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Claim: 'Kyiv is the mother of all Russian Cities'
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stevejazzx wrote: »It was the US who implicitly claimed they wouldn't go eastwards so I am not defending any magical right I think Russia should have in the say of other soverign countries - I am questioning why the US broke its promise so emphatically.
'Going eastwards' sounds like some sort of US invasion. NATO is a mutual defence pact.
It hasn't been conclusively established that the US indeed made any such promise, and as I've previously stated, IMHO they have no right to give assurances on behalf of any other country.Not only this but they (the US) unilaterally withdrew from the ABM Treaty. This is why, as any analyst would agree, Russia now has legitimate security concerns at its border - don't translate that into their right to invade as that's not what it means, obviously.
Withdrawing from the ABM treaty was a mistake, but the potential effect is on the strategic balance of power (by potentially impairing the effectiveness of Russia's deterrent.) It doesn't really matter that these installations are in neighbouring countries, they are defensive in and of themselves, what matters is the effect on Russia's deterrent not where they're based.I don't agree with these installations btw.This is a poorly thought out question. We will skip the fundamental idea of national security and get to what I think you wanted to ask.
It is a 'poorly thought out question' using your exact phrase!stevejazzx wrote: »They have legitimate concerns about their borders
So it's perfectly apt to ask what those concerns are, n'est-ce pas?
Now I find this next passage rather troubling:If a civil war is going to break out in a country on their doorstep then this will have obvious knock on effects to their country so they are legitimately allowed to be concerned. If that country shares their lineage and indeed harbors their own people then their claim to involvement increases significantly. if they have been subsidizing the entire economy of that country for the last 60 years (and in other ways since the 11th century in a mutual regard) then their claim increases further and so on and so on until you get an idea for the history that unites Ukraine and Russia.
Substitute Britain for Russia and Ireland for Ukraine. We share each other's lineage and have strong traditional and cultural links. A great many British citizens live here and many more of British descent. Britain could claim that it subsidised our economy until independence (it certainly does in the North.) 'Their claim increases further' ??? - could Britain use that to intervene in a civil conflict in the Republic, in that scenario??
What went on before 1992 is of limited relevance because until then, Ukraine was effectively a colony of Moscow.
If Russia since 1992 has been subsidising Ukraine then they must have regarded this as in their strategic interest to do so. There are precious few altruists in the world, and neither is the US one.None of these claims of legitimate involvement give them (Russia) any rights or excuses to behave illegally e.g annexation etc. but if they fear the loss of this land through complex foreign subterfuge then a grey area develops.
Loss of this land? It's not their land to lose!Within this grey area, something which is now approaching war - they are still not afforded any rights to contravene international law nor do I believe they should have any.
Agreed, but they have already done so, and are believed to be doing so in east Ukraine right now.However, there will need to be at some stage opposition to the mish-mosh of fascist radicals that have somehow got into power the Ukraine and who are fighting against Russian separatists.
Oh please. Not the 'fascists' line.The main reason why Russia has legitimate concerns is because ethnic Russians are involved en masse in major eastern Ukrainian cities, Donetsk, Karkhiv etc.
En masse? or activists and provocateurs? It's not hundreds of thousands of demonstrators, is it? I believe that most people in this area do not want unrest.So at this stage we have to wade through the propaganda - are Russia using agents to kick off a civil war? It's very difficult to tell if that is their game plan as they were happy with a lot less back in February. To make the jump that they now want this war seems illogical to me.
I don't believe Russia wants war, but that they want to gain as much as they possibly can without it.Wow. This comment shows your naivety on a very grand scale.
We will see.Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.
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'Going eastwards' sounds like some sort of US invasion. NATO is a mutual defence pact.
It is not mutual whatsoever.
Take a look at any chart (random example) of current wars/conflicts in which NATO are involved or have been recently and you'll see is about 85% US troops, 5% UK and a watered down mix from other countries. This point is further conflated by spending per country where we see that the US's investment is far greater than any other country. Now simply look at military personnel commitment per country and its apparent that its not really a mutual defense pact but a US led and funded army.ninja900 wrote:It hasn't been conclusively established that the US indeed made any such promise, and as I've previously stated, IMHO they have no right to give assurances on behalf of any other country.
