qualifies as a beard.

I'm often more delighted to be out doing a days manual labour than I am stuck in the office, and any opportunity I get to get my hands dirty, I'm there! That's why I like going to Men's sheds, because this time last year I had no idea how to build a boat. I come from an engineering background (my old man was a fitter/turner) and I figured my metalwork skills would be easily transferable. How wrong was I?

It's a totally different kind of craftsmanship, and city slickers really only ever see the finished "product", to use their word. They never see the weeks of manual work that goes into creating a real work of art. They think that art begins and ends with music and painting. I know plenty about music and art too, and listening to FLAC quality audio on beats headphones really is missing the point.

And whatever happened to just being yourself?

Nothing ever happened to just being yourself. By all means be yourself. I'm being myself too when I say I have no time for a man acting like a pretentious twat. That's not being himself, that's being what he thinks his peers will approve of. That's being someone who simply craves attention and validation. I simply can't be doing with that nonsense as I have no time for it.

catallus · 04-08-2014 01:01PM

FWIW, I think skinny jeans are uncomfortable abominations.

Mardy Bum · 04-08-2014 01:01PM

Being a man means being responsible. Being a woman means being responsible. Simple as that really and no need to get bogged down in gender stereotypes.

Wishiwasa Littlebitaller · 04-08-2014 01:06PM

Wibbs wrote: »

As for insecurity in men? I would say IMHO and looking around me that there is more of it about these days. Seems like a fair few men feel they've lost their way. I reckon that's why you see so much manosphere stuff online. It's a reaction, particularly in the US of A, to the background noise of boys being often medicalised for acting like boys all the way to the provably BS moral panic notion of "rape culture" and they're to blame/responsible" guff that's about.

Absolutely. Astonishes me that certain people seem blind to it.

Masculinity has nothing to do with the ability to change tires or shoe horses. I mentioned yesterday on a thread how when boys are around 13, and they start noticing how girls are behaving much differently, they get told that girls mature faster, thereby implying that boys behavior at that age is immature but the truth is, it is not immature at all. Send ten couples off on holiday together who are all in their 40s and you will pretty much seem the same traits in the majority of the men: have these men still not 'matured'? Men are portrayed as fools, not to be taken seriously on our TVs and violence towards men is considered punchline fodder.

As for the 'rape culture' bs - it's everywhere. It's pervasive and I feel the idea of it has deliberately and sinisterly being fed to young girls in colleges over the past couple of decades which quite obvious intention. The more male sexuality is shamed, the better in certain quarters. Yet female sexuality is celebrated even when it is aggressive and exploitative.. but, I feel all this is men's fault. We have let a feminist agenda fuel so much of society's constructs out of male guilt and never really knew how to stop it. Most men around today, under the age of 40 at least, have never had the respect of women and so why would they demand it, let alone feel worthy of it.

Here's a small chunk of an excellent article I recently read:

Masculinity - A Threatened Concept

This is a dilemma faced by men within our society today; and in particular, young men. If you were born pre circa 1969, the world and men’s role within it, was a different place. Being born after that date means that as a male, as you have learned one thing, the sociological goalposts have been constantly shifting, requiring continuous adaptation of behaviour and expectation. The train thundering unhindered down the line, carrying the Women’s Equality standard is unstoppable and sometimes out-of-control. As a result it is little wonder that today’s male offspring face a life of oppression, career and life opportunities withdrawn due to their sex not their abilities, and increasing rates of depression and suicide and a host of associated maladies, including alcoholism, crime, violence, younger mortality, drug abuse and poor or absent fathering of offspring. This is not an exhaustive list.

Feminism in its extreme, has damaged men and masculinity, ironically often to its’ own detriment. Andrea Dworkin, the American feminist, castigated masculinity as an ‘evil’ in her speech "The Future of Feminism," (1995). In her conclusion she called on women to ‘sabotage men’, to ‘damage them’ and to ‘fight everything masculine’ – ironic that such activities should require in women the very traits she so despised. Such extreme feminist views (as do all extremist views), broadly damage the very cause they seek to promote – yet still achieve a serious level of collateral damage and disruption in the process.

