Manliness/Masculinity
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It really says a lot about the lack of security some guys have in their masculinity if they're so quick to admonish other men for being limp-wristed, in touch with their feelings, being a hipster/metrosexual or whatever the latest buzzword to put someone else down so you can feel better about yourselves is these days,
It's not about putting other men down at all Links. In fact, more times I've found that the opposite is quite true - Men who behave like they just walked off a Milan catwalk sneering at other men because they dress in a proper fitting suit, or they wear a jeans and tee shirt, they don't particularly pay much attention to the latest "on-trend" fashion for men, and because of this they are somehow "reserved, old-fashioned", etc. I used work in an environment where I would go to work clean in the morning, and come home filthy at night. It wasn't a place for a fashion parade and I never felt the need to ask my work colleagues "Who are you wearing?". Nowadays I wear a shirt and tie to work, and when asked "Who are you wearing?", you wanna see the "disgusted" face drop when I say "Penneys" :pac:or god forbid someone who lives in a city and doesn't need a car because they use public transport and therefor have no call to ever change a tire. And honestly, changing a tire isn't a "man skill", it's just a skill that someone may or may not need. My girlfriend could change a tire, but she's from the country, pretty much everyone in her family can do that as far as I know, and that's because of nessecity. What were so-called "man skills" before cars were invented? Would anyone here know a skill like shoeing a horse, or something else that's no longer relevent to most of our lives?
You mean like sewing, knitting, crochet? Yes, I know how to do those, I can shoe a horse (I don't even like horses, magnificent beasts, but when one dances on your head as a child, I know all horses aren't like that, but I'd rather not take any chances), I can also do women's make-up and hair, but these are not things I feel everyone needs to know, whereas some men on the other hand they feel a need to let you know that your skin looks dry, that you should try such and such a "product" in your hair, that their facial bum fluff qualifies as a beard.
I'm often more delighted to be out doing a days manual labour than I am stuck in the office, and any opportunity I get to get my hands dirty, I'm there! That's why I like going to Men's sheds, because this time last year I had no idea how to build a boat. I come from an engineering background (my old man was a fitter/turner) and I figured my metalwork skills would be easily transferable. How wrong was I? It's a totally different kind of craftsmanship, and city slickers really only ever see the finished "product", to use their word. They never see the weeks of manual work that goes into creating a real work of art. They think that art begins and ends with music and painting. I know plenty about music and art too, and listening to FLAC quality audio on beats headphones really is missing the point.And whatever happened to just being yourself?
Nothing ever happened to just being yourself. By all means be yourself. I'm being myself too when I say I have no time for a man acting like a pretentious twat. That's not being himself, that's being what he thinks his peers will approve of. That's being someone who simply craves attention and validation. I simply can't be doing with that nonsense as I have no time for it.0 -
FWIW, I think skinny jeans are uncomfortable abominations.0
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Being a man means being responsible. Being a woman means being responsible. Simple as that really and no need to get bogged down in gender stereotypes.0
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As for insecurity in men? I would say IMHO and looking around me that there is more of it about these days. Seems like a fair few men feel they've lost their way. I reckon that's why you see so much manosphere stuff online. It's a reaction, particularly in the US of A, to the background noise of boys being often medicalised for acting like boys all the way to the provably BS moral panic notion of "rape culture" and they're to blame/responsible" guff that's about.
Absolutely. Astonishes me that certain people seem blind to it.
Masculinity has nothing to do with the ability to change tires or shoe horses. I mentioned yesterday on a thread how when boys are around 13, and they start noticing how girls are behaving much differently, they get told that girls mature faster, thereby implying that boys behavior at that age is immature but the truth is, it is not immature at all. Send ten couples off on holiday together who are all in their 40s and you will pretty much seem the same traits in the majority of the men: have these men still not 'matured'? Men are portrayed as fools, not to be taken seriously on our TVs and violence towards men is considered punchline fodder.
As for the 'rape culture' bs - it's everywhere. It's pervasive and I feel the idea of it has deliberately and sinisterly being fed to young girls in colleges over the past couple of decades which quite obvious intention. The more male sexuality is shamed, the better in certain quarters. Yet female sexuality is celebrated even when it is aggressive and exploitative.. but, I feel all this is men's fault. We have let a feminist agenda fuel so much of society's constructs out of male guilt and never really knew how to stop it. Most men around today, under the age of 40 at least, have never had the respect of women and so why would they demand it, let alone feel worthy of it.
