Manliness/Masculinity

FTA69

Do people still think there's a place in society for the concept of masculinity? I was recently admonished by a colleague for stating my belief in the idea of a man "being a man", it was suggested that it's an outmoded way of thinking and categorises people into needless pigeon-holes. It was also put to me that placing an emphasis on masculinity also regulates women to an inferior position. Personally, I think that line of thought is a screaming pile of b*llocks however.

I was raised by my grandparents for a large period of my life and my grandfather is an old school, hard as f*cking nails rural farmer. I look back with fondness the values he inculcated in me. Most of these were concerned with not being a waste of space, standing up for yourself, not being a scrounger and generally not being a limp-wristed fashionista.

Is there still a role in society for "being a man" or is it all gradually going out the window?

The Moldy Gowl

I throw you out the window if you question my masculinity again

Fr_Dougal

There's a difference between being a 'man' and being a 'caveman', but some people confuse the two.

Banjo String

Anyone that questions my masculinity quickly gets a slap around their jowls with my man bag.

Friend Computer

I was going to say there is, as long as it's not predicated upon saying all other expressions are inherently worth less or are "wrong" but... well, you've already done that. So, is there a place for your particular brand of masculinity? I would say not any more.

Don't get me wrong, you can say what you like but just don't expect everyone to be receptive to it.

Slicemeister

Banjo String wrote: »

Anyone that questions my masculinity quickly gets a slap around their jowls with my man bag.

What are you? Twelve foot tall!

Wibbs

I reckon that's being hard on "cavemen". Generally speaking tribal types tend not to be stereotypically "macho" in their outlook. Macho tends to get you killed in the wild. Machismo as a self image often requires civilisation around you.

tritium

Yes but you'll fall foul of two opposing fcukwit camps. The real men are hard bastards camp and the men are evil, mysoginy is rife camp. If you don't want to sit in either camp like 90% of folk then who cares what they think

Apart from that I'm with the zohan on the definition

Pawn

FTA69 wrote: »

Is there still a role in society for "being a man" or is it all gradually going out the window?

I know a lot of women who like masculine types and don't pay any attention to the "romantic boys in skinny jeans" kinda type. So yes, there definitely is. Not everyone is 19 and in college...

It wasn't me!

You can't please most of the people the vast majority of the time. Much easier to be the man you want to be and be proud of yourself. When you like the person you are, whether other people do pales into insignificance.

Czarcasm

FTA69 wrote: »

Do people still think there's a place in society for the concept of masculinity? I was recently admonished by a colleague for stating my belief in the idea of a man "being a man", it was suggested that it's an outmoded way of thinking and categorises people into needless pigeon-holes. It was also put to me that placing an emphasis on masculinity also regulates women to an inferior position. Personally, I think that line of thought is a screaming pile of b*llocks however.

I was raised by my grandparents for a large period of my life and my grandfather is an old school, hard as f*cking nails rural farmer. I look back with fondness the values he inculcated in me. Most of these were concerned with not being a waste of space, standing up for yourself, not being a scrounger and generally not being a limp-wristed fashionista.

Is there still a role in society for "being a man" or is it all gradually going out the window?

I like your grandad FTA, sounds a lot like my wife's grandad (my own were all dead before I knew them) and my old man

Yes of course there's always going to be a role for men being men in society. That's what we are isn't it? "Puts women in an inferior position" is indeed a load of bollocks. If anything, I have a great amount of respect for women. I find it very hard to have respect for men that act like women though, and I don't mean drag queens, I mean men who are "in touch with their feminine side".

As far as the caveman comparison goes, no, that's just a thug, there is a difference.

Zab

FTA69 wrote: »

Most of these were concerned with not being a waste of space, standing up for yourself, not being a scrounge and generally not being a limp-wristed fashionista.

Which of these values do you think that women should not hold, and why?

I kind of wanted to take out the last one because it's pejorative, so you're going to have to define it

Tail Docker

I shave with a knife, just to keep it real.*



*may not be true.