Are the men of today so oppressed by the insidious feminist ideologies bled into their subconscious through a constant stream of legislative, media and social agendas, that they know no difference, other than that something isn’t quite right? The men of today have been let down by men (and women) of previous generations who have failed to ensure that a fair society is fair and that equality should mean exactly that and no more.

hatrickpatrick · 04-08-2014 01:09PM

Nobody should be forced into any personality, but to attack someone who happens to identify with a stereotype is ridiculous.

EG There's no reason guys should have to feel like they need to be massive (in terms of strength / muscles) to be attractive, but those who enjoy bodybuilding and identify with it as part of their masculinity shouldn't be shamed or attacked for it.

Same goes for the ongoing attempts to purge all feminine gender roles by attacking women who choose to conform to them. That's not how you win people over to an argument, that's how you piss people off and alienate them.

Wibbs · 04-08-2014 01:10PM

What I find interesting when such a subject crops up is the irony of "liberal" types who are quick to point out and rail against "shaming" when it suits often use it themselves when it suits their point of view.

EG

Links234 wrote: »

It really says a lot about the lack of security some guys have in their masculinity

SilverScreen wrote: »

Unfortunately there's still plenty of lugheads out there who think otherwise and are hiding some serious insecurities.

Links234 wrote: »

You know Czarcasm, it's not the guys in the skinny jeans who come off like they're having an identity crises of some sort

No doubt more such stuff will be along shortly.

And whatever happened to just being yourself?

Ah the catchall and ultimately weak response and solution to the ills of the modern world.

SilverScreen wrote:

As regards men becoming more feminine I think this is more to do with society becoming more tolerant

IE feminine = more tolerant/masculine = intolerant. Which is daft.

Would anyone here know a skill like shoeing a horse, or something else that's no longer relevent to most of our lives?

I can knap stone tools and make fire. I win the internet.

donfers · 04-08-2014 01:16PM

I think the reassertion of masculinity thing is down to the daily barrage of "How we can empower women/how women have it bad/how men are to blame" stuff we get in almost every mainstream media outlet out there

Thankfully a lot of us are wise enough to write off most of this stuff as the one-eyed politically fashionable agenda-driven nonsense it is, but I think some guys who have known nothing but this stuff whenever they consume any info about gender politics will obviously react to that by

a) turning into the aforementioned limp-wristed fashionista "so so sorry ladies for the sins of my forefathers - kindly place your high-heels on my back and climb up to your pedestal"

or

b) turning into the monsters they are portrayed to be; heh if I am being accused of being like that, I may as well act the part

or

c) paying it no heed - realising it's just the way the world works and that at the moment women's issues are in fashion and pro-women views have basically carte blanche to say what they like no matter how fascist or sexist or hypocritical it may be - eventually things will turn again, indeed they may already be turning and there will be a reaction to this

the world is spinning and so too are the politics within it - it's all just a PR game but it can have damaging consequences

The truth though is that men and women are different, that masculinity and femininity will always exist, that both are vital and that neither should have to apologise for anything. Yes it's fine to have more feminine men and more masculine women but equally and we should be screaming this from the rooftops - and for whatever reason it seems unfashionable to do so these days - let's applaud the many many masculine men and feminine women out there who are having their innate nature constantly questioned. In many ways though they are above this trivial debate, just living their lives the way they feel comfortable. Manly men and feminine women - hats off to all of them, they rarely get the praise they deserve. In this world where we are supposed to be all things to all men and women I admire those who keep it simple and refuse to be shamed for being who they are - it works both ways!

Wibbs · 04-08-2014 01:26PM

Wishiwasa Littlebitaller wrote: »

they get told that girls mature faster, thereby implying that boys behavior at that age is immature but the truth is, it is not immature at all.