Here's a small chunk of an excellent article I recently read:Masculinity - A Threatened Concept
This is a dilemma faced by men within our society today; and in particular, young men. If you were born pre circa 1969, the world and men’s role within it, was a different place. Being born after that date means that as a male, as you have learned one thing, the sociological goalposts have been constantly shifting, requiring continuous adaptation of behaviour and expectation. The train thundering unhindered down the line, carrying the Women’s Equality standard is unstoppable and sometimes out-of-control. As a result it is little wonder that today’s male offspring face a life of oppression, career and life opportunities withdrawn due to their sex not their abilities, and increasing rates of depression and suicide and a host of associated maladies, including alcoholism, crime, violence, younger mortality, drug abuse and poor or absent fathering of offspring. This is not an exhaustive list.
Feminism in its extreme, has damaged men and masculinity, ironically often to its’ own detriment. Andrea Dworkin, the American feminist, castigated masculinity as an ‘evil’ in her speech "The Future of Feminism," (1995). In her conclusion she called on women to ‘sabotage men’, to ‘damage them’ and to ‘fight everything masculine’ – ironic that such activities should require in women the very traits she so despised. Such extreme feminist views (as do all extremist views), broadly damage the very cause they seek to promote – yet still achieve a serious level of collateral damage and disruption in the process.
Are the men of today so oppressed by the insidious feminist ideologies bled into their subconscious through a constant stream of legislative, media and social agendas, that they know no difference, other than that something isn’t quite right? The men of today have been let down by men (and women) of previous generations who have failed to ensure that a fair society is fair and that equality should mean exactly that and no more.0 -
Nobody should be forced into any personality, but to attack someone who happens to identify with a stereotype is ridiculous.
EG There's no reason guys should have to feel like they need to be massive (in terms of strength / muscles) to be attractive, but those who enjoy bodybuilding and identify with it as part of their masculinity shouldn't be shamed or attacked for it.
Same goes for the ongoing attempts to purge all feminine gender roles by attacking women who choose to conform to them. That's not how you win people over to an argument, that's how you piss people off and alienate them.0 -
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What I find interesting when such a subject crops up is the irony of "liberal" types who are quick to point out and rail against "shaming" when it suits often use it themselves when it suits their point of view.
EGIt really says a lot about the lack of security some guys have in their masculinitySilverScreen wrote: »Unfortunately there's still plenty of lugheads out there who think otherwise and are hiding some serious insecurities.You know Czarcasm, it's not the guys in the skinny jeans who come off like they're having an identity crises of some sort
No doubt more such stuff will be along shortly.And whatever happened to just being yourself?SilverScreen wrote:As regards men becoming more feminine I think this is more to do with society becoming more tolerantWould anyone here know a skill like shoeing a horse, or something else that's no longer relevent to most of our lives?Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.
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I think the reassertion of masculinity thing is down to the daily barrage of "How we can empower women/how women have it bad/how men are to blame" stuff we get in almost every mainstream media outlet out there
Thankfully a lot of us are wise enough to write off most of this stuff as the one-eyed politically fashionable agenda-driven nonsense it is, but I think some guys who have known nothing but this stuff whenever they consume any info about gender politics will obviously react to that by
a) turning into the aforementioned limp-wristed fashionista "so so sorry ladies for the sins of my forefathers - kindly place your high-heels on my back and climb up to your pedestal"
or
b) turning into the monsters they are portrayed to be; heh if I am being accused of being like that, I may as well act the part
or
c) paying it no heed - realising it's just the way the world works and that at the moment women's issues are in fashion and pro-women views have basically carte blanche to say what they like no matter how fascist or sexist or hypocritical it may be - eventually things will turn again, indeed they may already be turning and there will be a reaction to this
the world is spinning and so too are the politics within it - it's all just a PR game but it can have damaging consequences
The truth though is that men and women are different, that masculinity and femininity will always exist, that both are vital and that neither should have to apologise for anything. Yes it's fine to have more feminine men and more masculine women but equally and we should be screaming this from the rooftops - and for whatever reason it seems unfashionable to do so these days - let's applaud the many many masculine men and feminine women out there who are having their innate nature constantly questioned. In many ways though they are above this trivial debate, just living their lives the way they feel comfortable. Manly men and feminine women - hats off to all of them, they rarely get the praise they deserve. In this world where we are supposed to be all things to all men and women I admire those who keep it simple and refuse to be shamed for being who they are - it works both ways!0 -
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Wishiwasa Littlebitaller wrote: »they get told that girls mature faster, thereby implying that boys behavior at that age is immature but the truth is, it is not immature at all.As for the 'rape culture' bs - it's everywhere. It's pervasive and I feel the idea of it has deliberately and sinisterly being fed to young girls in colleges over the past couple of decades which quite obvious intention. The more male sexuality is shamed, the better in certain quarters.Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.