What? It has been without any shadow of a doubt definitively confirmed numerous times by none other the US administration themselves.
It was the cornerstone of all the negotiations which led up to the fall of the Soviet Union and better relations between the US and Russia. Bush and Gorbachev implicitly agreed it as is known by all historians of the era.
Spiegel Online: "What the U.S. Secretary of State [James Baker III] said on Feb. 9, 1990 in the magnificent St. Catherine's Hall at the Kremlin is beyond dispute. There would be, in Baker's words, 'no extension of NATO's jurisdiction for forces of NATO one inch to the east,' provided the Soviets agreed to the NATO membership of a unified Germany. Moscow would think about it, Gorbachov said, but added: 'any extension of the zone of NATO is unacceptable.'"
Yet, as then-Russian President Dmitry Medvedev said in November 2009, Russia got
"none of the things that we were assured—namely that NATO would not expand endlessly eastwards and our interests would be continuously taken into consideration."
Spiegel Online wrote, "The political leaders of the day are now elderly gentlemen who don't necessarily always find it easy to remember exactly what happened back then." But the record shows, for example, that on Feb. 10, 1990, German Foreign Minister Hans-Dietrich Genscher told Soviet Foreign Minister Eduard Shevardnadze,
"We are aware that NATO membership for a unified Germany raises complicated questions. For us, however, one thing is certain: NATO will not expand to the east."
And because the conversion revolved mainly around East Germany, Genscher added explicitly:
"As far as the non-expansion of NATO is concerned, this also applies in general."Withdrawing from the ABM treaty was a mistake, but the potential effect is on the strategic balance of power (by potentially impairing the effectiveness of Russia's deterrent.) It doesn't really matter that these installations are in neighbouring countries, they are defensive in and of themselves, what matters is the effect on Russia's deterrent not where they're based.I don't agree with these installations btw.
Yeah you have understand how MAD worked when it was in effect after WW2 and right through (albeit in a far more complex way) and up to the present day.
Missile defense systems have thrown MAD out the window; any documentary on the early cold war will explain this concept well. Nowadays, by their very nature, missile defense installations also becomes bases for a military in general and the idea of a base which contains the very best modern military technology but which is restricted exclusively to defense is a little unbelievable.
Imagine the situation reversed - Russia starts a coalition of countries involved in encouraging the installation of military bases westwards? Would that stand?It is a 'poorly thought out question' using your exact phrase!
I said it as a statement - as a statement it made sense. Every country is entitled to legitimate security concerns on its own borders. No one would dispute that.
When you asked it as a question using those exact words and no more, or any other condition's, the direct answer was immediately obvious. Hence it was a poorly worded question.Substitute Britain for Russia and Ireland for Ukraine. We share each other's lineage and have strong traditional and cultural links. A great many British citizens live here and many more of British descent. Britain could claim that it subsidised our economy until independence (it certainly does in the North.) 'Their claim increases further' ??? - could Britain use that to intervene in a civil conflict in the Republic, in that scenario??
What went on before 1992 is of limited relevance because until then, Ukraine was effectively a colony of Moscow.
If Russia since 1992 has been subsidising Ukraine then they must have regarded this as in their strategic interest to do so. There are precious few altruists in the world, and neither is the US one.
No Britain and Ireland are not like Ukraine and Russia.
This argument is hopelessly poor.
You do not understand that eastern Ukraine is full of Ethnic Russians (this point will repeat itself here in your following comments). Britain doesn't subsidize our current economy - The Kiev Rus people started Moscow and then Kazan etc. until the Russian empire was built. Irish people did not begin the British empire. We don't share lineage in that way whatsoever. Nothing in your comparison is relevant.
As to your point about strategic interest - again you completely miss the relationship. the Ukraine, in part, was essentially Russian not by force but lineage and history.Loss of this land? It's not their land to lose!