Well my answer to that nonsense is; you contend that girls mature faster than boys? It doesn't help your case very much as the evolutionary history of our species as been the trend towards taking longer to mature. The longer the childhood the smarter the human. That or Feck off with your homespun nonsense. Depends on the audience

As for the 'rape culture' bs - it's everywhere. It's pervasive and I feel the idea of it has deliberately and sinisterly being fed to young girls in colleges over the past couple of decades which quite obvious intention. The more male sexuality is shamed, the better in certain quarters.

Yep, though to be fair the extreme of that guff is to be found in US colleges. It's becoming more widespread alright and you see people buying the BS elsewhere in the world(recently Journal.ie rehashed the 1 in 4 guff) but that's the origin point. The joke is, while US government official stats show the crime of rape actually dropped in the last decade and official college campus stats show the same, these "women's studies" eejits claim it's an epidemic of one in four, actually now it's one in three. Moral panic based on nada, but made up stats, recieved wisdom and the gender politics these eejits are trying to pimp. Well when extreme socialism was proven to be a dud these yahoos had to look elsewhere. Of course what they don't mention is that in US and Canadian colleges the ratio of men to women is now 1 to 2. Women make up twice the amount of college students and graduates. Big change in less than a generation. Of course to question this particular rape culture stuff is to invite all sorts of flaming. Though it's usually summed up as "you're wrong" or deflected with the emotionals of "one rape is too many", reality not being a strong point with these extremists.

A Primal Nut · 04-08-2014 01:27PM

To be fair, it's not just masculinity that's being suppressed. Femininity is too. Girls who act overly feminine are seen as letting down the feminist cause. Every so often I read an article in a left-leaning newspapar criticise women for the choices they make, for example the criticism of female Flight Attendants who volunteer to model for the Ryanair swimsuit calendar because they think it's a fun thing to do and because they enjoy it. There's nothing extreme feminists like to do more than judge other women's life choices. In these feminists eyes it's not possible for these women to enjoy it, they must have been exploited. Not most femininsts I know think like this, but more the ones who write for newspapers.

Basically the media is shoving the "gender is a construct" idea down our throats without any evidence; or despite the fact that most ordinary people around the world don't see it that way, and don't want to. Most women I know, shock horror, want a guy with masculine traits. But by listening to the media you would think something else entirely.

Wibbs · 04-08-2014 01:30PM

A Primal Nut wrote: »

To be fair, it's not just masculinity that's being suppressed. Femininity is too. Girls who act overly feminine are seen as letting down the feminist cause.

True dat. It can go both ways alright.

suicide_circus · 04-08-2014 01:35PM

Tail Docker wrote: »

I shave with a knife, just to keep it real.*

*may not be true.

That's not a knife, it's a spoon

suicide_circus · 04-08-2014 01:40PM

Wibbs wrote: »

What I find interesting when such a subject crops up is the irony of "liberal" types who are quick to point out and rail against "shaming" when it suits often use it themselves when it suits their point of view.

EG

No doubt more such stuff will be along shortly.

Ah the catchall and ultimately weak response and solution to the ills of the modern world.

IE feminine = more tolerant/masculine = intolerant. Which is daft.

I can knap stone tools and make fire. I win the internet.

What you're noticing there is the increasing trend of the intolerance of the tolerant. People who are liberal, right on and ttolerant to a tee until you try to espouse something they personally aren't into.

Wishiwasa Littlebitaller · 04-08-2014 01:46PM

A Primal Nut wrote: »

To be fair, it's not just masculinity that's being suppressed. Femininity is too. Girls who act overly feminine are seen as letting down the feminist cause.

Absolutely.

Rad fems pushed the notion that femininity itself was a social construct and while I think most people would concede that certain aspects of what is considered masculine and feminine, can be, they pushed gender neutrality to an absurd degree that it pretty much all is and are still doing so, to a laughable degree, when allowed:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9HwfVPmFNlg

BikeQueery · 04-08-2014 02:07PM

Men and women are different and the same, our differences can be generally described as masculine and feminine traits. They're to be respected and appreciated. There's a trend to feminise society and call it gender neutrality that isn't going to help anybody, save possibly as a better starting point to begin appreciating each other for what we are.

