Claim: 'Kyiv is the mother of all Russian Cities'

stevejazzx

oscarBravo wrote: »

I've looked at the flightaware data. Have you? And my point is that, despite people saying so, the source they're citing for this information - flightaware - says that the flight was on the same path it had usually taken.

What?
Are you ignoring all the articles and opinions from everybody in the world trying to understand why it was on a different course????

http://uk.flightaware.com/news/article/Malaysia-Airlines-Flight-17-MAS17MH17-crashes-in-Ukraine/195

OB wrote:

The point is that the risk is impossible to quantify. If MH17 was flying over Donetsk, it's because the pilot deemed the level of risk acceptable - no commercial pilot flies a route that he thinks might result in being shot down.

Absolute nonsense OB
The area was under continual discussion from aviation analysts, pilots and airlines. That's why some airlines (read the links already posted) stopped flying that route prior to MH17.
How selective can your goggling be?
The risk was not contained to a height - as has been pointed out the rebels were known to be in possession of BUK's (with ranges of up to 72,000ft)

oscarBravo

stevejazzx wrote: »

Are you ignoring all the articles and opinions from everybody in the world trying to understand why it was on a different course????

I'm asking whether you actually have any data to suggest that it was, in fact, on an unusual course, given that the actual data on flightaware - which you keep referencing, and which I keep asking if you've actually looked at - suggests that it wasn't, in fact, unusual.

The area was under continual discussion from aviation analysts, pilots and airlines. That's why some airlines (read the links already posted) stopped flying that route prior to MH17.

And some airlines didn't.

If it makes you feel better, I'll agree with you that it is now obvious in hindsight that there was a danger to civilian airliners from anti-aircraft missiles. The difference between us is that I would rather the questions focus more on how to prevent idiots shooting down airplanes rather than how airplanes can defend themselves from idiots with SAMs.

stevejazzx

oscarBravo wrote: »

I'm asking whether you actually have any data to suggest that it was, in fact, on an unusual course, given that the actual data on flightaware - which you keep referencing, and which I keep asking if you've actually looked at - suggests that it wasn't, in fact, unusual.

Ok, deep breath, I posted, last post, a link, showing normal path (blue segmented line) vs actual path (green line) - I couldn't embed it as the image link went only to the home page. I thought you might click the link!
I have posted countless links with experts and analysts all weighing in on why the flight was on that particular path instead of being more northwards like similar flights in the weeks previous.
I can't do anything more for you - you're just going to have to write this one off as a cart before the horse intervention - you seemed to have good motives tough; there's always that.

recedite

Corkfeen wrote: »

...idiots with SAMs.

One minute they are supposed to be Putin's special forces personnel operating in Ukraine, the next minute they are supposed to be local yokels operating weapons they don't understand.
Maybe they are just people whose homes are being bombed, maybe they didn't choose the role of anti aircraft operators. Maybe they were trained in rocketry as conscripts, maybe not. I know a guy living in Dublin who was trained on one of these missile systems, years ago as a conscript. He chose rocketry because he had an interest in computer programming, but all of his age had to serve time as conscripts one way or another.

Its all a terrible tragedy, and ordinary people there are stuck in the middle of it. Like the coalminers who volunteered to collect up the body parts and put them in refrigerated railway carriages, and are then criticised in the west for not showing enough respect to the dead.

oscarBravo

stevejazzx wrote: »

Ok, deep breath, I posted, last post, a link, showing normal path (blue segmented line) vs actual path (green line) - I couldn't embed it as the image link went only to the home page. I thought you might click the link!

I clicked on the link. It was a page with two broken image tags.

So I did what I've been asking you to do: I looked at the actual flightaware track data for MH17 over the course of several days. Now, bear in mind that what you're arguing is that there's something suspicious about the fact that MH17 flew over Donetsk; a route that, apparently, it hadn't flown previously.