If Ukraine is forced into NATO, put under control of the IMF, subject to international military bases at the command of the US (just think of what happening in Poland) then a cold war with Russia will reemerge in force (it is already happening). Russia's legitimate concern in this scenario is the security on its borders. If the US were to then label Russia as a rouge state (it is already imposing sanctions in that direction) ala IRAQ, North Korea, Afghanistan etc. then to this extent Russia will have lost this land. Of course Russia does not own this land but neither does the US. Russia are well aware of what a strategic disaster it would be for them to concede it. This is why we can conclude that this war was brought to them. This is why the comments (made in this thread) about Putin's Nazi expansionist ideals are so off base) this is a military conflict.Oh please. Not the 'fascists' line.
What do you mean.
It is well understood and without disagreement that supporters of, and some the actual parties themselves that make up the interim government in Ukraine harbor neo-nazi or fascist ideologies.In an answer to an inquiry made by the Left Party in August 2013, the German government assessed Svoboda as "a right-wing populist and nationalist party with some extreme right-wing positions." The report further states: "The opposition party in the newly elected parliament does not yet show obvious extreme right-wing tendencies in its parliamentary work. In the run-up to the parliamentarian elections in 2012 Svoboda revised its election manifesto and removed extreme right-wing statements."
But it is clear that Svoboda has good contacts to right-wing extremists in other countries. In May 2013 a Svoboda parliamentary delegation under the leadership of representative Michail Holovko paid a visit to the far-right NPD parliamentary faction in the German state of Saxony.
During the current upheaval, Svoboda members also made headlines with some chilling actions. In Kyiv, for example, the director of Ukraine's state broadcaster, Oleksandr Panteleymonov, was attacked by Svoboda representative Ihor Miroshnychenko because he was not satisfied with the broadcaster's coverage. The director was supposed to sign his own resignation. Afterwards, a cellphone video of the attack appeared on Youtube.
.En masse? or activists and provocateurs? It's not hundreds of thousands of demonstrators, is it? I believe that most people in this area do not want unrest
En masse as in civilians. Parts of Eastern Ukraine, like considerable parts of Crimea are very much a Russian territories (something which you don't seem to have understood). 17.3% of the entire Ukraine is made up of ethnic Russians mostly concentrated in the east
Mix ethnic Russians with other indigenous ethnicities who identify as being Russian and the figure could go considerably higher.I don't believe Russia wants war, but that they want to gain as much as they possibly can without it.
Not really. They want control of certain aspects of their backyard as they see it and with certain legitimacy.
Again they were happy with the February agreement of bilateral support for the Ukraine with the EU. It was US who scuppered the agreement.
The deal would have meant a degree of loss of their sphere of influence something which their ministers signed off on.0 -
Lads.... And Ladies.. Calm down will we...?
And to think I'm usually the banned person...
Seen this for the second time, and the beginning didn't half make me think of what's going on in Ukraine...
http://youtu.be/aqIHKWd9rSc0 -
SR, jimeryan22 - A+A is a discussion board where links to external sites are used to support an argument and not replace one.
Also, most posters here are unlikely to spend much time watching pro-Kremlin propaganda and paranoid conspiracy theorist videos.0 -
SR, jimeryan22 - A+A is a discussion board where links to external sites are used to support an argument and not replace one.
Also, most posters here are unlikely to spend much time watching pro-Kremlin propaganda and paranoid conspiracy theorist videos.
No1.. I've posted no links.. Since you took my others off without so much a a friendly word..
No2... You don't speak for most posters I'm afraid.. Only yourself0 -
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SR, jimeryan22 - A+A is a discussion board where links to external sites are used to support an argument and not replace one.
Also, most posters here are unlikely to spend much time watching pro-Kremlin propaganda and paranoid conspiracy theorist videos.
Is there dikc in your head?! Every video or text against today's regime in Ukraine and its masters in Washington and Bruxelles you call pro-Kremlin propaganda and when it's against South-East and Moscow - it's 100% truth? And it's you who has brains to talk about "being paranoid"?!
Ukranians marching with fascist slogans, with fascist signs, with portraits of stepan bandera and roman shukhevich, two fascists, responsible for killing people, partisans, soviet soldiers, responsible for Volyn massacre of Poles, ukranians marching with torches like german fascists did in 30s - this is Kremlin made propaganda? All these people are actors paid by Kremlin?
