Claim: 'Kyiv is the mother of all Russian Cities'

S.R. wrote: »

I will tell you this one, there are gay parades, gays can marry, can adopt kids, now people have to forget words "mother" and "father" and use instead "parent 1" and "parent 2" etc., so don't worry - legalization of pedophilia and incest is not far away.

Spoken like one of Putin's most ardent straight-armed-saluters.

Are you that blind to Putin's homophobia? He's CONFLATING HOMOSEXUALITY WITH PAEDOPHILIA.

There are a remarkable amount of social media propaganda posts after every article or op-ed on nearly every large news websites all with names apparently from the country in which the paper is based. Russian propaganda has gone into major global overdrive.

That's precisely the tone!

Brian Shanahan wrote: »

One thing I learned from tv is that Spock always has the answer.

Except when it's lizard!

(Or paper!)

This is one of the most utterly horrendous acts in memory and if the Russian military are behind this either directly or indirectly (by aiding rebels) then I hope this leads to or causes the beginning of Putin's exit and something better for Russia.

That being said one of the most overlooked questions right now is why the flight was in that area. A comparison of the 10 previous show them all on different paths outside the effective warzone and no flight zone.



Internationally and politically this is an absolute disaster for Russia. I don't agree with most here that they (Russia) were exclusively or even mostly to blame for the recent conflicts - you can read my posts in this thread if unfamiliar with those arguments (I essentially repeat those of Stephen Cohen btw) but this incident will leave them exposed to mounting international pressure to withdraw border troops and assist in cleaning up the rebel strongholds in eastern Ukraine. This may sound like a good thing but in reality it will only make for further posturing and stand offs between NATO and Russia - a real worry because miscalculations in such standoffs are pretty much the only thing that could initiate a major war.

The propaganda as Robin referred to (and had quite a good overview also) a few pages is indeed rife in Russia but I am inclined to agree more with Recedites post above that no real evidence has been presented and yet a definitive conclusion has been made in world's media.

What has been presented are speculations that rebels stole what some people are somehow positively identifying as a particular type of BUK capable of downing aircraft of heights up to 72,000 ft. There is definitely mixed reports of its complexity in operation - the Sydney Times references experts that say operators would've needed extensive training . This article from Janes backs that claim up

If this is the case it indicates military personnel rather than rebels as apparently there would have required access to a radar installation also as despite the fact the BUK's inbuilt radar can be used in stand alone mode this is apparently much more difficult (although certainly a possibility and more likely one that could have brought about such a tragedy) as the team of trained personnel that it would normally take to operate the BUK and corresponding components (see below) would have almost certainly have identified the aircraft as civilian.

When fielded, a Buk firing battery consists of:

- the 9S18M1Target Acquisition Radar used to acquire potential aerial targets and transmit their position and tracks;

- the 9S470M1 Command Post (CP) vehicle (contains the missile battery's data display and control system; digital fire-control computer, which assigns targets to individual launchers; and computes the engagement); and

- one or more 9A310M1S launchers each armed with four radar-guided missiles

Going by the information above it appears more credible that trained military (ex military rebels?) personnel carried out the strike and it would appear more likely at this stage that these military personnel were Russian. It seems that they didn't bother to identify the craft as it was over restricted airspace, and were limited to only radar, the IFF as mentioned Janes article was also inadeqaute, and so we can only imagine they presumed it was a large Ukrainian military cargo, conversely however they would have, apparently, known its speed and indeed size so two serious questions remain.

- Why was the plane in that area.
- Why did trained personnel not identity the craft

A truly revolting event and I hope somehow there is some justice for the victims families as whoever is behind this, whether it was accident or not, it has to be treated as an act of terrorism and a crime against humanity.

recedite wrote: »

From your link

So if the separatists had their own aircraft, the missile system could be programmed to detect a transponder signal from those aircraft as "friendly". As they have no aircraft, this particular feature is redundant.

No, I did read that, point was that there were other identifying factors and protocols that may have undertaken if it was a trained crew - and as experts as now saying it would've needed to have been a trained crew the point about non identification lingers on somewhat. In the case of poorly trained rebels or a solo operator the point is less demanding.

recedite wrote:

Certainly it was "a crime against humanity", but not necessarily "an act of terrorism". If it was a "collateral damage" incident, then there may well be "negligence" involved on behalf of those who fired the weapon, and/or those who supplied it to them, and/or those who directed the plane into the war zone.

Well I agree somewhat but its really a technicality. Act of war, act of terrorism it doesn't matter; it's certainly not reducible to negligence (I know you didn't mean to implicitly state it was 'just negligence but we really have to use more appropriate terminology when describing such barbarism).