So I've captured images of the flightaware tracks for MH17 on the 16th, 17th and 18th of July - the day before, the day of, and the day after the incident.

The day before:



The ill-fated flight:



The following day:



The Twitter user whose graphic you linked claimed to have drawn the ten previous flights based on this data. I've pointed out that the data themselves don't support this claim. You've retorted that other people say they do, without ever apparently having looked at the data yourself.

I have posted countless links with experts and analysts all weighing in on why the flight was on that particular path instead of being more northwards like similar flights in the weeks previous.

And I've asked you to look at the actual flight data they claim to be basing this on, which you appear to be strangely reluctant to do.

recedite

Can you get altitude from the data? Just wondering at what point exactly it reduced altitude. Flight path is a bit erratic on entering eastern Ukraine, but not overly suspicious looking.

oscarBravo

recedite wrote: »

Can you get altitude from the data? Just wondering at what point exactly it reduced altitude. Flight path is a bit erratic on entering eastern Ukraine, but not overly suspicious looking.

I think we'll only get useful data when the flight recorders are studied. Note that I'm not drawing any conclusions from the flightaware tracks other than that they don't say what some people seem to be claiming they do.

jimeryan22

Ukrainian jet plane close at time to Malaysian plane...? Hmmmm

oscarBravo

jimeryan22 wrote: »

Ukrainian jet plane close at time to Malaysian plane...? Hmmmm

Hmmmm, what?

stevejazzx

oscarBravo wrote: »

I clicked on the link. It was a page with two broken image tags.

No it wasn't??
The link that I posted is the exactly the same data you've repated here.

This is getting worrying, strange and weird.

OB wrote:

So I did what I've been asking you to do: I looked at the actual flightaware track data for MH17 over the course of several days. Now, bear in mind that what you're arguing is that there's something suspicious about the fact that MH17 flew over Donetsk; a route that, apparently, it hadn't flown previously.

I'm not arguing it - aviation experts, analysts and airlines are - as in all those links I've posted with same experts analysts debating why?
I'm simply reporting it.

It is apparent you're reading the map of eastern Ukraine incorrectly making you believe that the previous plane(s) all flew right over directly over Donestk - they didn't
If you zoom out the dotted lines looks very close to mh17 but they're in fact 300 miles across.



Please read

http://www.businessinsider.com.au/a-fateful-thunderstorm-may-have-doomed-flight-mh17-2014-7

OB wrote:

So I've captured images of the flightaware tracks for MH17 on the 16th, 17th and 18th of July - the day before, the day of, and the day after the incident.

The day before:



The ill-fated flight:



The following day:



The Twitter user whose graphic you linked claimed to have drawn the ten previous flights based on this data. I've pointed out that the data themselves don't support this claim. You've retorted that other people say they do, without ever apparently having looked at the data yourself. And I've asked you to look at the actual flight data they claim to be basing this on, which you appear to be strangely reluctant to do.

The flight aware pics above that you claim just just gathered here you've are exactly the same link as I posted above

You're not reading the posts - you're ignoring the facts - this is really silly.

You've based the whole thing off the fact that you read the map incorrectly.

The pics above (you know the ones I linked to just before you presented them as ones you'd just gathered) shows the same data that MH17 was off its usual course.

robindch

stevejazzx wrote: »

I haven't seen the evidence the US presented for claiming the launch came from rebel held territory; have you?

Nope, as I said above, I haven't. I think it would be unlikely that John Kerry would knowingly lie about it given the crapstorm that ensued following false evidence that was presented in the run up to the illegal and crazy invasion of Iraq. I await the evidence with interest all the same.

stevejazzx wrote: »

I haven't heard them explicitly say it was rebel territory either?

John Kerry mentions it, as does the state department memo I quoted above.

stevejazzx wrote: »

The pics above (you know the ones I linked to just before you presented them as ones you'd just gathered) shows the same data that MH17 was off its usual course.