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To be fair, it's not just masculinity that's being suppressed. Femininity is too. Girls who act overly feminine are seen as letting down the feminist cause. Every so often I read an article in a left-leaning newspapar criticise women for the choices they make, for example the criticism of female Flight Attendants who volunteer to model for the Ryanair swimsuit calendar because they think it's a fun thing to do and because they enjoy it. There's nothing extreme feminists like to do more than judge other women's life choices. In these feminists eyes it's not possible for these women to enjoy it, they must have been exploited. Not most femininsts I know think like this, but more the ones who write for newspapers.
Basically the media is shoving the "gender is a construct" idea down our throats without any evidence; or despite the fact that most ordinary people around the world don't see it that way, and don't want to. Most women I know, shock horror, want a guy with masculine traits. But by listening to the media you would think something else entirely.0 -
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A Primal Nut wrote: »To be fair, it's not just masculinity that's being suppressed. Femininity is too. Girls who act overly feminine are seen as letting down the feminist cause.Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.
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Tail Docker wrote: »I shave with a knife, just to keep it real.*
*may not be true.
That's not a knife, it's a spoon0 -
What I find interesting when such a subject crops up is the irony of "liberal" types who are quick to point out and rail against "shaming" when it suits often use it themselves when it suits their point of view.
EG
No doubt more such stuff will be along shortly.
Ah the catchall and ultimately weak response and solution to the ills of the modern world.
IE feminine = more tolerant/masculine = intolerant. Which is daft.
I can knap stone tools and make fire. I win the internet.0 -
A Primal Nut wrote: »To be fair, it's not just masculinity that's being suppressed. Femininity is too. Girls who act overly feminine are seen as letting down the feminist cause.
Absolutely.
Rad fems pushed the notion that femininity itself was a social construct and while I think most people would concede that certain aspects of what is considered masculine and feminine, can be, they pushed gender neutrality to an absurd degree that it pretty much all is and are still doing so, to a laughable degree, when allowed:
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Men and women are different and the same, our differences can be generally described as masculine and feminine traits. They're to be respected and appreciated. There's a trend to feminise society and call it gender neutrality that isn't going to help anybody, save possibly as a better starting point to begin appreciating each other for what we are.
I see Scandinavians attempts to make their culture androgynous and I only think it's a good idea in that from it may develop an appreciation for both genders founded on a strange kind of sexless equality. That's something that might grow from that in the future
But it's just unhealthy not to be true to nature.0 -
Personally I can see the need for feminism as an active political and social force, both in our own western societies and especially in the Third World. Women are chronically under-represented in a myriad of aspects; from company directors to MPs to certain professions. There is also the large question of violence against women and issues such as rape. The only reason the lot of women has improved in society (along with that of workers, gays etc) is as a result of struggle and agitation. There has been a lot achieved but there is also a lot more to do.
Personally I don't blame feminists for the way some men are beginning to change. In fact, the "beauty culture" that feminists often critique is increasingly starting to affect men to the point the poor bastards are wearing women's jeans and using moisturiser.0 -
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Personally I can see the need for feminism as an active political and social force, both in our own western societies and especially in the Third World.Women are chronically under-represented in a myriad of aspects; from company directors to MPs to certain professions.There is also the large question of violence against women and issues such as rape.The only reason the lot of women has improved in society (along with that of workers, gays etc) is as a result of struggle and agitation.Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.
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^^^^you're some swine, wibbs0
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There is also the large question of violence against women and issues such as rape.
http://www.theguardian.com/society/2010/sep/05/men-victims-domestic-violenceThe only reason the lot of women has improved in society (along with that of workers, gays etc) is as a result of struggle and agitation. There has been a lot achieved but there is also a lot more to do.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/7474801.stm0 -
You want to be a company director, then start a company. I know plenty of women that have. MP's are voted in by the populace. Women get voted in.
