Claim: 'Kyiv is the mother of all Russian Cities'

recedite · 20-07-2014 10:23PM

stevejazzx wrote: »

Act of war, act of terrorism it doesn't matter; it's certainly not reducible to negligence (I know you didn't mean to implicitly state it was 'just negligence but we really have to use more appropriate terminology when describing such barbarism).

Even though all war is barbaric, "acts of war" are usually directed against enemy combatants or military infrastructure, whereas acts of terrorism are usually against civilian non-combatants.
Negligence comes into it when "not enough" effort is made to differentiate between combatants and non-combatants. Even though the loss of all these lives is heinous, it is still only a drop in the ocean compared to the tens of thousands of non-combatants killed in the last few years in Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan, Congo, Gaza, eastern Ukraine etc. All classed as "collateral damage".
Probably the main difference is that these were mostly "first world" tourists, but that does not make their individual lives more valuable than those of third world peasants.

oscarBravo · 21-07-2014 09:41AM

stevejazzx wrote: »

That being said one of the most overlooked questions right now is why the flight was in that area.

Because - the dazzling clarity of hindsight aside - it had no compelling reason not to be. The airspace below FL320 was restricted; it was travelling at FL330.

A comparison of the 10 previous show them all on different paths outside the effective warzone and no flight zone.

That's factually incorrect. The same flight flew over Donetsk the previous day.

recedite · 21-07-2014 10:17AM

If the airspace was not restricted by Ukraine aviation authority, despite the fact that the known range of SAM missiles on the ground was way above that altitude, and some airlines continued to overfly, then it tells us two things;

1. Ukraine has its reasons for wanting civil aircraft to continue to overfly.
2. Airlines don't like to spend any more money on fuel than they have to.

As for this particular flight path, if it deviated from its original course and started to descend into the conflict zone shortly before it was shot down, from the point of view of somebody operating the SAM missile battery on the ground it would unfortunately have taken on some of the characteristics of an enemy military transport plane.

robindch · 21-07-2014 10:36AM

stevejazzx wrote: »

I am inclined to agree more with Recedites post above that no real evidence has been presented and yet a definitive conclusion has been made in world's media.

I disagree that there's been no "real evidence" produced. I don't have time to summarize the thousands of individual items - propaganda and accurate information and everything in between - which have flooded Twitter since last Thursday, but the following brief written by the US Embassy in Ukraine goes through what, at this time, is known with a good degree of confidence:

http://ukraine.usembassy.gov/statements/asmt-07192014.html

The summary does not include anything regarding the comments of the Russian government or their proxies in East Ukraine - both of which sets of comments have been telling.

US Embassy wrote:

We assess that Flight MH17 was likely downed by a SA-11 surface-to-air missile from separatist-controlled territory in eastern Ukraine. We base this judgment on several factors.

Over the past month, we have detected an increasing amount of heavy weaponry to separatist fighters crossing the border from Russia into Ukraine. Last weekend, Russia sent a convoy of military equipment with up to 150 vehicles including tanks, armored personnel carriers, artillery, and multiple rocket launchers to the separatist. We also have information indicating that Russia is providing training to separatist fighters at a facility in southwest Russia, and this effort included training on air defense systems.

Pro-Russian separatist fighters have demonstrated proficiency with surface-to-air missile systems and have downed more than a dozen aircraft over the past few months, including two large transport aircraft. At the time that flight MH17 dropped out of contact, we detected a surface-to-air missile (SAM) launch from a separatist-controlled area in southeastern Ukraine. We believe this missile was an SA-11.

Intercepts of separatist communications posted on YouTube by the Ukrainian government indicate the separatists were in possession of a SA-11 system as early as Monday July 14th. In the intercepts, the separatists made repeated references to having and repositioning Buk (SA-11) systems.

Social media postings on Thursday show an SA-11 system traveling through the separatist-controlled towns of Torez and Snizhne, near the crash site and assessed location of the SAM launch. From this location, the SA-11 has the range and altitude capability to have shot down flight MH17.

Ukraine also operates SA-11 systems, but we are confident no Ukrainian air defense systems were within range of the crash. Ukrainian forces have also not fired a single surface-to-air missile during the conflict, despite often complaining about violations of their airspace by Russian military aircraft.

Shortly after the crash, separatists – including the self-proclaimed “Defense Minister” of the Donetsk People’s Republic Igor Strelkov – claimed responsibility for shooting down a military transport plane on social media.

