Manliness/Masculinity

Czarcasm

Rough Sleeper wrote: »

You don't "just nit like the look of them," you hate them so much that you disregard a person if they're wearing them. There's a bit of a difference.

I don't hate them. I just don't have any time for men wearing them. There's the difference. If you're wearing skinny jeans, there's a high degree of probability we're not going to get along. It's better for you and it's better for me that we stop now before we go any further.

Just imagine it's a Christian here talking about gay marriage and see how it sounds; how it's their right to view gay relationships as inferior and you're the one with problem for refusing to respect this belief.

I mean no disrespect personally when I say this, but only Zoolander would be so self-absorbed in his fashion that he would compare fashion prejudices first to racism, then to bigotry and homophobia. They're jeans ffs, and given your reaction here, you can see why I would form the opinion that skinny jeans wearers would melt my head with their over-dramatics. We've never even met and already look what you're at? Like I said, better for you and me both if we probably just dismissed each other out of hand. We'd only end up frustrating each other.

You are the aggressor here, you are the one with the prejudiced views, you are the one who is being intolerant. I'm simply calling you out on it. The issue is most certainly yours. If you didn't hold this ridiculous view then I wouldn't have any beef with you.

I think you've got that whole aggressor thing arseways. I never attacked you personally in the first instance, in fact I didn't attack you at all. I merely stated that I have an aversion to men wearing skinny jeans, and I know the issue is mine. At no point whatsoever did I say there was anything wrong with a man who chooses to wear skinny jeans, but because I find them to be indicative of a personality type I don't get on with, I tend to avoid those people. It's not rocket science.

Your beef with me is your own issue and doesn't concern me in the slightest. It's not as if we were ever going to get on anyway.

I'm saying that this particular personality trait of yours is rubbish. Because it patently is. Let's remember that you really, genuinely believe that people are unworthy if they wear certain types of pants.

Unworthy of my time, based on previous evidence. There's no need to be so dramatic trying to make out they are unworthy as human beings. I'm sure they're lovely. I just find that I don't get on with them. It's an indication of their personality type, and saying that shouldn't surprise you given you're actually that fashion conscious and dependant upon other people thinking you're worthy of their company based on the clothing you wear. If these people are truly your friends, they won't care that you want to wear a leather jacket and sunglasses or whatever, and yet as you pointed out earlier, you're glad they would.

There's no difference between me doing it, and your friends doing it.

Potatoeman

RayM wrote: »

Well, that assumes that our current system is a meritocracy - or indeed that, given the natural arbitrariness of the democratic system, it's actually possible to have one. Gender quotas won't result in great men being dropped from the party ticket. More women in politics, from the grassroots up, would undeniably result in female ministers being more likely to be chosen on grounds other than their gender - simply because there would be a larger pool to choose from.

Although having said all that, I think gender quotas should apply to local, rather than general elections. A lack of female Dáil candidates is a symptom of problems further down the political ladder.

You also need to look at why women are not attracted to these positions. Jobs that require priority over personal and family life are not for everyone. Women are more likely to opt for three day weeks if optional. I know where I work almost all three day week workers are women.

The_Captain

Temporal Loop wrote: »

I think women are naturally more inclined to want a cleaner home, therefore they tend to clean the home.more because it benefits them more to do it.

I believe the culture of expecting women to clean more is an effect of women's greater propensity to want to clean their home. I believe you are confusing cause and effect.

I see you have never lived with women

Temporal Loop

takamichinoku wrote: »

So you're saying it's pretty much a genetic predisposition?

Dude, I believe you are confusing cause and effect, that's mental! I at least gave some logic behind my argument.

I'm saying women are naturally more inclined on average to require higher standards of domestic cleanliness. That's why they tend to do it more, that get a higher reward chemically in their brain for having a clean home.

Rough Sleeper

OK, we're bickering now so I'll get to the crux of the issue.