Every poster will decide himself without you whether watch videos or no. You don't make decisions for others.0 -
Freedom of speech, freedom to have different opinion, freedom of blah-blah-blah......)))
I have posted videos on crisis in Ukraine - deleted them. And not for the first time.
I will use this as great example of freedom of speech lesson from West.0 -
S.R. taking a short holiday for incivility.
Consider yourself drinking in the last chance saloon on your return.0 -
jimeryan22 wrote: »No1.. I've posted no links.. Since you took my others off without so much a a friendly word..
No2... You don't speak for most posters I'm afraid.. Only yourself
In this case, I rather think he does. Most of us want to hear both sides without bias and/or paranoid conspiracy theories which tend to destroy promising debate.0 -
In this case, I rather think he does. Most of us want to hear both sides without bias and/or paranoid conspiracy theories which tend to destroy promising debate.
Another person speaking for others.. Well that's 2 so far..
The only thing that destroys debate, is people starting personal veiled stabs at other because of the fact they don't agree with what someone might be saying, that is not debate.. Also to just slap the conspiracy tag on everything one doesn't agree too is also not debating And no, you's don't speak for everybody else0 -
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jimeryan22 wrote: »Another person speaking for others.. Well that's 2 so far..
The only thing that destroys debate, is people starting personal veiled stabs at other because of the fact they don't agree with what someone might be saying, that is not debate.. Also to just slap the conspiracy tag on everything one doesn't agree too is also not debating And no, you's don't speak for everybody else
I speak for myself. The Ukraine situation is very messy & I'm not blind to the various far right elements. On both sides. But I refuse to buy into Russian propaganda. Or American, fwiw.0 -
I speak for myself. The Ukraine situation is very messy & I'm not blind to the various far right elements. On both sides. But I refuse to buy into Russian propaganda. Or American, fwiw.
So there you go.. Your now saying what I've been saying through the whole thread... Face it... All governments are corrupt and the problem.. Governments no longer representative of the masses but the banks and corporate interests.... Bank bail outs..? Who ended up paying for it..? Us...
Who went to jail..? None of them..
This destabilising country's, in order to rape them for their natural resources etc, will continue as long as people are dumb enough to believe the propaganda..0 -
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Russian Kids Must Prove 'Patriotism' to Graduate High School
http://www.themoscowtimes.com/news/article/russian-kids-must-prove-patriotism-to-graduate-high-school/503614.html
The Moscow Times, btw, is one of Russia's few English-language media outlets and like it's southern cousin, The Kyiv Post, it's liberal and generally reliable.Moscow Times wrote:Here is a list of some things that Russia now wants its high-school students to demonstrate in order to graduate: self-identification as a Russian citizen, responsibility to the motherland and respect for "traditional" values. The Education and Science Ministry has drafted an order that expanding the scope of essential high-school education beyond the "basic" subjects — such as language, literature and math — to include "personal results" that the student must achieve, Izvestia reported Thursday.
The personal results, in addition to the list above, include patriotism, knowledge of the national anthem, respect for Russia's people, and pride for one's home region, the report said. "The [educational] standard is firmly oriented toward building the personal traits of the graduate, who must not only acquire knowledge about certain subjects, but also be formed as a complete and full-fledged individual," a spokesperson for the Education and Science Ministry was quoted as saying.
The ministry's "portrait of the Russian school student" also lists "anti-corruption views," "ecological thinking" and skills in online communication technologies among desirable traits, Izvestia reported. Corruption has been rampant under President Vladimir Putin's rule, with Russia coming in 127th in Transparency International ranking last year, a place it shared with such countries as Nicaragua, Gambia and Comoros.
Meanwhile, as the Russian government has been increasingly blocking access to websites that criticize its policies, it appears likely that students would be expected to demonstrate their online skills by taking to the more acceptable segments of the Internet to communicate "patriotic" views. Schoolchildren would also be expected to demonstrate their respect for "traditional values," a term by which Russia usually designates its dislike of Western liberal ideas and social freedoms such as gay rights.