In an intercepted conversation that has been widely posted on the internet, a known-separatist leader tells another person that a separatist faction downed the aircraft. After it became evident that the plane was a civilian airliner, separatists deleted social media posts boasting about shooting down a plane and possessing a Buk (SA-11) SAM system.

Audio data provided to the press by the Ukrainian security service was evaluated by Intelligence Community analysts who confirmed these were authentic conversations between known separatist leaders, based on comparing the Ukraine-released internet audio to recordings of known separatists.

Video posted on social media yesterday show an SA-11 on a transporter traveling through the Krasnodon are back to Russia. The video indicated the system was missing at least one missile, suggesting it had conducted a launch.

Events on the ground at the crash site clearly demonstrate that separatists are in full control of the area.

robindch · 21-07-2014 10:56AM

recedite wrote: »

[...] the Kiev regime.

The government in Kiev is not a "regime". It is an administration which expresses, generally accurately, the results of the Ukrainian democratic process and the wishes of the majority of the Ukrainian people.

President Petro Poroshenko was elected fairly and squarely by an absolute majority of the votes cast on May the 25th. Elections could not safely be held in the majority of the Donetsk and Lugunsk oblasts owing to the presence of Moscow-backed gunmen who had repeatedly threatened election officers and voters with violence. The current Ukrainian Parliament, the Verkhovna Rada, was elected on 28 October 2012 in an election which, while problematic in various ways, the European Academy for Elections Observation still announced was "not perfect but clearly acceptable" and was "in compliance with democratic norms".

Using the term "regime" to blacken the results of a still-nascent Ukrainian democratic process is unhelpful.

oscarBravo · 21-07-2014 11:14AM

recedite wrote: »

If the airspace was not restricted by Ukraine aviation authority, despite the fact that the known range of SAM missiles on the ground was way above that altitude, and some airlines continued to overfly, then it tells us two things;

1. Ukraine has its reasons for wanting civil aircraft to continue to overfly.
2. Airlines don't like to spend any more money on fuel than they have to.

I don't like to spend any more money on fuel than I have to. The airspace over FL320 wasn't restricted, which suggests that the relevant authorities thought the risk to civilian airliners wasn't significant, which was a reasonable assessment until one was shot down.

As for this particular flight path, if it deviated from its original course and started to descend into the conflict zone shortly before it was shot down...

Did it do those things? I haven't seen this suggested before. Do you have a source?

recedite · 21-07-2014 11:18AM

The Kiev regime clearly does not represent the people of East Ukraine.
If it did, it would not be conducting air strikes and artillery bombardments of their cities.
If the people of Scotland decided to vote unilaterally for independence, I cannot imagine any circumstances in which the British army/RAF would launch air strikes and artillery bombardments against Glasgow and Edinburgh.

oscarBravo · 21-07-2014 11:22AM

recedite wrote: »

The Kiev regime clearly does not represent the people of East Ukraine.
If it did, it would not be conducting air strikes and artillery bombardments of their cities.
If the people of Scotland decided to vote unilaterally for independence, I cannot imagine any circumstances in which the British army/RAF would launch air strikes and artillery bombardments against Glasgow and Edinburgh.

If some of the people of Cornwall announced that they were declaring an independent state and seized control of RAF and army bases, you think the "London regime" would just shrug and say "fair enough, so"?

robindch · 21-07-2014 11:26AM

recedite wrote: »

The Kiev regime clearly does not represent the people of East Ukraine.

Since Moscow-backed gunmen prevented the presidential election from taking place in the majority of polling stations there, it's impossible to know what the views of the people of East Ukraine are. Do you condemn this prevention?

On the other hand, in the parliament, the people of East Ukraine are represented now as they were six months ago before the "regime" terminology was introduced by state-controlled media in Russia, so can we assume you're happy that the Parliament at least does not constitute a "regime".

recedite · 21-07-2014 11:33AM

oscarBravo wrote: »

Did it do those things? I haven't seen this suggested before. Do you have a source?

It may have dropped 2000 feet and diverted north. source
If info from the black box matches transcripts and info from air traffic control, that will be a good indication of what actually happened.

recedite · 21-07-2014 11:35AM

robindch wrote: »

it's impossible to know what the views of the people of East Ukraine are.

Do you think its OK to bomb them into submission?

robindch · 21-07-2014 11:36AM

recedite wrote: »

Do you think its OK to bomb them into submission?

I think that no civilian population should be bombed and combatants on both sides of a conflict have a responsibility to respect this.