FTA69

Zab wrote: »

Which of these values do you think that women should not hold, and why?

That's the thing like, I don't expect women to conform to the opposite of what I outlined above; they're generally just concepts of how any human being should be really.

I suppose I'd agree with a lot of what Czarcasm said above, I just find the whole metrosexual/"in touch with feminist side" stuff be a bit cringy and I have a lot of difficulty really respecting men who engage in all of that jazz. There seems to be an increasing pampered and softening of men in society I just find a bit bizarre; whether that's down to my upbringing or because I'm an intolerant bastard I don't know.

Sky King

it was suggested that it's an outmoded way of thinking and categorises people into needless pigeon-holes

Yeah, lets not make up silly contrived pointless labels for ourselves like Men and Women.

shruikan2553

There are two types of people, those with beards and women

Duck's hoop

There's a whole generation of lumberjacks in Dublin I notice. Possibly other towns as well.

Full on luxuriant beard, check shirt and eh, jeans they seem to have painted on.

I would also be very surprised to learn the majority of these guys could even change a tyre. Or any basic 'man skill' for that matter.

So, it's ok to look manly. Über masculine in many cases. As long as you don't mean it and study interior design.

somefeen

Stop thinking about how much of a man you are.

Just be a decent person.This ****e lately pisses me off "how to be a man", how to be manly". Seems like all of society is suffering some kind of insecurity.

takamichinoku

Whatever makes you happy, like. I honestly have never gave much of a **** what it means to be a man or a woman and find the whole thing pretty annoying if someone is acting like "well, I've these rules to follow". The kind of guy who feels he has to be 100% at all times "a man" is probably pretty tiring/boring.

Regarding "Most of these were concerned with not being a waste of space, standing up for yourself, not being a scrounger and generally not being a limp-wristed fashionista." Being from a farming background myself, a big issue with a lot of guys who are fixated on those kinds of values is that they're just machines, working like hell until they can't work no more, then trying to work some more and properly ****ing themselves up. They're alright values but it's perhaps a bit outdated, probably a bad idea to adhere to any set of rules like that too abidingly, you don't have to carry the whole world on your shoulders, enjoy things a bit, yeah?

Potatoeman

FTA69 wrote: »

Do people still think there's a place in society for the concept of masculinity? I was recently admonished by a colleague for stating my belief in the idea of a man "being a man", it was suggested that it's an outmoded way of thinking and categorises people into needless pigeon-holes. It was also put to me that placing an emphasis on masculinity also regulates women to an inferior position. Personally, I think that line of thought is a screaming pile of b*llocks however.

I was raised by my grandparents for a large period of my life and my grandfather is an old school, hard as f*cking nails rural farmer. I look back with fondness the values he inculcated in me. Most of these were concerned with not being a waste of space, standing up for yourself, not being a scrounger and generally not being a limp-wristed fashionista.

Is there still a role in society for "being a man" or is it all gradually going out the window?

By that logic does a woman being feminine put her in an inferior position?

People that say things like your friend above are usually just as close minded as those they criticise. Its like people that use the term "check your privilage" usually dont do anything to tackle the problems they perceive or in many cases have anything more than a basic knowledge of these problems.

Annasopra

FTA/Czarc - out of interest why do you feel so strongly against Men who might not display stereotypical masculine or macho traits?

Links234

It really says a lot about the lack of security some guys have in their masculinity if they're so quick to admonish other men for being limp-wristed, in touch with their feelings, being a hipster/metrosexual or whatever the latest buzzword to put someone else down so you can feel better about yourselves is these days, or god forbid someone who lives in a city and doesn't need a car because they use public transport and therefor have no call to ever change a tire. And honestly, changing a tire isn't a "man skill", it's just a skill that someone may or may not need. My girlfriend could change a tire, but she's from the country, pretty much everyone in her family can do that as far as I know, and that's because of nessecity. What were so-called "man skills" before cars were invented? Would anyone here know a skill like shoeing a horse, or something else that's no longer relevent to most of our lives?

And whatever happened to just being yourself?