I see Scandinavians attempts to make their culture androgynous and I only think it's a good idea in that from it may develop an appreciation for both genders founded on a strange kind of sexless equality. That's something that might grow from that in the future

But it's just unhealthy not to be true to nature.

FTA69 · 04-08-2014 02:16PM

Personally I can see the need for feminism as an active political and social force, both in our own western societies and especially in the Third World. Women are chronically under-represented in a myriad of aspects; from company directors to MPs to certain professions. There is also the large question of violence against women and issues such as rape. The only reason the lot of women has improved in society (along with that of workers, gays etc) is as a result of struggle and agitation. There has been a lot achieved but there is also a lot more to do.

Personally I don't blame feminists for the way some men are beginning to change. In fact, the "beauty culture" that feminists often critique is increasingly starting to affect men to the point the poor bastards are wearing women's jeans and using moisturiser.

Wibbs · 04-08-2014 02:37PM

FTA69 wrote: »

Personally I can see the need for feminism as an active political and social force, both in our own western societies and especially in the Third World.

Aye, but in the west it pays to actually look behind the headlines.

Women are chronically under-represented in a myriad of aspects; from company directors to MPs to certain professions.

You want to be a company director, then start a company. I know plenty of women that have. MP's are voted in by the populace. Women get voted in. Bringing quotas into democracy defeats the purpose of it. Certain professions? Which ones? More women are entering the professions than ever before. More women than men graduate university than men. For any list you care to draw up I can draw up a similar list that seem to be against men.

There is also the large question of violence against women and issues such as rape.

Sure, but again look behind the headlines. If you were to build the perfect victim of violence who would you imagine? A guy between the ages of 16 and 25 is the statistical winner there. Domestic violence? Nearly half of all domestic violence has the woman as the aggressor, indeed they're up to two to three times more likely to be the aggressor in one sided domestic violence. How many halfway houses for battered husbands have you heard of? Exactly.

The only reason the lot of women has improved in society (along with that of workers, gays etc) is as a result of struggle and agitation.

I agree, however it's better to agitate and struggle without using bullshít as a weapon. BTW this is NOT "oh but look at the poor men" either, sod that crap, just don't piss down my back and tell me it's raining.

suicide_circus · 04-08-2014 02:45PM

^^^^you're some swine, wibbs

Wishiwasa Littlebitaller · 04-08-2014 02:54PM

FTA69 wrote: »

There is also the large question of violence against women and issues such as rape.

http://www.theguardian.com/society/2010/sep/05/men-victims-domestic-violence

The only reason the lot of women has improved in society (along with that of workers, gays etc) is as a result of struggle and agitation. There has been a lot achieved but there is also a lot more to do.

At lot more to do? At what price though? And is it necessary?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/7474801.stm

FTA69 · 04-08-2014 02:56PM

You want to be a company director, then start a company. I know plenty of women that have. MP's are voted in by the populace. Women get voted in.

Women consist of around 15% of TDs in Ireland. Personally I don't think it a point of no consequence that women are chronically under-represented at a political level. The question needs to be asked as to why women 1) aren't as frequent participants in political parties to begin with and 2) aren't putting themselves forward when they do attain position within those parties. There's a large amount of societal factors which cause that that need to be addressed there. Similarly there's a raft of more subtle barriers that women face in society too.

Domestic violence? Nearly half of all domestic violence has the woman as the aggressor, indeed they're up to two to three times more likely to be the aggressor in one sided domestic violence. How many halfway houses for battered husbands have you heard of? Exactly.

How many women murder their partners in a violent rage compared to the other way around? In the UK an average of two women a week are murdered by their partner or former partner. Similarly women are much more likely to be the victim of multiple incidents of domestic abuse. How many men are raped or seriously sexually assaulted by women every year?