I haven't checked the flight paths, but even if one were to concede that MH17 flew a slightly different route to what it followed the previous day -- and planes do this all the time for a wide variety of reasons -- then for this to have any relevance, you're going to have to suggest who might have caused the plane to choose a different flight path, and you're going to have to connect this in some way with the subsequent shooting down.

Now, I haven't checked Russian state-controlled media since yesterday morning, but it wouldn't surprise me to learn that they're still quoting from the anonymous, but subsequently turned out to be fake, "Spanish air controller in Kiev" twitter account and linking the unevidinced claims from there with equally unevidinced claims from a Russian military guy that an "incompetent" Ukrainian military shot MH17 down by mistake, possibly with the help of an SU-26 or SU-25 (reports in Russia refer to both) which Kiev has denied was in the air.

stevejazzx

robindch wrote: »

Nope, as I said above, I haven't. I think it would be unlikely that John Kerry would knowingly lie about it given the crapstorm that ensued following false evidence that was presented in the run up to the illegal and crazy invasion of Iraq. I await the evidence with interest all the same.John Kerry mentions it, as does the state department memo I quoted above.

Fair enough

robin wrote:

I haven't checked the flight paths, but even if one were to concede that MH17 flew a slightly different route to what it followed the previous day -- and planes do this all the time for a wide variety of reasons --

Well yes and no - they tend to definitively not do this when the area is at risk or a war zone.

robin wrote:

hen for this to have any relevance, you're going to have to suggest who might have caused the plane to choose a different flight path, and you're going to have to connect this in some way with the subsequent shooting down.

Why me? i started out this point based on a report. I'm not pioneering it as some kind of defense or something which is somehow, obscurely, pro-Russian, it's not. The black box recording might give us some more information. Until then it just simply remains a little odd in my book but ultimately perfectly explainable in all manner of ways. Denying it happened on the other hand is a little, em, odd.

robin wrote:

Now, I haven't checked Russian state-controlled media since yesterday morning, but it wouldn't surprise me to learn that they're still quoting from the anonymous, but subsequently turned out to be fake, "Spanish air controller in Kiev" twitter account and linking the unevidinced claims from there with equally unevidinced claims from a Russian military guy that an "incompetent" Ukrainian military shot MH17 down by mistake, possibly with the help of an SU-26 or SU-25 (reports in Russia refer to both) which Kiev has denied was in the air.

I had heard this report and to be honest didn't even bother with it as I knew if it was true it would resurface in a big way.
It makes no sense to devise conspiracy theories here - all the info to date suggests that the rebels were responsible - which as I've stated - I think clearly by now - is my my current leaning.

jimeryan22

oscarBravo wrote: »

Hmmmm, what?

Hmmm. Isn't it interesting the Russians have now come out and shown what they claim to be data showing a Ukrainian jet right in the vicinity of the passenger plane around the time it was shot down...
That hmmmm..
I've thought from the start there's more to this whole mess.. Will be interesting to see what comes back from black boxes..
Some would say it's quite possible this is why Putin wasn't saying anything,
We may now find put all the previous reporting bull.. We'll see

oscarBravo

stevejazzx wrote: »

You've based the whole thing off the fact that you read the map incorrectly.

Here we go again.

I've done another overlay, combining the picture that claims to show MH17's track on July 16th as a dotted line (and claiming flightaware as the source for the data) with the actual July 16th track taken directly from flightaware:



If you have flightaware data showing that MH17 followed a flight path on July 16th other than the one I've illustrated above, would you be so good as to post it?

robindch

stevejazzx wrote: »

It makes no sense to devise conspiracy theories here

I completely agree. The vast majority of the current data, incompletely reliable and all as it is, points largely in one direction and looking forward, I don't expect that this is going to change as more evidence arrives in from the (damaged) crash site and equipment remains, from ATC and other external sources, from the (potentially interfered-with) black boxes, the bodies of the dead and so on.

jimeryan22

oscarBravo wrote: »

Here we go again.