SilverScreen

Ideally there should be room for both men who show masculine traits, men who show feminine traits and everyone in between. Unfortunately there's still plenty of lugheads out there who think otherwise and are hiding some serious insecurities.

As regards men becoming more feminine I think this is more to do with society becoming more tolerant, which is a great thing. People can be themselves much more these days and not worry about having to fit the tired old image of what a real man should be.

Czarcasm

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

FTA/Czarc - out of interest why do you feel so strongly against Men who might not display stereotypical masculine or macho traits?

Because men who think that women cry at the drop of a hat really don't know all that much about women.

Most women know how to dress with style to suit their figure. A man squeezing his testicles into trousers that are a couple of sizes too small for him is never going to be a good look. Same goes for these "skinny suits", they make men look particularly waif-like, also not a good look.

It's not that I feel particularly strongly against it, I just find it very hard to respect men who behave like they are having an identity crisis of some sort.

DeadHand

On a more practical level, I'd argue that a lack of positive, masculine role models in primary and, to a lesser extent, secondary level education as well as in many homes has contributed massively to the population of uncontrolable, feral young males we have today.

Much as the concept has be demonised in an increasingly feminised West there always has and will be a place for masculinity in society simply because it is in our nature and will always find ways to express itself. The more it is suppressed and denied instead of being celebrated and refined the more negative the forms this inevitable expression will take.

Links234

You know Czarcasm, it's not the guys in the skinny jeans who come off like they're having an identity crises of some sort

SilverScreen

Czarcasm wrote: »

Because men who think that women cry at the drop of a hat really don't know all that much about women.

Most women know how to dress with style to suit their figure. A man squeezing his testicles into trousers that are a couple of sizes too small for him is never going to be a good look. Same goes for these "skinny suits", they make men look particularly waif-like, also not a good look.

It's not that I feel particularly strongly against it, I just find it very hard to respect men who behave like they are having an identity crisis of some sort.

Doesn't seem like they're having an identity crisis, it just seems like they're just being who they want to be.

An example of an identity crisis would have been when I was about 14 and wearing tracksuit bottoms and football jerseys because most of my friends did. I never felt like it was who I was.

Wibbs

FTA69 wrote: »

I suppose I'd agree with a lot of what Czarcasm said above, I just find the whole metrosexual/"in touch with feminist side" stuff be a bit cringy and I have a lot of difficulty really respecting men who engage in all of that jazz. There seems to be an increasing pampered and softening of men in society I just find a bit bizarre.

Ditto, but I'd say that's down to my upbringing. My oulfella was a generation older than my peers fathers(born just before the civil war), ex military and all that and a few male rellies were the same(and this was back in the 70's, so defo a different generation to most reading). Funny enough and considering their generation he and they weren't homophobic. More an attitude of "none of my business". They tended to see men(or women for that matter) as useful, independent, strong or not. I'd be similar. A gay chap I know and who I'd admire "As a Man(tm)" can be as camp as a row of tents, but he's very strong, resourceful and doesn't get wrapped up in his own sense of self importance. I'd apply the same cringe factor with overly girly women TBH. The overly preened and pampered girl women put me right off, the facebook selfie generation type who tweet pics of food for some odd reason. Basically limp wristed narcissists of either gender irritate me no effin end.

As for insecurity in men? I would say IMHO and looking around me that there is more of it about these days. Seems like a fair few men feel they've lost their way. I reckon that's why you see so much manosphere stuff online. It's a reaction, particularly in the US of A, to the background noise of boys being often medicalised for acting like boys all the way to the provably BS moral panic notion of "rape culture and they're to blame/responsible" guff that's about.

Now this is just my humble here, but I think young men can require more guidance through the waters of adolescence than women usually do. Pretty much every society since the dawn of humanity has had a apprenticeship setup going on during that period of growth. Where boys get a feel of their place in society from men who aren't their fathers. That's largely missing these days from many men's lives. Where it's absent men tend to look to more dominant slightly older peers who themselves are a adrift and that's where you get gang culture and such. Or they withdraw completely(and the interwebs is an enabler here).