The ministry order does, however, include encouraging "tolerance" in students, the report said, though it did not specify what areas that tolerance should extend to. "Patriotism" and character-building were essential parts of the Soviet school system, with students required to be familiar with the teachings of founder Vladimir Lenin and the platform of the Communist Party, and be able to describe international news developments in a language that clearly showed their pro-Soviet sympathies. But that ended with the 1991 Soviet collapse.
A co-chairman of the Russian Teachers' Union, Andrei Demidov, appeared skeptical about Russia's new ideas about improving "standards" for students' views, the report said. "We have standards everywhere, and now they have even got around to schoolchildren," he was quoted as saying.
The Moscow Times is also one of the few remaining media outlets which hasn't been taken over by the Kremlin, probably since it reports in English and few Russians speak English well enough to read it. I can't help but wonder if its days are numbered though.0 -
Russian Kids Must Prove 'Patriotism' to Graduate High School
http://www.themoscowtimes.com/news/article/russian-kids-must-prove-patriotism-to-graduate-high-school/503614.html
The Moscow Times, btw, is one of Russia's few English-language media outlets and like it's southern cousin, The Kyiv Post, it's liberal and generally reliable.
The Moscow Times is also one of the few remaining media outlets which hasn't been taken over by the Kremlin, probably since it reports in English and few Russians speak English well enough to read it. I can't help but wonder if its days are numbered though.
Is Moscow Times "generally reliable" because it's liberal?0 -
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Brian Shanahan wrote: »No it's generally reliable because it is not under the paws of a fascist dictatorship, unlike most Russian newspapers.
If you concerned about dictatorship then don't read american and british newspapers.
And generally, don't use words the meanings of which you don't know. In gas-chamber of Buchenwald you would learn for sure what fascist dictatorship really is. Right now you just sound like someone who swallowed FOX channel.0 -
Lads, what you think about Boeing shot down by ukranian "freedom from Putin" fighters?
Very strange that plane was shot down when ukranian forces are trapped near russian border and are being destroyed day by day, isn't it?0 -
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Probably the wrong thread for that last post of mine - hazards of belief would have been more appropriate.
I've been meaning to post a follow up here for a while, but never quite got around to it as I've been tied up with the Real World and in any case, the fast pace of this conflict, and the many fronts upon which it's being fought, means that almost anything is out of date as soon as it's posted.
The twitterverse went into overdrive around an hour after that posting yesterday - initially slowly with the Russian-backed militias issuing a few chest-thumping claims that they'd shot down a Ukrainian cargo plane, then with a deluge of information about the missing flight and the entire world, it sometimes appeared, pointing the finger straight at the Kremlin's men and their freshly-deleted, but then helpfully retrieved, social network posts.
As ever, it's impossible to know where this conflict is going. Reliable information is hard to come by and almost impossible to verify. The Russian-controlled state media continue to lead the way in a dark, sick propaganda war in which stories range from the diseased (MH17 was stuffed with old corpses) to, well, I don't know what - the uncorroborated, now-retracted story of toddler crucified by Ukrainian troops as related by some random woman. Yet another RT "reporter" has abandoned the outlet, claiming that her work in RT amounted to well-financed deceit. Examiner.com maintains a moderately reliable list of debunked Russian stories from Ukraine - including the helicopter one which SR posted above (turns out the helicopter was filmed some years ago in Africa). And the Interpreter Magazine has some useful pointers and translations too.
Back in the real world though, Putin is now in the position of having initiated and sustained a war, but one which is rapidly becoming politically unsustainable. In addition to the pressure he's under from the international community, he's under additional pressure at home from the nationalist lunatics whom he's been inflaming, with Nazi-level propaganda, to get them to volunteer to fight in Ukraine. Which they have done, seemingly in their thousands, but whom he may well choose to abandon, thereby potentially creating a fifth column which could become a direct threat to him, apart from the threat they continue to pose to Ukraine, the rest of Europe and the rest of the world. His call today for a truce may lead somewhere, or it may not, but one way or another, the cards are all in the worse place possible - Putin's greasy hands.0 -
If you concerned about dictatorship then don't read american and british newspapers.
And generally, don't use words the meanings of which you don't know. In gas-chamber of Buchenwald you would learn for sure what fascist dictatorship really is. Right now you just sound like someone who swallowed FOX channel.
