Claim: 'Kyiv is the mother of all Russian Cities'

Sulla Felix

S.R. wrote: »

So you have evidence that Putin shot plane down? If you don't then stop your mad barking, go to hell and take obama, nooland, kerry, poroshenko etc.

And you have proof that it was "ukrainian freedom from putin fighters" as you put it?
Point scoring off a tragedy is reprehensible.

S.R.

Sulla Felix wrote: »

And you have proof that it was "ukrainian freedom from putin fighters" as you put it?

I knew I would be asked this question.))

At least I have brains to understand who benefit from tragedy, who does have means to shot it down, why it happened now when pro-russian forces are destroying ukranian forces in trap near russian border, when EU is reluctant to agree with new american proposed sanctions, when Putin travelled to Latin America for BRICS summit.

Sulla Felix wrote: »

Point scoring off a tragedy is reprehensible.

Agree.
But don't forget to inform about it obama and Co.

recedite

We don't know who shot down the plane, or why.
The Americans are making a big deal about the probable country of origin of the weapon. This ignores the fact that nearly all the armaments possessed by both the separatists and Poroshenko are Russian made, for historical reasons.
If Ukraine joins Nato, they will have to switch to mostly US and EU manufactured armaments.

I expect the various sides will produce "evidence" that the other is responsible; grainy satellite photos, audio tapes and mobile phone recordings.
We won't know what is fake and what is real.
People on this thread and elsewhere will choose to believe whichever "evidence" suits the agenda they already had before the plane was shot down.
IMO the airline was negligent in flying over a war zone, knowing that SAM missiles were in use below. Just because other airlines were also doing it is no excuse. Anyway, 298 people have tragically become "collateral damage" in someone else's war.

PopePalpatine

S.R. wrote: »

If you concerned about dictatorship then don't read american and british newspapers.
And generally, don't use words the meanings of which you don't know. In gas-chamber of Buchenwald you would learn for sure what fascist dictatorship really is. Right now you just sound like someone who swallowed FOX channel.

And right now you sound like someone who swallowed LifeNews and RT. Putin might not be Hitler, but right now he's more like Mussolini in the infancy of his reign over Italy.

Hotblack Desiato

recedite wrote: »

We don't know who shot down the plane, or why.

We don't know whether there are 796 babies buried in the grounds of that home, either, after all nobody has excavated them :rolleyes:

IMO the airline was negligent in flying over a war zone, knowing that SAM missiles were in use below. Just because other airlines were also doing it is no excuse. Anyway, 298 people have tragically become "collateral damage" in someone else's war.

Victim blaming. Congratulations. That woman who was raped should never have walked down that street alone at night.

Turtwig

To be fair to Obama, Putin, most other world leaders, they've chosen their words very wisely. "Incident" Everyone seems to acknowledge that while the plane was most probably shot down it was accidental. That's where the praise ends.

The reason the US is a making a big deal of where the weapon was supplied from is because Russia was in denial of sending such armaments.

That Pro Russian separatists and pro Ukrainians have to score points off this is reprehensible! Though also a bit fascinating too.

S.R.

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

We don't know whether there are 796 babies buried in the grounds of that home, either, after all nobody has excavated them

Evidence! Give us evidence and leave your blah-blah-blah for kitchen talk.

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Victim blaming. Congratulations. That woman who was raped should never have walked down that street alone at night.

Yes, you don't walk in the streets where firefight is going on!!! Don't bring rape example here: people were killed not raped i.e. injured!

And ask ukranians why plane's flight plan was changed so that plane fly over war zone. Initially plane's route was hundreds kilometers away from where it did flew.

S.R.

PopePalpatine wrote: »

And right now you sound like someone who swallowed LifeNews and RT. Putin might not be Hitler, but right now he's more like Mussolini in the infancy of his reign over Italy.

Putin is Mussolini? That's better! You see: you are improving together with Putin!
Leave you contact details, I will book you for my birthday party. After your "Putin is Mussolini" thing I feel I must book you as clown.

Turtwig

recedite wrote: »

We don't know who shot down the plane, or why.
The Americans are making a big deal about the probable country of origin of the weapon. This ignores the fact that nearly all the armaments possessed by both the separatists and Poroshenko are Russian made, for historical reasons.
If Ukraine joins Nato, they will have to switch to mostly US and EU manufactured armaments.

I expect the various sides will produce "evidence" that the other is responsible; grainy satellite photos, audio tapes and mobile phone recordings.
We won't know what is fake and what is real.
People on this thread and elsewhere will choose to believe whichever "evidence" suits the agenda they already had before the plane was shot down.
IMO the airline was negligent in flying over a war zone, knowing that SAM missiles were in use below. Just because other airlines were also doing it is no excuse. Anyway, 298 people have tragically become "collateral damage" in someone else's war.

