Manliness/Masculinity

FTA69

Do people still think there's a place in society for the concept of masculinity? I was recently admonished by a colleague for stating my belief in the idea of a man "being a man", it was suggested that it's an outmoded way of thinking and categorises people into needless pigeon-holes. It was also put to me that placing an emphasis on masculinity also regulates women to an inferior position. Personally, I think that line of thought is a screaming pile of b*llocks however.

I was raised by my grandparents for a large period of my life and my grandfather is an old school, hard as f*cking nails rural farmer. I look back with fondness the values he inculcated in me. Most of these were concerned with not being a waste of space, standing up for yourself, not being a scrounger and generally not being a limp-wristed fashionista.

Is there still a role in society for "being a man" or is it all gradually going out the window?

The Moldy Gowl

I throw you out the window if you question my masculinity again

Fr_Dougal

There's a difference between being a 'man' and being a 'caveman', but some people confuse the two.

Banjo String

Anyone that questions my masculinity quickly gets a slap around their jowls with my man bag.

Friend Computer

I was going to say there is, as long as it's not predicated upon saying all other expressions are inherently worth less or are "wrong" but... well, you've already done that. So, is there a place for your particular brand of masculinity? I would say not any more.

Don't get me wrong, you can say what you like but just don't expect everyone to be receptive to it.

Slicemeister

Banjo String wrote: »

Anyone that questions my masculinity quickly gets a slap around their jowls with my man bag.

What are you? Twelve foot tall!

Wibbs

I reckon that's being hard on "cavemen". Generally speaking tribal types tend not to be stereotypically "macho" in their outlook. Macho tends to get you killed in the wild. Machismo as a self image often requires civilisation around you.

tritium

Yes but you'll fall foul of two opposing fcukwit camps. The real men are hard bastards camp and the men are evil, mysoginy is rife camp. If you don't want to sit in either camp like 90% of folk then who cares what they think

Apart from that I'm with the zohan on the definition

Pawn

FTA69 wrote: »

Is there still a role in society for "being a man" or is it all gradually going out the window?

I know a lot of women who like masculine types and don't pay any attention to the "romantic boys in skinny jeans" kinda type. So yes, there definitely is. Not everyone is 19 and in college...

It wasn't me!

You can't please most of the people the vast majority of the time. Much easier to be the man you want to be and be proud of yourself. When you like the person you are, whether other people do pales into insignificance.

Czarcasm

FTA69 wrote: »

Do people still think there's a place in society for the concept of masculinity? I was recently admonished by a colleague for stating my belief in the idea of a man "being a man", it was suggested that it's an outmoded way of thinking and categorises people into needless pigeon-holes. It was also put to me that placing an emphasis on masculinity also regulates women to an inferior position. Personally, I think that line of thought is a screaming pile of b*llocks however.

I was raised by my grandparents for a large period of my life and my grandfather is an old school, hard as f*cking nails rural farmer. I look back with fondness the values he inculcated in me. Most of these were concerned with not being a waste of space, standing up for yourself, not being a scrounger and generally not being a limp-wristed fashionista.

Is there still a role in society for "being a man" or is it all gradually going out the window?

I like your grandad FTA, sounds a lot like my wife's grandad (my own were all dead before I knew them) and my old man

Yes of course there's always going to be a role for men being men in society. That's what we are isn't it? "Puts women in an inferior position" is indeed a load of bollocks. If anything, I have a great amount of respect for women. I find it very hard to have respect for men that act like women though, and I don't mean drag queens, I mean men who are "in touch with their feminine side".

As far as the caveman comparison goes, no, that's just a thug, there is a difference.

Zab

FTA69 wrote: »

Most of these were concerned with not being a waste of space, standing up for yourself, not being a scrounge and generally not being a limp-wristed fashionista.

Which of these values do you think that women should not hold, and why?

I kind of wanted to take out the last one because it's pejorative, so you're going to have to define it

Tail Docker

I shave with a knife, just to keep it real.*



*may not be true.

FTA69

Zab wrote: »

Which of these values do you think that women should not hold, and why?

That's the thing like, I don't expect women to conform to the opposite of what I outlined above; they're generally just concepts of how any human being should be really.

I suppose I'd agree with a lot of what Czarcasm said above, I just find the whole metrosexual/"in touch with feminist side" stuff be a bit cringy and I have a lot of difficulty really respecting men who engage in all of that jazz. There seems to be an increasing pampered and softening of men in society I just find a bit bizarre; whether that's down to my upbringing or because I'm an intolerant bastard I don't know.

Sky King

it was suggested that it's an outmoded way of thinking and categorises people into needless pigeon-holes

Yeah, lets not make up silly contrived pointless labels for ourselves like Men and Women.

shruikan2553

There are two types of people, those with beards and women

Duck's hoop

There's a whole generation of lumberjacks in Dublin I notice. Possibly other towns as well.