Czarcasm wrote: »

It's an indication of their personality type,

It isn't. This is where you're falling down. Skinny jeans have become so widespread and are worn by such a diverse group of people that you can't form an accurate picture of someone's personality based on a simple item of clothing. At the very most, you might have been able to say that it suggested that someone was in some way interested in alternative culture. With the appropriation of indie fashion by the mainstream, you can't even claim this any more.

Tell you what; go down to the Twisted Pepper on a big night, try to put away your misgivings and get chatting to a few people wearing skinny jeans. If you find that a single one of them is overly dramatic or annoyingly emotional, I'll eat my Levi 511s.

and saying that shouldn't surprise you given you're actually that fashion conscious and dependant upon other people thinking you're worthy of their company based on the clothing you wear. If these people are truly your friends, they won't care that you want to wear a leather jacket and sunglasses or whatever, and yet as you pointed out earlier, you're glad they would.

There's no difference between me doing it, and your friends doing it.

1. The image you've formed of me - based on absolutely nothing - of some preening fashionista is way off the mark. I haven't really changed how I dress or how I wear my hair for the last 7 years so you can hardly call me fashion conscious. Over that space of time low-neck t-shirts, t-shirts with hoods on the front, plaid shirts, Air Max high-tops, Hitler youth haircuts, fade haircuts and full beards (to name but a few trends) have come and gone and I didn't jump on the bandwagon at any point. I found I look that suits me and I've stuck with it. If that makes me some sort of insecure sheep than I just dunno like.

2. Where are you getting the idea that my friends would ostracise me if I dressed in a way that I didn't like? If they thought I was wearing something that looked ridiculous they'd tell me, that's all. Isn't that what real friends would do, give you honest advice, whether it be on appearance, your behaviour, whatever, even if you won't necessarily like it?

So there's the difference between what you're doing and what my friends are doing.

mdolly123

Women are messy too. I hate mess and clean up on account of the fact I hate mess, I do not like cleaning up after men but many are conditioned to think that it is OK to let someone else clean up after them, its not.
Masculinity is overrated, just be yourself and not live up to stereotypes of how you think you should be.

Czarcasm

Rough Sleeper wrote: »

OK, we're bickering now so I'll get to the crux of the issue.

It isn't. This is where you're falling down. Skinny jeans have become so widespread and are worn by such a diverse group of people that you can't form an accurate picture of someone's personality based on a simple item of clothing. At the very most, you might have been able to say that it suggested that someone was in some way interested in alternative culture. With the appropriation of indie fashion by the mainstream, you can't even claim this any more.

I don't need it to be accurate, I just need it to be a good indicator. I could spend years with someone and never get a truly accurate picture of who they are as a person, so discounting skinny jeans wearers as people I want to get to know, limits my defined parameters. I have quite a list of parameters I discriminate against. I do this because I don't want to waste your time or my time getting to know you. I don't particularly care for your "alternative culture and appropriation of indie culture by mainstream fashion" talk. I mean, you seem like a nice guy, but I couldn't be listening to that all day.

1. The image you've formed of me - based on absolutely nothing - of some preening fashionista is way off the mark. I haven't really changed how I dress or how I wear my hair for the last 7 years so you can hardly call me fashion conscious. Over that space of time low-neck t-shirts, t-shirts with hoods on the front, plaid shirts, Air Max high-tops, Hitler youth haircuts, fade haircuts and full beards (to name but a few trends) have come and gone and I didn't jump on the bandwagon at any point. I found I look that suits me and I've stuck with it. If that makes me some sort of insecure sheep than I just dunno like.

I haven't formed any image of you at all, simply because I don't have enough information about you. I mean, like I said, I'm sure you're a nice guy. Perhaps it's because I see us having absolutely nothing in common. I don't do all that high minded nonsense. I mean, I can, I'm certainly well educated and well read enough that if I really wanted to I could tear your opinion apart. But I don't want to do that because I have no interest in trying to be "better than thou" so to speak.

You tried to psychoanalyze me earlier, and you were way off the mark. I don't like people who think they can poke around in my brain. That's not me being insecure either, but rather it's something that very insecure people engage in, in my experience.