Women consist of around 15% of TDs in Ireland. Personally I don't think it a point of no consequence that women are chronically under-represented at a political level. The question needs to be asked as to why women 1) aren't as frequent participants in political parties to begin with and 2) aren't putting themselves forward when they do attain position within those parties. There's a large amount of societal factors which cause that that need to be addressed there. Similarly there's a raft of more subtle barriers that women face in society too.Domestic violence? Nearly half of all domestic violence has the woman as the aggressor, indeed they're up to two to three times more likely to be the aggressor in one sided domestic violence. How many halfway houses for battered husbands have you heard of? Exactly.
How many women murder their partners in a violent rage compared to the other way around? In the UK an average of two women a week are murdered by their partner or former partner. Similarly women are much more likely to be the victim of multiple incidents of domestic abuse. How many men are raped or seriously sexually assaulted by women every year?
I'm not denying that domestic violence is the preserve of men alone Wibbs, but you'd be a fool to insinuate that violence against men occurs to the same degree of severity and frequency as it does women. Even then, the likes of Women's Aid etc usually have no problem stating that domestic abuse can effect men as well. I've never met a feminist who denies its existence or anything.
(This has gone wildly off topic. I just wanted a thread where we could rant at men who drink white wine in the pub and wear skinny jeans.)0 -
Wishiwasa Littlebitaller wrote: »
I'm confused.Equality minister Harriet Harman has set out plans to allow firms to discriminate in favour of female and ethnic minority job candidates.
Followed by:She said firms should be able to choose a woman over a man of equal ability if they wanted to - or vice versa.
Surely that's already the case?0 -
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I was raised by my grandparents for a large period of my life and my grandfather is an old school, hard as f*cking nails rural farmer. I look back with fondness the values he inculcated in me. Most of these were concerned with not being a waste of space, standing up for yourself, not being a scrounger and generally not being a limp-wristed fashionista.
A guy in my class springs immediately to mind. He's the sort who'll sport whatever haircut is mode at the time, and rocks skinny jeans as many days as not. You'd probably have him down as a "limp-wristed fashionista," but he's an intervarsity boxing champion. Conor McGregor would probably be labelled a hipster if he were seen sipping a pint outside Pygmalion in a suit. Similarly, I can think of plenty of people who work in event management in positions that require a high level of sociability, confidence and assertiveness who'd look a bit poncy to people outside that scene.
On the other hand, there are plenty of people who aspire to "manliness" yet are completely maladjusted to modern society. Neckbeards would be the most extreme example . They lack sociability and adaptability, but instead of viewing it as some intrinsic flaw that that they should work to fix, they blame the rest of the world and the supposed feminisation of society. They dress in fedoras and trenchcoats - sartorial choices associated with manly men of times gone by - smoke pipes and drink whiskey, all because of some misplaced view thaty the whole world is out of joint and they're the few real men left holding the fort. The funny thing is that if they were born in the 50s they wouldn't have been merely subjected to mild derision, they'd have been beaten all over the shop by a belt buckle.
I'd totally agree that the notion that men who are physical and interested in manual activities are all knuckle-dragging troglodytes is incredibly ignorant. But no more so than the view that men who dress in skinny jeans are effeminate wastes of space. I kind of get the impression that people are drawing these views from 2008 internet polemics about Williamsburg hipsters than actual, real-life experience.0 -
Because men who think that women cry at the drop of a hat really don't know all that much about women.
Most women know how to dress with style to suit their figure. A man squeezing his testicles into trousers that are a couple of sizes too small for him is never going to be a good look. Same goes for these "skinny suits", they make men look particularly waif-like, also not a good look.
It's not that I feel particularly strongly against it, I just find it very hard to respect men who behave like they are having an identity crisis of some sort.
I really really don't get that at all
Firstly - I asked "why do you feel so strongly against Men who might not display stereotypical masculine or macho traits?" - I dont see what that has to do with women crying
Secondly - I dont get why you assume that all men who might be doing something not stereotypically masculine or macho are going through an identity crisis
Thirdly - So what if they are having an identity crisis? Whats the issue that you cant respect people going through an identity crisis?It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.
Terry Pratchet
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Rough Sleeper wrote: »They dress in fedoras and trenchcoats - sartorial choices associated with manly men of times gone by - smoke pipes and drink whiskey,
And these are the non hipsters?