FTA69

DeadHand wrote: »

On a more practical level, I'd argue that a lack of positive, masculine role models in primary and, to a lesser extent, secondary level education as well as in many homes has contributed massively to the population of uncontrolable, feral young males we have today.

I agree with that 100%. I've been involved in boxing for years and have seen how it has impacted positively on young men who often have no other structure in their lives. It provides an important framework and mentoring process that many young men would be lost without. While I didn't have a father growing up, I think I'd have had a better time making sense of the world if I had that presence in my life.

Potatoeman

DeadHand wrote: »

On a more practical level, I'd argue that a lack of positive, masculine role models in primary and, to a lesser extent, secondary level education as well as in many homes has contributed massively to the population of uncontrolable, feral young males we have today.

Much as the concept has be demonised in an increasingly feminised West there always has and will be a place for masculinity in society simply because it is in our nature and will always find ways to express itself. The more it is suppressed and denied instead of being celebrated and refined the more negative the forms this inevitable expression will take.

There was a thread on another site where a grandmother was upset that her grandson came home with an assignment to write about his father. He was from a one parent family and she thought it should have been worded without the use of the word father. Many people seemed to agreed with her. Its this kind of thing that happens all to often. The removal of the word father undermines the role of men for the benefit of a minorities feelings. When they will have to deal with their circumstances sooner or later.

Duck's hoop

Links234 wrote: »

And whatever happened to just being yourself?

Well that would be the greatest 'man skill' of all. Being original. Individual.

I highly doubt the guys with the immaculate beards, quaffing IPA, with their fixie parked nearby, their super skinny jeans rolled above their ankles, are being themselves.

Not all of them anyway. They've just picked a look, and said that'll do.

Btw, I'm not criticising all these guys. Have at it I say. But if you're going to dress like a nails backwoods man who picks his teeth with a knife, but in fact spend hours in front of a mirror every day, then I'm going to pass judgement.

I really don't see what this has to do with MY masculinity either? I've heard women say similar things quite recently.

But if it makes you feel better to attempt to sow those seeds then knock yerself out.

Czarcasm

Links234 wrote: »

It really says a lot about the lack of security some guys have in their masculinity if they're so quick to admonish other men for being limp-wristed, in touch with their feelings, being a hipster/metrosexual or whatever the latest buzzword to put someone else down so you can feel better about yourselves is these days,

It's not about putting other men down at all Links. In fact, more times I've found that the opposite is quite true - Men who behave like they just walked off a Milan catwalk sneering at other men because they dress in a proper fitting suit, or they wear a jeans and tee shirt, they don't particularly pay much attention to the latest "on-trend" fashion for men, and because of this they are somehow "reserved, old-fashioned", etc. I used work in an environment where I would go to work clean in the morning, and come home filthy at night. It wasn't a place for a fashion parade and I never felt the need to ask my work colleagues "Who are you wearing?". Nowadays I wear a shirt and tie to work, and when asked "Who are you wearing?", you wanna see the "disgusted" face drop when I say "Penneys" :pac:

or god forbid someone who lives in a city and doesn't need a car because they use public transport and therefor have no call to ever change a tire. And honestly, changing a tire isn't a "man skill", it's just a skill that someone may or may not need. My girlfriend could change a tire, but she's from the country, pretty much everyone in her family can do that as far as I know, and that's because of nessecity. What were so-called "man skills" before cars were invented? Would anyone here know a skill like shoeing a horse, or something else that's no longer relevent to most of our lives?

You mean like sewing, knitting, crochet? Yes, I know how to do those, I can shoe a horse (I don't even like horses, magnificent beasts, but when one dances on your head as a child, I know all horses aren't like that, but I'd rather not take any chances), I can also do women's make-up and hair, but these are not things I feel everyone needs to know, whereas some men on the other hand they feel a need to let you know that your skin looks dry, that you should try such and such a "product" in your hair, that their facial bum fluff qualifies as a beard.