I'm not denying that domestic violence is the preserve of men alone Wibbs, but you'd be a fool to insinuate that violence against men occurs to the same degree of severity and frequency as it does women. Even then, the likes of Women's Aid etc usually have no problem stating that domestic abuse can effect men as well. I've never met a feminist who denies its existence or anything.

(This has gone wildly off topic. I just wanted a thread where we could rant at men who drink white wine in the pub and wear skinny jeans.)

Hotfail.com · 04-08-2014 02:57PM

Wishiwasa Littlebitaller wrote: »

At lot more to do? At what price though? And is it necessary?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/7474801.stm

I'm confused.

Equality minister Harriet Harman has set out plans to allow firms to discriminate in favour of female and ethnic minority job candidates.

Followed by:

She said firms should be able to choose a woman over a man of equal ability if they wanted to - or vice versa.

Surely that's already the case?

Rough Sleeper · 04-08-2014 02:59PM

FTA69 wrote: »

I was raised by my grandparents for a large period of my life and my grandfather is an old school, hard as f*cking nails rural farmer. I look back with fondness the values he inculcated in me. Most of these were concerned with not being a waste of space, standing up for yourself, not being a scrounger and generally not being a limp-wristed fashionista.

The problem here is that the first three are positive values that aren't in any way unique to "manly men."

A guy in my class springs immediately to mind. He's the sort who'll sport whatever haircut is mode at the time, and rocks skinny jeans as many days as not. You'd probably have him down as a "limp-wristed fashionista," but he's an intervarsity boxing champion. Conor McGregor would probably be labelled a hipster if he were seen sipping a pint outside Pygmalion in a suit. Similarly, I can think of plenty of people who work in event management in positions that require a high level of sociability, confidence and assertiveness who'd look a bit poncy to people outside that scene.

On the other hand, there are plenty of people who aspire to "manliness" yet are completely maladjusted to modern society. Neckbeards would be the most extreme example . They lack sociability and adaptability, but instead of viewing it as some intrinsic flaw that that they should work to fix, they blame the rest of the world and the supposed feminisation of society. They dress in fedoras and trenchcoats - sartorial choices associated with manly men of times gone by - smoke pipes and drink whiskey, all because of some misplaced view thaty the whole world is out of joint and they're the few real men left holding the fort. The funny thing is that if they were born in the 50s they wouldn't have been merely subjected to mild derision, they'd have been beaten all over the shop by a belt buckle.

I'd totally agree that the notion that men who are physical and interested in manual activities are all knuckle-dragging troglodytes is incredibly ignorant. But no more so than the view that men who dress in skinny jeans are effeminate wastes of space. I kind of get the impression that people are drawing these views from 2008 internet polemics about Williamsburg hipsters than actual, real-life experience.

Annasopra · 04-08-2014 03:30PM

Czarcasm wrote: »

Because men who think that women cry at the drop of a hat really don't know all that much about women.

Most women know how to dress with style to suit their figure. A man squeezing his testicles into trousers that are a couple of sizes too small for him is never going to be a good look. Same goes for these "skinny suits", they make men look particularly waif-like, also not a good look.

It's not that I feel particularly strongly against it, I just find it very hard to respect men who behave like they are having an identity crisis of some sort.

I really really don't get that at all

Firstly - I asked "why do you feel so strongly against Men who might not display stereotypical masculine or macho traits?" - I dont see what that has to do with women crying

Secondly - I dont get why you assume that all men who might be doing something not stereotypically masculine or macho are going through an identity crisis

Thirdly - So what if they are having an identity crisis? Whats the issue that you cant respect people going through an identity crisis?

Clankatron · 04-08-2014 03:37PM

Rough Sleeper wrote: »

They dress in fedoras and trenchcoats - sartorial choices associated with manly men of times gone by - smoke pipes and drink whiskey,

And these are the non hipsters?

Also, what is a neckbeard?