Why would the Ukrainian army shoot down anything airborne? The rebels had no such aerial capabilities. It's possible they shot it down but it'd be about as bizarre as if the disappeared Malaysia airline plane actually being involved in a cover up for this crash turned out to be true.

On the other hand you have the separatists who already shot down a transport plane. It's in their interest - and Russia's- to shoot down more. Shoot enough planes down, Ukrainian military activity must increase, increased instability. All desirable outcomes if you're a separatist.

Simply put it benefits the rebels more to shoot down something airborne than it does the Ukrainian state. Unless they wanted to frame the separatists. Even there with that massive assumption the reasoning is still stupid. Given the words by chosen by Putin so far I'm inclined to think he agrees. If the plane was shot down it was by pro Russian separatists.

Let the misinformation games begin! And the facts ever be in your favor.

S.R.

Turtwig wrote: »

Why would the Ukrainian army shoot down anything airborne?

Why in 2001 ukranian army shot down Sibir Airlines' plane?

Sulla Felix

S.R. wrote: »

Why in 2001 ukranian army shot down Sibir Airlines' plane?

It's fairly well documented they were carrying out live fire anti-air war games in the area.

Now, unless you information that they were doing the same in east Ukraine in the past few days I'd say the one has nothing to do with the other.

Edit: Anyway, if we're going to indulge in fantasy, I'm going to go ahead and say the Chinese did it to frame the Russians/seperatists. Ultimately they'll benefit from the further estrangement of Russia and the west.

S.R.

Sulla Felix wrote: »

It's fairly well documented they were carrying out live fire anti-air war games in the area.

Now, unless you information that they were doing the same in east Ukraine in the past few days I'd say the one has nothing to do with the other.

Edit: Anyway, if we're going to indulge in fantasy, I'm going to go ahead and say the Chinese did it to frame the Russians/seperatists. Ultimately they'll benefit from the further estrangement of Russia and the west.

Information? There is going on something more serious than live fire anti-war games in east Ukraine which is war - that's information. War as well as live war games can bring down any plane therefore question "why would ukranian army shot down plane?" is strange and irrelevant.

Sulla Felix

S.R. wrote: »

Information? There is going on something more serious than live fire anti-war games in east Ukraine which is war - that's information. War as well as live war games can bring down any plane therefore question "why would ukranian army shot down plane?" is strange and irrelevant.

It's not and you know it's not but we can't really expect you to stop being disingenuous at this late stage.
The Ukranian army aren't actively engaged in an anti-air conflict because the rebels don't have any air power to speak of. Only one party has recent form in using anti-air weapons in the recent past and that's the separatists.

S.R.

Sulla Felix wrote: »

It's not and you know it's not but we can't really expect you to stop being disingenuous at this late stage.
The Ukranian army aren't actively engaged in an anti-air conflict because the rebels don't have any air power to speak of. Only one party has recent form in using anti-air weapons in the recent past and that's the separatists.

Yeah, one party did use anti-air weapons. The weapons with max altitude of 5-6 km. Boeing was at 10 km. Do rebels have such powerful anti-air weapons? I don't know. If you know show me evidence.
What I know for sure is that rebels have no planes at all, that ukranians do have military planes and anti-air weapons powerful enough to shot down plane at 10 km.

Sulla Felix

S.R. wrote: »

Yeah, one party did use anti-air weapons. The weapons with max altitude of 5-6 km. Boeing was at 10 km. Do rebels have such powerful anti-air weapons? I don't know. If you know show me evidence.
What I know for sure is that rebels have no planes at all, that ukranians do have military planes and anti-air weapons powerful enough to shot down plane at 10 km.

Oh please, it was leaked in the Russian press weeks ago that the separatists had their hands on a Buk. Look it up, unless itartass deleted the article.

S.R.

Sulla Felix wrote: »

Oh please, it was leaked in the Russian press weeks ago that the separatists had their hands on a Buk. Look it up, unless itartass deleted the article.

Ukrainian authorities have stated that militias seized Ukrainian BUKs, but then the Ukrainians themselves denied this information.

Corkfeen

You've gotta worry when a person shows up that views Putin as a lovely fellow that just backs proxy wars in Ukraine. Can't help but feel he's supportive of Putin's homophobic laws too. All opposition is just Western media propaganda and we're far less corrupt than Putin who's past has been expunged from the record.

S.R.