2. Where are you getting the idea that my friends would ostracise me if I dressed in a way that I didn't like? If they thought I was wearing something that looked ridiculous they'd tell me, that's all. Isn't that what real friends would do, give you honest advice, whether it be on appearance, your behaviour, whatever, even if you won't necessarily like it?

So there's the difference between what you're doing and what my friends are doing.

How is that any different to me saying that skinny jeans look ridiculous on grown men? They do. That is my opinion. Your friends share your opinion that they do not. If your friends told you that you looked ridiculous, you'd go home and change. I wouldn't. There's the difference, and there's the male insecurity that I'm talking about that you just don't seem to be getting.

I genuinely couldn't be dealing with someone that is that insecure in themselves.

suicide_circus

In my experience, "campness" is more often a consciously adopted affectation rather than an innate personality trait.

Pablodreamsofnew

Masculine- means being a man, or manly. There is nothing wrong with being masculine. Personally I am very much attracted to masculine men. I defo think some men confused masculine with 'do the dishes and cook for me woman, you women, me man' sort of attitude which is a very unattractive.

However, there is also nothing wrong with being the softer type! A lot of guys are more pampered now a days because it's okay for guys to look after themselves and they aren't as ridiculed as years ago.

It's not okay to judge someone for who they are though. Everyone is entitled to be what they want. Like, what you said, your granddad instilled these traits in you and that's nice, that he had such a positive influence on you. However, someone I know dad was the exact same and refused to let him 'read books' or do anything he considered 'sissy' and wanted him to work on the farm and be a man, even though he had no interest.

I think that men should be allowed have the freedom that women have!

Rough Sleeper

Czarcasm wrote: »

How is that any different to me saying that skinny jeans look ridiculous on grown men? They do. That is my opinion. Your friends share your opinion that they do not. If your friends told you that you looked ridiculous, you'd go home and change. I wouldn't. There's the difference, and there's the male insecurity that I'm talking about that you just don't seem to be getting.

I genuinely couldn't be dealing with someone that is that insecure in themselves.

The difference was outlined in the sentence that immediately preceded the bolded. The point was that you can find an item of clothing to be ridiculous without dismissing a person as a result, even if you personally choose not to subscribe to this view. It was very clear and there was no excuse for missing it given that you quoted the entire argument yet completely ignored the part where I pointed out the divergence in opinion. This is the nth time that you've missed a very basic point so you'll forgive me for thinking that your claim of being able to rip my points apart if you cared to do so seems like posturing, well educated though you may be. You cannot rip someone's point apart when you're addressing a point they never made.

There is nothing insecure about assuming that there are aspects of your personality or appearance that could be improved. Recognising this is a positive personality trait rather than a sign of insecurity. You were saying earlier that you admire women who dress well (as you see it) for work. If you gave someone advice on their professional appearance (say if they were looking to impress and work towards a promotion) would you see it it as an indication of insecurity if they weighed up and heeded your recommendations?

takamichinoku

Temporal Loop wrote: »

I'm saying women are naturally more inclined on average to require higher standards of domestic cleanliness. That's why they tend to do it more, that get a higher reward chemically in their brain for having a clean home.

You're welcome to throw some scientific articles and whatnot at me there as proof.

I find the notion that there's any kind of significant difference in terms of the sense of reward which outweighs the effect of society being more judgemental of a woman in a messy house absolutely ludicrous though.

ectoraige

Only on boards is it considered manly to employ words such as "inculcated"...

Czarcasm

Rough Sleeper wrote: »

The difference was outlined in the sentence that immediately preceded the bolded. The point was that you can find an item of clothing to be ridiculous without dismissing a person as a result, even if you personally choose not to subscribe to this view. It was very clear and there was no excuse for missing it given that you quoted the entire argument yet completely ignored the part where I pointed out the divergence in opinion. This is the nth time that you've missed a very basic point so you'll forgive me for thinking that your claim of being able to rip my points apart if you cared to do so seems like posturing, well educated though you may be. You cannot rip someone's point apart when you're addressing a point they never made.