SilverScreen · 04-08-2014 03:38PM

Wibbs wrote: »

IE feminine = more tolerant/masculine = intolerant. Which is daft.

That wasn't the point I was making. Both feminine and masculine = more tolerant.

Rough Sleeper · 04-08-2014 03:51PM

Clankatron wrote: »

And these are the non hipsters?

Yes? Go to the smoking area in The Workman's, Pygmalion, The Grand Social or any other of the so-called hipster spots and it'll be rollies, fags or spliffs all the way. Smoking a pipe is about as hip as dressing up in steampunk clothing.

Also, what is a neckbeard?

It's a neologism for a certain type of socially inept nerd. Stereotypical characteristics would be excessive bodyfat, poor hygiene and grooming, ill-advised wearing of fedoras and other staples of film noir protagonists, an inflated sense of one's own intelligence frequently accompanied with an obsession with Anime, My Little Pony or other niche interests. Though you could have looked that up handy enough.

Deranged96 · 04-08-2014 03:54PM

Banjo String wrote: »

Anyone that questions my masculinity quickly gets a slap around their jowls with my man bag.

Slicemeister wrote: »

What are you? Twelve foot tall!

hahahaha, this made me spit out my tea

This I think is what it entails to be masculine:
1)Have male genitalia
2) Don't be gender confused

Sin é

But to be a good man/woman:
1) stand up for yourself
2) be assertive
3) respect others
4) learn to be empathetic
5) be loyal to those who deserve it
6) be honest, upfront and blunt
7) Avoid people/situations that are underhand

Wibbs · 04-08-2014 03:57PM

FTA69 wrote: »

Women consist of around 15% of TDs in Ireland. Personally I don't think it a point of no consequence that women are chronically under-represented at a political level. The question needs to be asked as to why women 1) aren't as frequent participants in political parties to begin with and 2) aren't putting themselves forward when they do attain position within those parties. There's a large amount of societal factors which cause that that need to be addressed there. Similarly there's a raft of more subtle barriers that women face in society too.

Or quite simply most women don't want to enter politics at the top positions in politics. After all most men don't. It's quite the rarified career choice. In Ireland it seems to be ex teachers and accountants who are nearly all shortarses. No really, the Dail is like a mini people convention. Mad Ted. I'd say Napoleon complex only Boney at 5'7" would tower over most of the Dail front benches. Quotas ain't gonna solve this. It'll just plug into the idea that women need help the poor dears and that's BS.

How many women murder their partners in a violent rage compared to the other way around? In the UK an average of two women a week are murdered by their partner or former partner. Similarly women are much more likely to be the victim of multiple incidents of domestic abuse. How many men are raped or seriously sexually assaulted by women every year?

Women can't rape men under law for a start. Plus overall men are more likely to be both assaulted and murdered than women. Around a ratio of 8 to 2.

I'm not denying that domestic violence is the preserve of men alone Wibbs, but you'd be a fool to insinuate that violence against men occurs to the same degree of severity and frequency as it does women.

Yet you're claims don't gel with stats. The idea that women are always the more deserving of victimhood and men can rarely if ever be victims runs deep. The plain fact is violence, extreme violence and murder is more likely to happen to you if you're male.

Even then, the likes of Women's Aid etc usually have no problem stating that domestic abuse can effect men as well. I've never met a feminist who denies its existence or anything.

Aye but as I asked, how many men's shelters exist in the western world? How many are here in Ireland? Last time I looked there were none. I'll bet the farm that if you say the words "domestic violence" to the majority of people the image they conjure up is man as abuser and woman as victim, whereas in reality it's not far off equal and that's physical abuse. Mental and emotional abuse is another area entirely. Never mind that it while it is never easy for anyone, it is significantly easier for a woman to come forward about being the victim of domestic abuse. She'll have more support, both societal and practical. Men will usually get neither. It is said that much domestic abuse is hidden, well I would imagine it's a lot more hidden if the victim is male.

Which actually plugs into the whole "real man" shíte. A perfect example where it holds men back.