Corkfeen wrote: »

You've gotta worry when a person shows up that views Putin as a lovely fellow that just backs proxy wars in Ukraine. Can't help but feel he's supportive of Putin's homophobic laws too. All opposition is just Western media propaganda and we're far less corrupt than Putin who's past has been expunged from the record.

Who is mentioned person?

Corkfeen

S.R. wrote: »

Who is mentioned person?

You sir. You will defend Russia at any cost while making Fox news jibes about posters while most posters wouldn't take it in the slightest bit seriously. The Russian press is not a free press and most people are aware of this.

S.R.

Corkfeen wrote: »

You sir. You will defend Russia at any cost while making Fox news jibes about posters while most posters wouldn't take it in the slightest bit seriously. The Russian press is not a free press and most people are aware of this.

And american or british press are as free as angels? Yeah?

By the way, what homophobic laws are you talking about? Please give link, I would like to read. And why out of all Putin's crimes you mentioned only homophobic laws? Is it something personal?

Corkfeen

S.R. wrote: »

And american or british press are as free as angels? Yeah?

By the way, what homophobic laws are you talking about? Please give link, I would like to read. And why out of all Putin's crimes you mentioned only homophobic laws? Is it something personal?

World press freedom is pretty free in the west tbh. For example if one media outlet fails to report a story because of a bias. Others will report it. You run into monopolisation of media outlets occasionally for example Murdoch but other media outlets still exist. Internet censorship is pretty much non existent with some minor exception. When the Crimea crisis occurred. Russia started to block certain sites that had issues with their foreign policy. Journalists do not get blacklisted and face potential detention or even death. From 1992-2006, Russia was the 3rd most dangerous place for journalists. 20 journalists have been murdered in the past 14 years. Basically a climate of fear is fostered around reporting events as there's a chance you'll end up assassinated because of it.So **** me, it's not a comparable situation here!

The law I was referring to is the LGBT propaganda law,it's a law that encourages homophobia and effectively classifies homosexuality as a crime. As a result you have groups that hunt down people because they're gay. This is tolerated by the state of Russia. In terms of it being personal, as a straight male I view treating people equally as important. I condemn all human rights violations.

Annexing Crimea for example with a dodgy referendum that was run within a week of Russian Separatists taking over is clearly not a legitimate referendum.

A group that are backed by Russia shooting down a civilian plane is just another example of the dodgy government tbh. I assume you'll classify this all as western propaganda though.

S.R.

Corkfeen wrote: »

World press freedom is pretty free in the west tbh. For example if one media outlet fails to report a story because of a bias. Others will report it. You run into monopolisation of media outlets occasionally for example Murdoch but other media outlets still exist. Internet censorship is pretty much non existent with some minor exception. When the Crimea crisis occurred. Russia started to block certain sites that had issues with their foreign policy. Journalists do not get blacklisted and face potential detention or even death. From 1992-2006, Russia was the 3rd most dangerous place for journalists. 20 journalists have been murdered in the past 14 years. Basically a climate of fear is fostered around reporting events as there's a chance you'll end up assassinated because of it.So **** me, it's not a comparable situation here!

The law I was referring to is the LGBT propaganda law,it's a law that encourages homophobia and effectively classifies homosexuality as a crime. As a result you have groups that hunt down people because they're gay. This is tolerated by the state of Russia. In terms of it being personal, as a straight male I view treating people equally as important. I condemn all human rights violations.

Annexing Crimea for example with a dodgy referendum that was run within a week of Russian Separatists taking over is clearly not a legitimate referendum.

A group that are backed by Russia shooting down a civilian plane is just another example of the dodgy government tbh. I assume you'll classify this all as western propaganda though.

Are you gay?

Corkfeen

S.R. wrote: »

Are you gay?

I clearly stated I was straight, it shouldn't really matter given the points raised tbh....

S.R.

Corkfeen wrote: »

I clearly stated I was straight, it shouldn't really matter given the points raised tbh....

OK then.
Now tell me, do u really believe that if some gay from Cork does travel to Russia he will be arrested and put in prison?

Corkfeen

S.R. wrote: »

OK then.
Now tell me, do u really believe that if some gay from Cork does travel to Russia he will be arrested and put in prison?

So if they only arrest citizens, that's fine? The law has brought about increases in violences against gay people and has further stigmatised a group in Russian society. Abductions and entrapment occurs. The Russian government has no issue with arresting Russian citizens who are activists for gay rights. But this scenario is fine with you? You should send a memo to all the human rights groups and members of the public that view it as a serious issue.
http://www.hrw.org/news/2014/02/03/russia-sochi-games-highlight-homophobic-violence

Oh and we also have this fine line of equating paedophilia with homosexuality. Right from the mouth of Vladimir Putin. He works against the rights of certain parts of his society.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/putin-gays-will-be-safe-at-olympics-if-they-leave-kids-alone/2014/01/17/e6f8c47e-7f7d-11e3-95c6-0a7aa80874bc_story.html

S.R.