Do you condemn the Moscow-backed gunmen's threatening election officials and voters with violence?

oscarBravo · 21-07-2014 12:02PM

recedite wrote: »

It may have dropped 2000 feet and diverted north. source

That's not "descending into the conflict zone", that's descending from three thousand feet above restricted airspace to a thousand feet above restricted airspace.

I'm picking on this point because there's a great deal of subtle victim blaming going on around this issue. There's only one place to point blame, and that's at whoever shot down a civilian airliner. I think it's entirely likely that whoever did so thought that they were shooting a military plane, but that doesn't substantially lessen their guilt.

I'm getting awfully tired of hearing "the plane shouldn't have been over Donetsk" from people that weren't saying "there shouldn't be planes over Donetsk" before this tragedy.

jimeryan22 · 21-07-2014 12:19PM

robindch wrote: »

The government in Kiev is not a "regime". It is an administration which expresses, generally accurately, the results of the Ukrainian democratic process and the wishes of the majority of the Ukrainian people.

President Petro Poroshenko was elected fairly and squarely by an absolute majority of the votes cast on May the 25th. Elections could not safely be held in the majority of the Donetsk and Lugunsk oblasts owing to the presence of Moscow-backed gunmen who had repeatedly threatened election officers and voters with violence. The current Ukrainian Parliament, the Verkhovna Rada, was elected on 28 October 2012 in an election which, while problematic in various ways, the European Academy for Elections Observation still announced was "not perfect but clearly acceptable" and was "in compliance with democratic norms".

Using the term "regime" to blacken the results of a still-nascent Ukrainian democratic process is unhelpful.

We're still saying they're legitimate are we..? Good one..
Some would say the plane wouldn't have been shot down at all if.. The us state department hadn't started the whole crisis through an illegal coup, installing a puppet government and the two faced ill work for whoever is in power poroshenko, and I swear I'm not corrupt...

Yeah keep telling yourself the current lot running Ukraine are lawful...

jimeryan22 · 21-07-2014 12:21PM

At least I'm seeing someone saying... There is no clear evidence yet...
None... Just hearsay and propaganda
Seeing papers Saturday morning saying "putins victims" and the likes are bloody disgraceful

jimeryan22 · 21-07-2014 12:25PM

oscarBravo wrote: »

That's not "descending into the conflict zone", that's descending from three thousand feet above restricted airspace to a thousand feet above restricted airspace.

I'm picking on this point because there's a great deal of subtle victim blaming going on around this issue. There's only one place to point blame, and that's at whoever shot down a civilian airliner. I think it's entirely likely that whoever did so thought that they were shooting a military plane, but that doesn't substantially lessen their guilt.

I'm getting awfully tired of hearing "the plane shouldn't have been over Donetsk" from people that weren't saying "there shouldn't be planes over Donetsk" before this tragedy.

Keep getting tired then... Planes were warned prior to this to not fly over the area....

http://m.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2014/07/the-faas-notice-prohibiting-airline-flights-over-ukraine/374622/

robindch · 21-07-2014 12:39PM

jimeryan22 wrote: »

Yeah keep telling yourself the current lot running Ukraine are lawful...

I'm saying that they had an electoral process which they followed as best they could given the circumstances.

I don't recall anybody disputing the legitimacy of the Rada before February 18th or the illegitimacy of what Russia's been been up to, and continues to do, in East Ukraine. Your comments about the US installing a puppet government via an illegal coup are unsupported by facts.

jimeryan22 · 21-07-2014 12:42PM

robindch wrote: »

I'm saying that they had an electoral process which they followed as best they could given the circumstances.

I don't recall anybody disputing the legitimacy of the Rada before February 18th or the illegitimacy of what Russia's been been up to, and continues to do, in East Ukraine. Your comments about the US installing a puppet government via an illegal coup are unsupported by facts.

I don't think so... At this point I think even the cave men in afganistan have even heard Victoria nulland tapes clearly saying who was going to go into government there..
Oh and of course wiki leaks showing correspondence between US state department and poroshenko months before crisis but ah.. Sure that's just tin hat-ery....

robindch · 21-07-2014 12:44PM

oscarBravo wrote: »

I'm picking on this point because there's a great deal of subtle victim blaming going on around this issue.

Many people seem to be following Putin's line on the tragedy.

Putin has placed the blame, not on the people who fired the missile, but instead squarely on Poroshenko's shoulders for ending a unilaterial ceasefire and thereby, forcing Moscow's gunmen to defend themselves with top of the line surface to air missiles.

robindch · 21-07-2014 12:49PM

jimeryan22 wrote: »

Victoria nulland tapes clearly saying who was going to go into government there [...] Sure that's just tin hat-ery....