I'm often more delighted to be out doing a days manual labour than I am stuck in the office, and any opportunity I get to get my hands dirty, I'm there! That's why I like going to Men's sheds, because this time last year I had no idea how to build a boat. I come from an engineering background (my old man was a fitter/turner) and I figured my metalwork skills would be easily transferable. How wrong was I? It's a totally different kind of craftsmanship, and city slickers really only ever see the finished "product", to use their word. They never see the weeks of manual work that goes into creating a real work of art. They think that art begins and ends with music and painting. I know plenty about music and art too, and listening to FLAC quality audio on beats headphones really is missing the point.

And whatever happened to just being yourself?

Nothing ever happened to just being yourself. By all means be yourself. I'm being myself too when I say I have no time for a man acting like a pretentious twat. That's not being himself, that's being what he thinks his peers will approve of. That's being someone who simply craves attention and validation. I simply can't be doing with that nonsense as I have no time for it.

catallus

FWIW, I think skinny jeans are uncomfortable abominations.

Mardy Bum

Being a man means being responsible. Being a woman means being responsible. Simple as that really and no need to get bogged down in gender stereotypes.

Wishiwasa Littlebitaller

Wibbs wrote: »

As for insecurity in men? I would say IMHO and looking around me that there is more of it about these days. Seems like a fair few men feel they've lost their way. I reckon that's why you see so much manosphere stuff online. It's a reaction, particularly in the US of A, to the background noise of boys being often medicalised for acting like boys all the way to the provably BS moral panic notion of "rape culture" and they're to blame/responsible" guff that's about.

Absolutely. Astonishes me that certain people seem blind to it.

Masculinity has nothing to do with the ability to change tires or shoe horses. I mentioned yesterday on a thread how when boys are around 13, and they start noticing how girls are behaving much differently, they get told that girls mature faster, thereby implying that boys behavior at that age is immature but the truth is, it is not immature at all. Send ten couples off on holiday together who are all in their 40s and you will pretty much seem the same traits in the majority of the men: have these men still not 'matured'? Men are portrayed as fools, not to be taken seriously on our TVs and violence towards men is considered punchline fodder.

As for the 'rape culture' bs - it's everywhere. It's pervasive and I feel the idea of it has deliberately and sinisterly being fed to young girls in colleges over the past couple of decades which quite obvious intention. The more male sexuality is shamed, the better in certain quarters. Yet female sexuality is celebrated even when it is aggressive and exploitative.. but, I feel all this is men's fault. We have let a feminist agenda fuel so much of society's constructs out of male guilt and never really knew how to stop it. Most men around today, under the age of 40 at least, have never had the respect of women and so why would they demand it, let alone feel worthy of it.

Here's a small chunk of an excellent article I recently read:

Masculinity - A Threatened Concept

This is a dilemma faced by men within our society today; and in particular, young men. If you were born pre circa 1969, the world and men’s role within it, was a different place. Being born after that date means that as a male, as you have learned one thing, the sociological goalposts have been constantly shifting, requiring continuous adaptation of behaviour and expectation. The train thundering unhindered down the line, carrying the Women’s Equality standard is unstoppable and sometimes out-of-control. As a result it is little wonder that today’s male offspring face a life of oppression, career and life opportunities withdrawn due to their sex not their abilities, and increasing rates of depression and suicide and a host of associated maladies, including alcoholism, crime, violence, younger mortality, drug abuse and poor or absent fathering of offspring. This is not an exhaustive list.

Feminism in its extreme, has damaged men and masculinity, ironically often to its’ own detriment. Andrea Dworkin, the American feminist, castigated masculinity as an ‘evil’ in her speech "The Future of Feminism," (1995). In her conclusion she called on women to ‘sabotage men’, to ‘damage them’ and to ‘fight everything masculine’ – ironic that such activities should require in women the very traits she so despised. Such extreme feminist views (as do all extremist views), broadly damage the very cause they seek to promote – yet still achieve a serious level of collateral damage and disruption in the process.