This is the nth time I'm telling you that I can do whatever the hell I like as far as passing judgement on someone wearing skinny jeans goes. You can think of that as ridiculous all you want, but your opinion is unlikely to affect me either way.

There is nothing insecure about assuming that there are aspects of your personality or appearance that could be improved. Recognising this is a positive personality trait rather than a sign of insecurity. You were saying earlier that you admire women who dress well (as you see it) for work. If you gave someone advice on their professional appearance (say if they were looking to impress and work towards a promotion) would you see it it as an indication of insecurity if they weighed up and heeded your recommendations?

Yes I would. My friends also know better than to come to me looking for advice about their appearance.

catallus

You tell 'em, Czarcasm! :pac:

jimgoose

I am the Alpha-Male. I'm tall, well-built, incredibly handsome, witty, travelled, educated, and rich. I drive a car the size of a yacht and I don't give a scuttery fcuk if you think that means I have a small penis. I'm actually hung like a Blue Whale, and you can confirm that with my wife, her sister or either of my two huge-breasted secretaries. I wear Hugo Boss suits - even in bed - and I can have you killed, so don't piss me off. :cool:

Zulu

...yeah it was all good up to the "sister" bit. A little too much like a biblical family.

jimgoose

Zulu wrote: »

...yeah it was all good up to the "sister" bit. A little too much like a biblical family.

Things'll get fairly Old Testament if she find out, right enough. :cool:

catallus

Sisters, eh? Living the dream.....:)

Rough Sleeper

Czarcasm wrote: »

This is the nth time I'm telling you that I can do whatever the hell I like as far as passing judgement on someone wearing skinny jeans goes. You can think of that as ridiculous all you want, but your opinion is unlikely to affect me either way.

Yeah, I've said plenty of times that I accept this even if I disagree with it. I guess we're done with this one.

Yes I would. My friends also know better than to come to me looking for advice about their appearance.

Fair enough. I think that being willing to take advice from people whose opinion I value and that might benefit me - which is very different to moulding an image completely to please everyone around you - is a good personality trait. If you disagree then I guess we're done with this too. Peace.

jimgoose

catallus wrote: »

Sisters, eh? Living the dream.....:)

When the Alpha-Male requires your opinion, he will Revert it out of you. :cool:

ComputerKing

There is still place for masculinity in today's society but just because I dress well and I take care of my body and look good and I hate to have to labels things but am part of the new spornosexual movement doesn't make me anyless of a man that anybody else.

K-9

catallus wrote: »

You tell 'em, Czarcasm! :pac:

Thought he was supposed to leave the thread this morning. Indecisive, very unmanly!

catallus

K-9 wrote: »

Thought he was supposed to leave the thread this morning. Indecisive, very unmanly!

I always knew he was soft in the middle!

jimgoose

ComputerKing wrote: »

There is still place for masculinity in today's society but just because I dress well and I take care of my body and look good and I hate to have to labels things but am part of the new spornosexual movement doesn't make me anyless of a man that anybody else.

The Alpha Male employs a small horde of oiled Asian teenagers to take care of his body. And if you are not attracted to me because of my perfect Spamasexual six-pack, you can be attacted to my enormous bulging wallet and immense perceived power. I don't particularly give a thundery fcuk which-or-whether. :cool:

Triceratops Ballet

I've read back on most of this thread, as its something I was only thinking about recently. What does it mean to be a man?

I think in the last 100 years, womens roles in society have changed so much through feminism, my grandmother for example was born before women had the right to vote. Along side that there hasn't been as much of a change for men. Women have stepped out of the house, out from behind the protection of their fathers/husbands and are out there on their own. Up to this point the role of men I think was very clear, head of the house, decision maker, breadwinner, but now I think a lot of those things are up in the air. For hundreds of years that was the role that a man had to play, and its not as necessary now as it was, so I think men (as a whole not individually) don't know how to be or what society expects of them. I think this is an opportunity to redefine what masculinity is. Feminism told women for years that we can be whatever we want to be, and be whoever we want to be, but society tells men that big boys don't cry.