Corkfeen, here is your western angel like media.

This is today's Irish Times:

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/europe/rebels-obstructing-efforts-at-mh17-crash-site-in-ukraine-1.1872224

"Rebels ‘obstructing’ efforts at MH17 crash site in Ukraine" - I am pissing my pants laughing.

Now look here:

http://www.1tv.ru/news/world/263472

Google translate:

"We went back to the crash site in the morning. We were able to see an even greater area. Also we were able to talk with representatives of the services, local residents and those involved bodies. As with any job, the interaction improves with time. I stress that we were granted access yesterday and today, "- said the deputy head of the special OSCE observation mission in Ukraine Alexander Hug.

That's your free media. Free to produce any kind of crap to feed your vision of our world.

Now lets ask question: if members of OSCE are at plane crash, why do Irish Times and others say that pro-russian rebels under Putin's command "obstructing" efforts?
Another question: Where are international experts?
Here we go:

http://www.1tv.ru/news/world/263476

Google translate:

"132 specialists from Malaysia arrived in Kiev. In group - investigators, doctors and military. By accident site they will go when decide all matters relating to security."

Do you understand? They just arrived in Kiev and when two sides agree on security measures Malaysians will go to plane crash. But your angel media don't say this. They say "Evil Putin do not let international experts investigate..blah-blah-blah".

S.R.

Corkfeen wrote: »

So if they only arrest citizens, that's fine? The law has brought about increases in violences against gay people and has further stigmatised a group in Russian society. Abductions and entrapment occurs. The Russian government has no issue with arresting Russian citizens who are activists for gay rights. But this scenario is fine with you? You should send a memo to all the human rights groups and members of the public that view it as a serious issue.
http://www.hrw.org/news/2014/02/03/russia-sochi-games-highlight-homophobic-violence

Oh and we also have this fine line of equating paedophilia with homosexuality. Right from the mouth of Vladimir Putin. He works against the rights of certain parts of his society.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/putin-gays-will-be-safe-at-olympics-if-they-leave-kids-alone/2014/01/17/e6f8c47e-7f7d-11e3-95c6-0a7aa80874bc_story.html

I will tell you this one, there are gay parades, gays can marry, can adopt kids, now people have to forget words "mother" and "father" and use instead "parent 1" and "parent 2" etc., so don't worry - legalization of pedophilia and incest is not far away.

S.R.

Brian Shanahan, you are acting like a kid I swear to Putin!

Yesterday you told me "It's not worth my while talking to you." but since then you are keeping saying "thanks" to my opponents.

Corkfeen

S.R. wrote: »

I will tell you this one, there are gay parades, gays can marry, can adopt kids, now people have to forget words "mother" and "father" and use instead "parent 1" and "parent 2" etc., so don't worry - legalization of pedophilia and incest is not far away.

Ah so you do approve of the laws,you've really shown your colours very quickly. You've not actually disproven anything I've said by the way. Although you do sound a bit like Putin right now.

In relation to a misreport from Reuters which the press picked up on, isn't exactly as damning as you seem to think it. For example the Guardian has no issue quoting and reporting accurately about the site.Directly from the OCSE. Tell me where is the freedom of press infringed upon western media as you claim?

Rebels on the scene refused to comment on this, but again made life difficult for OSCE observers at the site. "We have to be very careful with our movements because of all the security … We are unarmed civilians, so we are not in a position to argue with people with heavy arms," said Bociurkiw.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/20/malaysia-airlines-mh17-crash-russia-victims-ukraine

Just because you wish because you wish to claim this as a western media conspiracy theory and supposed lack of freedom of press,does not mean it is founded in fact. The OCSE quotes are carried in numerous publications btw.
https://news.google.com/news?ncl=dtUl6IFOeaFv0LMU6NcqYxQIbaibM&q=%22We+have+to+be+very+careful+with+our+movements+because+of+all+the+security+%E2%80%A6+We+are+unarmed+civilians,+so+we+are+not+in+a+position+to+argue+with+people+with+heavy+arms,%22&lr=English&hl=en&sa=X&ei=b9vKU4LMNK-w7Abf44H4Dw&ved=0CCIQqgIwAA

S.R.

Corkfeen, and what's wrong with this one:

Putin: Gay people will be safe at Olympics if they ‘leave kids alone’ ?????

The Vladimir is absolutely right!