Full on luxuriant beard, check shirt and eh, jeans they seem to have painted on.

I would also be very surprised to learn the majority of these guys could even change a tyre. Or any basic 'man skill' for that matter.

So, it's ok to look manly. Über masculine in many cases. As long as you don't mean it and study interior design.

somefeen

Stop thinking about how much of a man you are.

Just be a decent person.This ****e lately pisses me off "how to be a man", how to be manly". Seems like all of society is suffering some kind of insecurity.

takamichinoku

Whatever makes you happy, like. I honestly have never gave much of a **** what it means to be a man or a woman and find the whole thing pretty annoying if someone is acting like "well, I've these rules to follow". The kind of guy who feels he has to be 100% at all times "a man" is probably pretty tiring/boring.

Regarding "Most of these were concerned with not being a waste of space, standing up for yourself, not being a scrounger and generally not being a limp-wristed fashionista." Being from a farming background myself, a big issue with a lot of guys who are fixated on those kinds of values is that they're just machines, working like hell until they can't work no more, then trying to work some more and properly ****ing themselves up. They're alright values but it's perhaps a bit outdated, probably a bad idea to adhere to any set of rules like that too abidingly, you don't have to carry the whole world on your shoulders, enjoy things a bit, yeah?

Potatoeman

FTA69 wrote: »

Do people still think there's a place in society for the concept of masculinity? I was recently admonished by a colleague for stating my belief in the idea of a man "being a man", it was suggested that it's an outmoded way of thinking and categorises people into needless pigeon-holes. It was also put to me that placing an emphasis on masculinity also regulates women to an inferior position. Personally, I think that line of thought is a screaming pile of b*llocks however.

I was raised by my grandparents for a large period of my life and my grandfather is an old school, hard as f*cking nails rural farmer. I look back with fondness the values he inculcated in me. Most of these were concerned with not being a waste of space, standing up for yourself, not being a scrounger and generally not being a limp-wristed fashionista.

Is there still a role in society for "being a man" or is it all gradually going out the window?

By that logic does a woman being feminine put her in an inferior position?

People that say things like your friend above are usually just as close minded as those they criticise. Its like people that use the term "check your privilage" usually dont do anything to tackle the problems they perceive or in many cases have anything more than a basic knowledge of these problems.

Annasopra

FTA/Czarc - out of interest why do you feel so strongly against Men who might not display stereotypical masculine or macho traits?

Links234

It really says a lot about the lack of security some guys have in their masculinity if they're so quick to admonish other men for being limp-wristed, in touch with their feelings, being a hipster/metrosexual or whatever the latest buzzword to put someone else down so you can feel better about yourselves is these days, or god forbid someone who lives in a city and doesn't need a car because they use public transport and therefor have no call to ever change a tire. And honestly, changing a tire isn't a "man skill", it's just a skill that someone may or may not need. My girlfriend could change a tire, but she's from the country, pretty much everyone in her family can do that as far as I know, and that's because of nessecity. What were so-called "man skills" before cars were invented? Would anyone here know a skill like shoeing a horse, or something else that's no longer relevent to most of our lives?

And whatever happened to just being yourself?

SilverScreen

Ideally there should be room for both men who show masculine traits, men who show feminine traits and everyone in between. Unfortunately there's still plenty of lugheads out there who think otherwise and are hiding some serious insecurities.

As regards men becoming more feminine I think this is more to do with society becoming more tolerant, which is a great thing. People can be themselves much more these days and not worry about having to fit the tired old image of what a real man should be.

Czarcasm

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

FTA/Czarc - out of interest why do you feel so strongly against Men who might not display stereotypical masculine or macho traits?

Because men who think that women cry at the drop of a hat really don't know all that much about women.

Most women know how to dress with style to suit their figure. A man squeezing his testicles into trousers that are a couple of sizes too small for him is never going to be a good look. Same goes for these "skinny suits", they make men look particularly waif-like, also not a good look.

It's not that I feel particularly strongly against it, I just find it very hard to respect men who behave like they are having an identity crisis of some sort.

DeadHand

On a more practical level, I'd argue that a lack of positive, masculine role models in primary and, to a lesser extent, secondary level education as well as in many homes has contributed massively to the population of uncontrolable, feral young males we have today.

Much as the concept has be demonised in an increasingly feminised West there always has and will be a place for masculinity in society simply because it is in our nature and will always find ways to express itself. The more it is suppressed and denied instead of being celebrated and refined the more negative the forms this inevitable expression will take.