I think that's the problem with the traditional view of masculinity, in order for it to work in society there has to be an opposite, and I don't think there is to a great extent anymore.

I've always though I'd hate to be a man, sure being a woman can be tough, especially in the professional world, but I wouldn't be a man if you paid me. There are so many expectations of who/ how you are supposed to be.

I think if you were to list out manly traits, that are not gender limiting (ie peeing standing up!) they should equally apply to a well rounded female.

Standman

A relative of mine has recently retired, his wife gives him a list of things to do every day while she's at work (she's a few years from retiring age) and checks up on him afterward to make sure he's done it all. His wife's a neat freak and seems to be have complete control of the house. He used to spend a lot of his free time in the converted attic drawing and designing various things (he's in design by profession), until his wife decided she wanted to use the attic for storage instead. Now he's in the process of ordering a shed for the back garden where he can follow his hobbies in peace, or until his wife decides otherwise presumably.

Not how he expected the beginning of his retirement to pan out I'm sure.

The fact that "Man Caves" are a now thing would suggest that this is not an isolated occurrence. We now have a situation where many men are being relegated to a shed/basement/spare room where they can "do as they please" without bothering the woman (i.e. in the rest of the house). I really don't understand how a lot of men seem to see no problem with this.

Seems to be a similar story with a lot of married couples of the older generation that I've experienced. It's as if the husbands feel indebted to the wife for some reason and are extremely eager to please. It would be fine if it was reciprocated, but it's not in my experience, at least to nowhere near the same degree.

My own theory of where this stems from is that the husbands got used to waiting on their wives hand and foot when they were pregnant and continue on with the habit afterwards, while also feeling guilty in some way for their wives having to go through the ordeal of pregnancy while they didn't.

More than once I've seen wives not only taking this treatment for granted but speaking to their husbands with a complete lack of respect that were it to be the other way around, would seriously raise some eyebrows.

Compromise is good and necessary in any relationship, but when you allow all the compromising to be on your side then I think not only have you lost respect for yourself but on some level your OH has too.

When it comes to long term relationships/marriage, I think being a man involves being assertive, respecting not only your OH but also yourself and your wants & desires. This is something that I think many men heading into need to understand more.

lufties

FTA69 wrote: »

Do people still think there's a place in society for the concept of masculinity? I was recently admonished by a colleague for stating my belief in the idea of a man "being a man", it was suggested that it's an outmoded way of thinking and categorises people into needless pigeon-holes. It was also put to me that placing an emphasis on masculinity also regulates women to an inferior position. Personally, I think that line of thought is a screaming pile of b*llocks however.

I was raised by my grandparents for a large period of my life and my grandfather is an old school, hard as f*cking nails rural farmer. I look back with fondness the values he inculcated in me. Most of these were concerned with not being a waste of space, standing up for yourself, not being a scrounger and generally not being a limp-wristed fashionista.

Is there still a role in society for "being a man" or is it all gradually going out the window?

'Man up' said the bullies :pac:

buried

Men are increasingly being bullied by society into dropping not only their masculinity but also any other trait/activity which men traditionally enjoy or gain entertainment from and my theory is that it all stems from the over-hyped sexualisation of everything we see today in the modern media infested world. Sex has become the mainstream 'be all and end all' and many people are pressured into making sure they are seen to have regular access to it which in turn rushes people into relationships just for the sake of being seen by the rest of society to be in one. And in order to stay in this lame pressurised existence people will in turn sacrifice the traits and even the lifestyle they used to enjoy which makes them the person they are/were.