Also, what is a neckbeard?0 -
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Clankatron wrote: »And these are the non hipsters?Also, what is a neckbeard?0
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Banjo String wrote: »Anyone that questions my masculinity quickly gets a slap around their jowls with my man bag.Slicemeister wrote: »What are you? Twelve foot tall!
hahahaha, this made me spit out my tea
This I think is what it entails to be masculine:
1)Have male genitalia
2) Don't be gender confused
Sin é
But to be a good man/woman:
1) stand up for yourself
2) be assertive
3) respect others
4) learn to be empathetic
5) be loyal to those who deserve it
6) be honest, upfront and blunt
7) Avoid people/situations that are underhand0 -
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Women consist of around 15% of TDs in Ireland. Personally I don't think it a point of no consequence that women are chronically under-represented at a political level. The question needs to be asked as to why women 1) aren't as frequent participants in political parties to begin with and 2) aren't putting themselves forward when they do attain position within those parties. There's a large amount of societal factors which cause that that need to be addressed there. Similarly there's a raft of more subtle barriers that women face in society too.How many women murder their partners in a violent rage compared to the other way around? In the UK an average of two women a week are murdered by their partner or former partner. Similarly women are much more likely to be the victim of multiple incidents of domestic abuse. How many men are raped or seriously sexually assaulted by women every year?I'm not denying that domestic violence is the preserve of men alone Wibbs, but you'd be a fool to insinuate that violence against men occurs to the same degree of severity and frequency as it does women.Even then, the likes of Women's Aid etc usually have no problem stating that domestic abuse can effect men as well. I've never met a feminist who denies its existence or anything.
Which actually plugs into the whole "real man" shíte. A perfect example where it holds men back.
FTA I'm merely pointing out that victimhood is no respecter of gender and how we view same is pretty flawed. Worse it has a tendency to paint women as perpetual victims that need protecting from men, the perpetual aggressors. It does none of us, male or female any good and it'll do no good in trying to find solutions. To find a solution you first have to start asking the right questions.(This has gone wildly off topic. I just wanted a thread where we could rant at men who drink white wine in the pub and wear skinny jeans.)On the other hand, there are plenty of people who aspire to "manliness" yet are completely maladjusted to modern society. Neckbeards would be the most extreme example . They lack sociability and adaptability, but instead of viewing it as some intrinsic flaw that that they should work to fix, they blame the rest of the world and the supposed feminisation of society. They dress in fedoras and trenchcoats - sartorial choices associated with manly men of times gone by - smoke pipes and drink whiskey, all because of some misplaced view thaty the whole world is out of joint and they're the few real men left holding the fort. The funny thing is that if they were born in the 50s they wouldn't have been merely subjected to mild derision, they'd have been beaten all over the shop by a belt buckle.Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.
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Rough Sleeper wrote: »It's a neologism for a certain type of socially inept nerd. Stereotypical characteristics would be excessive bodyfat, poor hygiene and grooming, ill-advised wearing of fedoras and other staples of film noir protagonists, an inflated sense of one's own intelligence frequently accompanied with an obsession with Anime, My Little Pony or other niche interests. Though you could have looked that up handy enough.
I seriously don't think they exist.0 -
MP's are voted in by the populace. Women get voted in. Bringing quotas into democracy defeats the purpose of it.
Yes, as far as the Irish electorate is concerned, being a woman is no impediment to getting voted in. As long as they'll sort out the street lighting at the end of the road, and get those potholes filled in, the vast majority of us don't care about the gender of a candidate. For a whole load of (mainly cultural, historical and habitual) reasons, the political parties don't put enough women forward for election. Quotas will put a bit of pressure on them to change the way they operate, from the grassroots upwards. It won't diminish our choice - if anything, it'll give the parties an excuse to get rid of some deadwood.
Another problem with having a disproportionately low number of female TDs is that governments are still expected to appoint women to the cabinet, despite having a very small pool to choose from. And that's largely why we ended up with the likes of Mary Hannafin and Mary O'Rourke (both of whom, unsurprisingly, oppose quotas). It's quite possible that gender quotas will result in government composition being a bit more of a meritocracy - as opposed to a 'Marytocracy'. :pac:0 -
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SilverScreen wrote: »That wasn't the point I was making. Both feminine and masculine = more tolerant.
As regards men becoming more feminine I think this is more to do with society becoming more tolerant" you can see my confusion.Hotfail.com wrote: »I seriously don't think they exist.Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.
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