FTA I'm merely pointing out that victimhood is no respecter of gender and how we view same is pretty flawed. Worse it has a tendency to paint women as perpetual victims that need protecting from men, the perpetual aggressors. It does none of us, male or female any good and it'll do no good in trying to find solutions. To find a solution you first have to start asking the right questions.

(This has gone wildly off topic. I just wanted a thread where we could rant at men who drink white wine in the pub and wear skinny jeans.)

Aye, white wine is the work of the very devil. Vile bloodless piss IMH. Like a bad cider that didn't quite make it. You can be sure Judas brought chardonnay to the last supper. Maybe it's a palate thing? Even the smell of white wine makes me want to upchuck, whereas red is like mothers milk. Skinny jeans? Grand if you're built like a pipecleaner, I wear them myself on occasion cos I am, if you're a tubby bugger no. Just no.

On the other hand, there are plenty of people who aspire to "manliness" yet are completely maladjusted to modern society. Neckbeards would be the most extreme example . They lack sociability and adaptability, but instead of viewing it as some intrinsic flaw that that they should work to fix, they blame the rest of the world and the supposed feminisation of society. They dress in fedoras and trenchcoats - sartorial choices associated with manly men of times gone by - smoke pipes and drink whiskey, all because of some misplaced view thaty the whole world is out of joint and they're the few real men left holding the fort. The funny thing is that if they were born in the 50s they wouldn't have been merely subjected to mild derision, they'd have been beaten all over the shop by a belt buckle.

+1000. I know the exact type you describe. Hipster autistics I call them, though that's an insult to actual hipsters and autistics.

Hotfail.com · 04-08-2014 03:57PM

Rough Sleeper wrote: »

It's a neologism for a certain type of socially inept nerd. Stereotypical characteristics would be excessive bodyfat, poor hygiene and grooming, ill-advised wearing of fedoras and other staples of film noir protagonists, an inflated sense of one's own intelligence frequently accompanied with an obsession with Anime, My Little Pony or other niche interests. Though you could have looked that up handy enough.

I seriously don't think they exist.

RayM · 04-08-2014 04:01PM

Wibbs wrote: »

MP's are voted in by the populace. Women get voted in. Bringing quotas into democracy defeats the purpose of it.

Yes, as far as the Irish electorate is concerned, being a woman is no impediment to getting voted in. As long as they'll sort out the street lighting at the end of the road, and get those potholes filled in, the vast majority of us don't care about the gender of a candidate. For a whole load of (mainly cultural, historical and habitual) reasons, the political parties don't put enough women forward for election. Quotas will put a bit of pressure on them to change the way they operate, from the grassroots upwards. It won't diminish our choice - if anything, it'll give the parties an excuse to get rid of some deadwood.

Another problem with having a disproportionately low number of female TDs is that governments are still expected to appoint women to the cabinet, despite having a very small pool to choose from. And that's largely why we ended up with the likes of Mary Hannafin and Mary O'Rourke (both of whom, unsurprisingly, oppose quotas). It's quite possible that gender quotas will result in government composition being a bit more of a meritocracy - as opposed to a 'Marytocracy'. :pac:

Wibbs · 04-08-2014 04:05PM

SilverScreen wrote: »

That wasn't the point I was making. Both feminine and masculine = more tolerant.

To be fair when you say "
As regards men becoming more feminine I think this is more to do with society becoming more tolerant" you can see my confusion.

Hotfail.com wrote: »

I seriously don't think they exist.

Yep they do alright. Not such a large number of them mind you, but they are "out there". A subset of the men who never really integrate into an adult way of behaving in society. I don't mean you have to start acting like an old fart at 21 or any of that shíte, but it helps if you at least understand how society and social occasions work. I noted in my youth *ahem* that the type grew out of it. It was more a teenaged adolescent thing where you try on different hats, different identities to see what fits you best(which is cool), nowadays I see more of the type extending that adolescence into their 20's and beyond.

Manliness/Masculinity

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