I see it every week with my friends currently in this kind of set up.
Two recent examples - Last week me and my mate were due to embark on a boat trip on one of the Shannon lakes, doing a bit of fishing and setting up camp for one night and then home. Everything was organised for weeks and all set to go and at the last minute my mate cancelled, his wife would not allow him to go, some pathetic excuse was made but I later discovered my friend was too frightened to inform his wife weeks ago that he was going because he knew he wouldn't be be given permission by her anyways. Another married mate of mine was even banned from watching the World Cup Final by his wife, she demanded they watch a DVD instead. A DVD. This is not made up, this is an actual fact. What is more shocking to me, is not even he allowed this kind of twisted bullying ultimatum to be made to him, but the fact that he even admitted it to me that it occurred and he put up with it. I see things like this all the time and have countless other examples with these and other demasculated mates of mine, such as being told what clothes to wear, lads thrown outside into little sheds to sit in the cold dark like a 'bold boys corner' like what is being discussed here, its utterly pathetic.

I'm single myself and enjoy my freedom and my ability to do things like fishing, camping, hunting, trekking, going to the pub to watch a match or enjoy a few quiet pints. And I know for a total fact the wives of the vast majority of my mates use these simple, harmless, enjoyable, mostly manly activities to talk trash about me and how "that lad will never get a woman" because of these "childish" (their words) activities I enjoy, by twisting and looking down on me for not being in the prison, regime-like existence they are in! This is the kind of pathetic tactic employed for bullying men into dropping their masculinity or traits they find fun through the bribery of sexual contact. That's a fact.

And maybe due to that twisted logic I will never 'get a woman' , but I sure as $hit wont be bullied like the vast majority of my helpless demasculted infantile mates(and yes lads if ye read this and know who you are that is what ye are) into 'getting one' for the sake of it either.

Triceratops Ballet

buried wrote: »

I see it every week with my friends currently in this kind of set up.
Two recent examples - Last week me and my mate were due to embark on a boat trip on one of the Shannon lakes, doing a bit of fishing and setting up camp for one night and then home. Everything was organised for weeks and all set to go and at the last minute my mate cancelled, his wife would not allow him to go, some pathetic excuse was made but I later discovered my friend was too frightened to inform his wife weeks ago that he was going because he knew he wouldn't be be given permission by her anyways. Another married mate of mine was even banned from watching the World Cup Final by his wife, she demanded they watch a DVD instead. A DVD. This is not made up, this is an actual fact. What is more shocking to me, is not even he allowed this kind of twisted bullying ultimatum to be made to him, but the fact that he even admitted it to me that it occurred and he put up with it. I see things like this all the time and have countless other examples with these and other demasculated mates of mine, such as being told what clothes to wear, lads thrown outside into little sheds to sit in the cold dark like a 'bold boys corner' like what is being discussed here, its utterly pathetic.
.

I get that, I think society just wants people to pair off so badly, that it tries to force the idea that you have to compromise on who you are to be in a relationship, because having someone is the be all and end all. I don't think its limited to men, I can give examples of life and soul of the party girls who don't drink because their bf doesn't like it when they're drunk, or who change how they dress, cos he prefers how it looks.

I think that's down to a personality thing though, I would never want a man who would let me tell him what to do, and likewise I would be gone like a shot if the situation was reversed. There are times when compromises have to be made because of joint responsibilities but asking permission, no way!

If you're afraid to tell your partner something you have planned, there's a bigger problem in the relationship imo.

Czarcasm

K-9 wrote: »

Thought he was supposed to leave the thread this morning. Indecisive, very unmanly!

K-9 if this is the comment you're referring to -

Czarcasm wrote: »

I'm walking away from this now as we've reached that level I talked about earlier.

Far from an indication of an indecisive mind, I considered it the more prudent course of action given that you were under the impression I was engaging in some sort of homophobic wind-up and could very easily have found myself infracted or thread banned for the way in which I expressed a difference of opinion and how that was being perceived.

I hadn't thought that such a course of action would be perceived as a reflection of my masculinity or otherwise, nor did I take account of the fact that in your position as a Moderator you could disregard the "attack the post, not the poster" rule to take petty swipes at other posters.