Links234

You know Czarcasm, it's not the guys in the skinny jeans who come off like they're having an identity crises of some sort

SilverScreen

Czarcasm wrote: »

Because men who think that women cry at the drop of a hat really don't know all that much about women.

Most women know how to dress with style to suit their figure. A man squeezing his testicles into trousers that are a couple of sizes too small for him is never going to be a good look. Same goes for these "skinny suits", they make men look particularly waif-like, also not a good look.

It's not that I feel particularly strongly against it, I just find it very hard to respect men who behave like they are having an identity crisis of some sort.

Doesn't seem like they're having an identity crisis, it just seems like they're just being who they want to be.

An example of an identity crisis would have been when I was about 14 and wearing tracksuit bottoms and football jerseys because most of my friends did. I never felt like it was who I was.

Wibbs

FTA69 wrote: »

I suppose I'd agree with a lot of what Czarcasm said above, I just find the whole metrosexual/"in touch with feminist side" stuff be a bit cringy and I have a lot of difficulty really respecting men who engage in all of that jazz. There seems to be an increasing pampered and softening of men in society I just find a bit bizarre.

Ditto, but I'd say that's down to my upbringing. My oulfella was a generation older than my peers fathers(born just before the civil war), ex military and all that and a few male rellies were the same(and this was back in the 70's, so defo a different generation to most reading). Funny enough and considering their generation he and they weren't homophobic. More an attitude of "none of my business". They tended to see men(or women for that matter) as useful, independent, strong or not. I'd be similar. A gay chap I know and who I'd admire "As a Man(tm)" can be as camp as a row of tents, but he's very strong, resourceful and doesn't get wrapped up in his own sense of self importance. I'd apply the same cringe factor with overly girly women TBH. The overly preened and pampered girl women put me right off, the facebook selfie generation type who tweet pics of food for some odd reason. Basically limp wristed narcissists of either gender irritate me no effin end.

As for insecurity in men? I would say IMHO and looking around me that there is more of it about these days. Seems like a fair few men feel they've lost their way. I reckon that's why you see so much manosphere stuff online. It's a reaction, particularly in the US of A, to the background noise of boys being often medicalised for acting like boys all the way to the provably BS moral panic notion of "rape culture and they're to blame/responsible" guff that's about.

Now this is just my humble here, but I think young men can require more guidance through the waters of adolescence than women usually do. Pretty much every society since the dawn of humanity has had a apprenticeship setup going on during that period of growth. Where boys get a feel of their place in society from men who aren't their fathers. That's largely missing these days from many men's lives. Where it's absent men tend to look to more dominant slightly older peers who themselves are a adrift and that's where you get gang culture and such. Or they withdraw completely(and the interwebs is an enabler here).

FTA69

DeadHand wrote: »

On a more practical level, I'd argue that a lack of positive, masculine role models in primary and, to a lesser extent, secondary level education as well as in many homes has contributed massively to the population of uncontrolable, feral young males we have today.

I agree with that 100%. I've been involved in boxing for years and have seen how it has impacted positively on young men who often have no other structure in their lives. It provides an important framework and mentoring process that many young men would be lost without. While I didn't have a father growing up, I think I'd have had a better time making sense of the world if I had that presence in my life.

Potatoeman

DeadHand wrote: »

On a more practical level, I'd argue that a lack of positive, masculine role models in primary and, to a lesser extent, secondary level education as well as in many homes has contributed massively to the population of uncontrolable, feral young males we have today.

Much as the concept has be demonised in an increasingly feminised West there always has and will be a place for masculinity in society simply because it is in our nature and will always find ways to express itself. The more it is suppressed and denied instead of being celebrated and refined the more negative the forms this inevitable expression will take.

There was a thread on another site where a grandmother was upset that her grandson came home with an assignment to write about his father. He was from a one parent family and she thought it should have been worded without the use of the word father. Many people seemed to agreed with her. Its this kind of thing that happens all to often. The removal of the word father undermines the role of men for the benefit of a minorities feelings. When they will have to deal with their circumstances sooner or later.

Duck's hoop

Links234 wrote: »

And whatever happened to just being yourself?

Well that would be the greatest 'man skill' of all. Being original. Individual.

I highly doubt the guys with the immaculate beards, quaffing IPA, with their fixie parked nearby, their super skinny jeans rolled above their ankles, are being themselves.

Not all of them anyway. They've just picked a look, and said that'll do.

Btw, I'm not criticising all these guys. Have at it I say. But if you're going to dress like a nails backwoods man who picks his teeth with a knife, but in fact spend hours in front of a mirror every day, then I'm going to pass judgement.

I really don't see what this has to do with MY masculinity either? I've heard women say similar things quite recently.

But if it makes you feel better to attempt to sow those seeds then knock yerself out.