You are seriously lecturing me on what a fascist dictatorship is, right when you are swallowing the propoganda of a homophobic, anti-semetic, expansionist and racist dictatorial regime which bears close resemblance to fascist Italy and has close ties (in that it funds and exempts from the law) neo-Nazi groups which take their inspiration from the kind of people who gassed and shot their grandparents?
It's not worth my while talking to you.0 -
Seems remarkably similar to the traditional raising of the flag every morning in US schools, accompanied by the mandatory "I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States..."Russian Kids Must Prove 'Patriotism' to Graduate High School.
But you have a point, in that there is a definite increase in nationalism and a corresponding decrease in multiculturalism in all the former Soviet Union countries since it's break-up.
This is only to be expected, as I don't think multiculturalism can ever succeed in a nation state. Our neighbours in Britain are starting to realise this. The problem is one of divided loyalties. For example, if the State funds schools which indoctrinate kids from one culture with "traditional British values" and simultaneously the kids of another culture with "Islamic values" (which might even include the desirability of replacing the current State with one operating under Sharia law) then it is entirely predictable that these two sets of kids will meet later on the battlefield when they grown up.
IMO Russia is fully justified in wanting to avoid this scenario, given their current incarnation as a nation state.
The USA has never really been multicultural, they have always espoused the "melting pot" theory, hence the allegiance to the flag, shared state schools for all, and no support for minority languages. The main difference being that they are more open to the direction this melded culture takes them in, unlike both UK and Russia which are more rooted in their historical cultures.
As for Ireland, well there is no actual plan, we'll just play it by ear :pac:0 -
Yatsenyuk says that those who demands pensions, social payments and wages are agents of FSB.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t9TvlrXTQGA
Is this last stage of schizophrenia or there is another one?0 -
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Seems remarkably similar to the traditional raising of the flag every morning in US schools, accompanied by the mandatory "I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States..."
But you have a point, in that there is a definite increase in nationalism and a corresponding decrease in multiculturalism in all the former Soviet Union countries since it's break-up.
This is only to be expected, as I don't think multiculturalism can ever succeed in a nation state. Our neighbours in Britain are starting to realise this. The problem is one of divided loyalties. For example, if the State funds schools which indoctrinate kids from one culture with "traditional British values" and simultaneously the kids of another culture with "Islamic values" (which might even include the desirability of replacing the current State with one operating under Sharia law) then it is entirely predictable that these two sets of kids will meet later on the battlefield when they grown up.
IMO Russia is fully justified in wanting to avoid this scenario, given their current incarnation as a nation state.
The USA has never really been multicultural, they have always espoused the "melting pot" theory, hence the allegiance to the flag, shared state schools for all, and no support for minority languages. The main difference being that they are more open to the direction this melded culture takes them in, unlike both UK and Russia which are more rooted in their historical cultures.
As for Ireland, well there is no actual plan, we'll just play it by ear :pac:
Good one!
Multiculturalism is EVIL.0 -
Brian Shanahan wrote: »You are seriously lecturing me on what a fascist dictatorship is, right when you are swallowing the propoganda of a homophobic, anti-semetic, expansionist and racist dictatorial regime which bears close resemblance to fascist Italy and has close ties (in that it funds and exempts from the law) neo-Nazi groups which take their inspiration from the kind of people who gassed and shot their grandparents?
It's not worth my while talking to you.
Brian, why can't I lecture you? Are you God?
Reading your posts I have to say that I must lecture you because you compare propaganda with gas-chamber.
P.S. Are you familiar with Brendan Shanahan?0 -
https://imageshack.com/i/ez3afd46j
Terrorists of South East brutally shot down ukrainian planes that peacefully bomb their (terrorists') cities.0 -
Lads, what you think about Boeing shot down by ukranian "freedom from Putin" fighters?
You know, my wife knew people on that plane - a couple and their two young sons.
Go to hell and take Putin with you.Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.
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Hotblack Desiato wrote: »You know, my wife knew people on that plane - a couple and their two young sons.
Go to hell and take Putin with you.
So you have evidence that Putin shot plane down? If you don't then stop your mad barking, go to hell and take obama, nooland, kerry, poroshenko etc.0
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