Perhaps you could repost that bit of Victoria Nuland's leaked conversation?

I certainly don't recall the part in which she says that the US had successfully undermined the Ukrainian democratic process sufficiently to install her own chosen leader. Now anything about how this was done.

jimeryan22 · 21-07-2014 01:07PM

robindch wrote: »

Perhaps you could repost that bit of Victoria Nuland's leaked conversation?

I certainly don't recall the part in which she says that the US had successfully undermined the Ukrainian democratic process sufficiently to install her own chosen leader. Now anything about how this was done.

So you never heard about Yatz as she called him going in and getting the UN to ratify and **** the EU. Never heard that no..?

robindch · 21-07-2014 01:11PM

jimeryan22 wrote: »

So you never heard about Yatz as she called him going in and getting the UN to ratify and **** the EU. Never heard that no..?

Perhaps you could repost that bit of Victoria Nuland's leaked conversation in which she says that the US had successfully undermined the Ukrainian democratic process sufficiently to install their own chosen leader?

jimeryan22 · 21-07-2014 01:27PM

robindch wrote: »

Perhaps you could repost that bit of Victoria Nuland's leaked conversation in which she says that the US had successfully undermined the Ukrainian democratic process sufficiently to install their own chosen leader?

Really..? So you think this was all a Ukrainian nationals uprising with absolutely no outside interference do you..?
And of course Victoria wasn't talking anything to do with messing in another country's affairs..?

jimeryan22 · 21-07-2014 01:54PM

Victorias phonecall...

http://youtu.be/2QxZ8t3V_bk

robindch · 21-07-2014 01:55PM

jimeryan22 wrote: »

And of course Victoria wasn't talking anything to do with messing in another country's affairs..?

You said:

jimeryan22 wrote:

even the cave men in afganistan have even heard Victoria nulland tapes clearly saying who was going to go into government there

Since the cavemen in Afghanistan had heard of it, it should be quite simple for you to post that bit of Nuland's leaked conversation in which she says that the US had successfully undermined the Ukrainian democratic process sufficiently to install their own chosen leader?

If you can't, then I suggest you retract your claim that the US was interfering in the domestic affairs of Ukraine.

robindch · 21-07-2014 01:56PM

jimeryan22 wrote: »

http://youtu.be/2QxZ8t3V_bk

That's great. Which bit exactly? You can just quote the text.

jimeryan22 · 21-07-2014 02:13PM

robindch wrote: »

You said:Since the cavemen in Afghanistan had heard of it, it should be quite simple for you to post that bit of Nuland's leaked conversation in which she says that the US had successfully undermined the Ukrainian democratic process sufficiently to install their own chosen leader?

If you can't, then I suggest you retract your claim that the US was interfering in the domestic affairs of Ukraine.

I'll retract nothing.. If you want to pretend it's not the case because the language of the phone call doesn't say word for word what you want it too in order to pass your scrutiny fair enough.. Those of us in the real world know, coup fair and simple..

jimeryan22 · 21-07-2014 02:36PM

Interesting article by tin hat wearing nut someone called the guy on here before..
Dr Paul Craig Roberts.. A guy with more experience of ins and outs of governments than most... But of course he's a "nut". For those who think he's not.. Maybe this will interest you

http://www.paulcraigroberts.org/2014/07/19/happened-malaysian-airliner-paul-craig-roberts/

robindch · 21-07-2014 03:19PM

jimeryan22 wrote: »

Interesting article by tin hat wearing nut someone called the guy on here before. Dr Paul Craig Roberts.

The hats aren't made from tin, but tinfoil, Jim. Otherwise they wouldn't stop the CIA's evil, neoliberal fascist mind-control rays!

jimeryan22 wrote: »

because the language of the phone call doesn't say word for word what you want it too in order to pass your scrutiny fair enough.

No, I was really trying to establish if the phone call says what you says it says. You now accept that it does not.

Thanks for that.

jimeryan22 · 21-07-2014 03:26PM

robindch wrote: »

The hats aren't made from tin, but tinfoil, Jim. Otherwise they wouldn't stop the CIA's evil, neoliberal fascist mind-control rays!No, I was really trying to establish if the phone call says what you says it says. You now accept that it does not.

Thanks for that.

I accept it doesn't word it as your highness would like.. But it's proof enough..

Claim: 'Kyiv is the mother of all Russian Cities'

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