Are the men of today so oppressed by the insidious feminist ideologies bled into their subconscious through a constant stream of legislative, media and social agendas, that they know no difference, other than that something isn’t quite right? The men of today have been let down by men (and women) of previous generations who have failed to ensure that a fair society is fair and that equality should mean exactly that and no more.

hatrickpatrick

Nobody should be forced into any personality, but to attack someone who happens to identify with a stereotype is ridiculous.

EG There's no reason guys should have to feel like they need to be massive (in terms of strength / muscles) to be attractive, but those who enjoy bodybuilding and identify with it as part of their masculinity shouldn't be shamed or attacked for it.

Same goes for the ongoing attempts to purge all feminine gender roles by attacking women who choose to conform to them. That's not how you win people over to an argument, that's how you piss people off and alienate them.

Wibbs

What I find interesting when such a subject crops up is the irony of "liberal" types who are quick to point out and rail against "shaming" when it suits often use it themselves when it suits their point of view.

EG

Links234 wrote: »

It really says a lot about the lack of security some guys have in their masculinity

SilverScreen wrote: »

Unfortunately there's still plenty of lugheads out there who think otherwise and are hiding some serious insecurities.

Links234 wrote: »

You know Czarcasm, it's not the guys in the skinny jeans who come off like they're having an identity crises of some sort

No doubt more such stuff will be along shortly.

And whatever happened to just being yourself?

Ah the catchall and ultimately weak response and solution to the ills of the modern world.

SilverScreen wrote:

As regards men becoming more feminine I think this is more to do with society becoming more tolerant

IE feminine = more tolerant/masculine = intolerant. Which is daft.

Would anyone here know a skill like shoeing a horse, or something else that's no longer relevent to most of our lives?

I can knap stone tools and make fire. I win the internet.

donfers

I think the reassertion of masculinity thing is down to the daily barrage of "How we can empower women/how women have it bad/how men are to blame" stuff we get in almost every mainstream media outlet out there

Thankfully a lot of us are wise enough to write off most of this stuff as the one-eyed politically fashionable agenda-driven nonsense it is, but I think some guys who have known nothing but this stuff whenever they consume any info about gender politics will obviously react to that by

a) turning into the aforementioned limp-wristed fashionista "so so sorry ladies for the sins of my forefathers - kindly place your high-heels on my back and climb up to your pedestal"

or

b) turning into the monsters they are portrayed to be; heh if I am being accused of being like that, I may as well act the part

or

c) paying it no heed - realising it's just the way the world works and that at the moment women's issues are in fashion and pro-women views have basically carte blanche to say what they like no matter how fascist or sexist or hypocritical it may be - eventually things will turn again, indeed they may already be turning and there will be a reaction to this

the world is spinning and so too are the politics within it - it's all just a PR game but it can have damaging consequences

The truth though is that men and women are different, that masculinity and femininity will always exist, that both are vital and that neither should have to apologise for anything. Yes it's fine to have more feminine men and more masculine women but equally and we should be screaming this from the rooftops - and for whatever reason it seems unfashionable to do so these days - let's applaud the many many masculine men and feminine women out there who are having their innate nature constantly questioned. In many ways though they are above this trivial debate, just living their lives the way they feel comfortable. Manly men and feminine women - hats off to all of them, they rarely get the praise they deserve. In this world where we are supposed to be all things to all men and women I admire those who keep it simple and refuse to be shamed for being who they are - it works both ways!

Wibbs

Wishiwasa Littlebitaller wrote: »

they get told that girls mature faster, thereby implying that boys behavior at that age is immature but the truth is, it is not immature at all.

Well my answer to that nonsense is; you contend that girls mature faster than boys? It doesn't help your case very much as the evolutionary history of our species as been the trend towards taking longer to mature. The longer the childhood the smarter the human. That or Feck off with your homespun nonsense. Depends on the audience

As for the 'rape culture' bs - it's everywhere. It's pervasive and I feel the idea of it has deliberately and sinisterly being fed to young girls in colleges over the past couple of decades which quite obvious intention. The more male sexuality is shamed, the better in certain quarters.