I've done another overlay, combining the picture that claims to show MH17's track on July 16th as a dotted line (and claiming flightaware as the source for the data) with the actual July 16th track taken directly from flightaware:



If you have flightaware data showing that MH17 followed a flight path on July 16th other than the one I've illustrated above, would you be so good as to post it?

So Oscarbravo or Steve... Are we saying that the flight plan was changed..?
Namely someone told it to fly the way it did...?
Thanks

oscarBravo

jimeryan22 wrote: »

So Oscarbravo or Steve... Are we saying that the flight plan was changed..?

What I'm saying is that, despite several people claiming that MH17 flew an unusual route on the 17th, and citing flightaware as a source, flightaware data doesn't appear to support this claim.

Corkfeen

jimeryan22 wrote: »

So Oscarbravo or Steve... Are we saying that the flight plan was changed..?
Namely someone told it to fly the way it did...?
Thanks

*awaits altogether predictable false flag claim *

jimeryan22

Corkfeen wrote: »

*awaits altogether predictable false flag claim *

You are an idiot

jimeryan22

oscarBravo wrote: »

What I'm saying is that, despite several people claiming that MH17 flew an unusual route on the 17th, and citing flightaware as a source, flightaware data doesn't appear to support this claim.

Only asking mate, despite the other penis taking the mick...
There was that much back and forth it was getting very confusing...
What are we thinking about the report of Ukrainian jet in the vicinity...?

oscarBravo

jimeryan22 wrote: »

What are we thinking about the report of Ukrainian jet in the vicinity...?

I'm not sure what the significance is.

Corkfeen

jimeryan22 wrote: »

You are an idiot

We have a strong indication that Russian Separatists are responsible. You have claimed across the site that Russia are completely innocent. Them arming separatists is completely in line with what they have been doing in the region. You seem to believe public have been deceived by western propaganda so it seems like a fair conclusion on where you are going with subject.

jimeryan22

oscarBravo wrote: »

I'm not sure what the significance is.

You don't think it significant if a jet/jets were flying around within range of the plane..?

oscarBravo

jimeryan22 wrote: »

You don't think it significant if a jet/jets were flying around within range of the plane..?

What do you think the significance is (assuming it's true, which is a whole 'nother question)?

jimeryan22

oscarBravo wrote: »

What do you think the significance is (assuming it's true, which is a whole 'nother question)?

Why avoid my question and answer it with a question..?

oscarBravo

jimeryan22 wrote: »

Why avoid my question and answer it with a question..?

I don't know if it's significant, or even whether it's true.

What do you think the significance is?

jimeryan22

Corkfeen wrote: »

We have a strong indication that Russian Separatists are responsible. You have claimed across the site that Russia are completely innocent. Them arming separatists is completely in line with what they have been doing in the region. You seem to believe public have been deceived by western propaganda so it seems like a fair conclusion on where you are going with subject.

No no. We have hearsay, like said before.. Not facts..
Firstly, show me these facts.. Please do

Then please also show me where anywhere in any thread I have said Russia is innocent at all...

And as for your western media "line"
What like wmd's..? Ties to al queda..? Those lines..? Is it

Dades

jimeryan22 wrote: »

You are an idiot

I understand there's a high level of disagreement going on here but the next blatant insult will result in a card, jimeryan22. Note that in most forums you'd have got one without preamble. You have been warned.

jimeryan22

oscarBravo wrote: »

I don't know if it's significant, or even whether it's true.

What do you think the significance is?

Well I don't know... There's a few possibilities isn't there... Like what correspondence they had if any...? There wouldn't nesasarily be any records of any coms between planes..

oscarBravo

jimeryan22 wrote: »

Well I don't know... There's a few possibilities isn't there... Like what correspondence they had if any...? There wouldn't nesasarily be any records of any coms between planes..

Planes don't talk to each other. Planes talk to ATC, and those conversations are recorded.