Yep, though to be fair the extreme of that guff is to be found in US colleges. It's becoming more widespread alright and you see people buying the BS elsewhere in the world(recently Journal.ie rehashed the 1 in 4 guff) but that's the origin point. The joke is, while US government official stats show the crime of rape actually dropped in the last decade and official college campus stats show the same, these "women's studies" eejits claim it's an epidemic of one in four, actually now it's one in three. Moral panic based on nada, but made up stats, recieved wisdom and the gender politics these eejits are trying to pimp. Well when extreme socialism was proven to be a dud these yahoos had to look elsewhere. Of course what they don't mention is that in US and Canadian colleges the ratio of men to women is now 1 to 2. Women make up twice the amount of college students and graduates. Big change in less than a generation. Of course to question this particular rape culture stuff is to invite all sorts of flaming. Though it's usually summed up as "you're wrong" or deflected with the emotionals of "one rape is too many", reality not being a strong point with these extremists.

A Primal Nut

To be fair, it's not just masculinity that's being suppressed. Femininity is too. Girls who act overly feminine are seen as letting down the feminist cause. Every so often I read an article in a left-leaning newspapar criticise women for the choices they make, for example the criticism of female Flight Attendants who volunteer to model for the Ryanair swimsuit calendar because they think it's a fun thing to do and because they enjoy it. There's nothing extreme feminists like to do more than judge other women's life choices. In these feminists eyes it's not possible for these women to enjoy it, they must have been exploited. Not most femininsts I know think like this, but more the ones who write for newspapers.

Basically the media is shoving the "gender is a construct" idea down our throats without any evidence; or despite the fact that most ordinary people around the world don't see it that way, and don't want to. Most women I know, shock horror, want a guy with masculine traits. But by listening to the media you would think something else entirely.

Wibbs

A Primal Nut wrote: »

To be fair, it's not just masculinity that's being suppressed. Femininity is too. Girls who act overly feminine are seen as letting down the feminist cause.

True dat. It can go both ways alright.

suicide_circus

Tail Docker wrote: »

I shave with a knife, just to keep it real.*



*may not be true.

That's not a knife, it's a spoon

suicide_circus

Wibbs wrote: »

What I find interesting when such a subject crops up is the irony of "liberal" types who are quick to point out and rail against "shaming" when it suits often use it themselves when it suits their point of view.

EG






No doubt more such stuff will be along shortly.

Ah the catchall and ultimately weak response and solution to the ills of the modern world.

IE feminine = more tolerant/masculine = intolerant. Which is daft.

I can knap stone tools and make fire. I win the internet.

What you're noticing there is the increasing trend of the intolerance of the tolerant. People who are liberal, right on and ttolerant to a tee until you try to espouse something they personally aren't into.

Wishiwasa Littlebitaller

A Primal Nut wrote: »

To be fair, it's not just masculinity that's being suppressed. Femininity is too. Girls who act overly feminine are seen as letting down the feminist cause.

Absolutely.

Rad fems pushed the notion that femininity itself was a social construct and while I think most people would concede that certain aspects of what is considered masculine and feminine, can be, they pushed gender neutrality to an absurd degree that it pretty much all is and are still doing so, to a laughable degree, when allowed:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9HwfVPmFNlg

BikeQueery

Men and women are different and the same, our differences can be generally described as masculine and feminine traits. They're to be respected and appreciated. There's a trend to feminise society and call it gender neutrality that isn't going to help anybody, save possibly as a better starting point to begin appreciating each other for what we are.

I see Scandinavians attempts to make their culture androgynous and I only think it's a good idea in that from it may develop an appreciation for both genders founded on a strange kind of sexless equality. That's something that might grow from that in the future

But it's just unhealthy not to be true to nature.

FTA69

Personally I can see the need for feminism as an active political and social force, both in our own western societies and especially in the Third World. Women are chronically under-represented in a myriad of aspects; from company directors to MPs to certain professions. There is also the large question of violence against women and issues such as rape. The only reason the lot of women has improved in society (along with that of workers, gays etc) is as a result of struggle and agitation. There has been a lot achieved but there is also a lot more to do.

Personally I don't blame feminists for the way some men are beginning to change. In fact, the "beauty culture" that feminists often critique is increasingly starting to affect men to the point the poor bastards are wearing women's jeans and using moisturiser.

Wibbs

FTA69 wrote: »

Personally I can see the need for feminism as an active political and social force, both in our own western societies and especially in the Third World.

Aye, but in the west it pays to actually look behind the headlines.

Women are chronically under-represented in a myriad of aspects; from company directors to MPs to certain professions.

You want to be a company director, then start a company. I know plenty of women that have. MP's are voted in by the populace. Women get voted in. Bringing quotas into democracy defeats the purpose of it. Certain professions? Which ones? More women are entering the professions than ever before. More women than men graduate university than men. For any list you care to draw up I can draw up a similar list that seem to be against men.

There is also the large question of violence against women and issues such as rape.

Sure, but again look behind the headlines. If you were to build the perfect victim of violence who would you imagine? A guy between the ages of 16 and 25 is the statistical winner there. Domestic violence? Nearly half of all domestic violence has the woman as the aggressor, indeed they're up to two to three times more likely to be the aggressor in one sided domestic violence. How many halfway houses for battered husbands have you heard of? Exactly.

The only reason the lot of women has improved in society (along with that of workers, gays etc) is as a result of struggle and agitation.

I agree, however it's better to agitate and struggle without using bullshít as a weapon. BTW this is NOT "oh but look at the poor men" either, sod that crap, just don't piss down my back and tell me it's raining.

suicide_circus

^^^^you're some swine, wibbs

Wishiwasa Littlebitaller

FTA69 wrote: »

There is also the large question of violence against women and issues such as rape.

http://www.theguardian.com/society/2010/sep/05/men-victims-domestic-violence

The only reason the lot of women has improved in society (along with that of workers, gays etc) is as a result of struggle and agitation. There has been a lot achieved but there is also a lot more to do.

At lot more to do? At what price though? And is it necessary?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/7474801.stm

FTA69

You want to be a company director, then start a company. I know plenty of women that have. MP's are voted in by the populace. Women get voted in.

Women consist of around 15% of TDs in Ireland. Personally I don't think it a point of no consequence that women are chronically under-represented at a political level. The question needs to be asked as to why women 1) aren't as frequent participants in political parties to begin with and 2) aren't putting themselves forward when they do attain position within those parties. There's a large amount of societal factors which cause that that need to be addressed there. Similarly there's a raft of more subtle barriers that women face in society too.

Domestic violence? Nearly half of all domestic violence has the woman as the aggressor, indeed they're up to two to three times more likely to be the aggressor in one sided domestic violence. How many halfway houses for battered husbands have you heard of? Exactly.

How many women murder their partners in a violent rage compared to the other way around? In the UK an average of two women a week are murdered by their partner or former partner. Similarly women are much more likely to be the victim of multiple incidents of domestic abuse. How many men are raped or seriously sexually assaulted by women every year?

I'm not denying that domestic violence is the preserve of men alone Wibbs, but you'd be a fool to insinuate that violence against men occurs to the same degree of severity and frequency as it does women. Even then, the likes of Women's Aid etc usually have no problem stating that domestic abuse can effect men as well. I've never met a feminist who denies its existence or anything.

(This has gone wildly off topic. I just wanted a thread where we could rant at men who drink white wine in the pub and wear skinny jeans.)

Hotfail.com

Wishiwasa Littlebitaller wrote: »

At lot more to do? At what price though? And is it necessary?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/7474801.stm

I'm confused.

Equality minister Harriet Harman has set out plans to allow firms to discriminate in favour of female and ethnic minority job candidates.

Followed by:

She said firms should be able to choose a woman over a man of equal ability if they wanted to - or vice versa.

Surely that's already the case?