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Claim: 'Kyiv is the mother of all Russian Cities'

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    #662
    Icepick
    Registered Users Posts: 2,454 ✭✭✭Icepick


    You are feeding a troll spreading Russian propaganda.


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    #663
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,403 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    jimeryan22 wrote: »
    No no. We have hearsay, like said before.. Not facts.. Firstly, show me these facts.. Please do
    You ignored facts yesterday when you accepted that Nuland's phonecall did not say what you said it said, but despite that, you persisted in claiming that the US and EU had interfered in the sovereign affairs another state (while -- separate issue -- ignoring the far greater offence that Russia is committing in, for example, supplying men and weapons to fight in East Ukraine, has worked to block legitimate elections from taking place, has annexed Crimea etc, etc, etc).

    Are you going to demand facts here too, but subsequently choose to ignore them? If you are, then that constitutes trolling which is a cardable/bannable offence.


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    #664
    Turtwig
    Registered Users Posts: 26,578 ✭✭✭✭Turtwig


    Icepick wrote: »
    You are feeding a troll spreading Russian propaganda.

    If you wish to accuse someone of being a troll, do it via reporting their posts or PM the mod team. Posting it in thread is not appropriate.

    Thanks,


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    #665
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    What I'm saying is that, despite several people claiming that MH17 flew an unusual route on the 17th, and citing flightaware as a source, flightaware data doesn't appear to support this claim.
    You have to admit that it was diverted to fly over the conflict zone at Donetsk, and that its original flight plan was to overfly much further south and at higher altitude.
    If the claim that there was also a Ukrainian military jet in the vicinity turned out to be true, I think the suspicion would not neccessarily be that the fighter shot down the passenger plane. It would be that military planes were using foreign commercial aircraft as cover when flying into the conflict zone.


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    #666
    jimeryan22
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,170 ✭✭✭jimeryan22


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    Planes don't talk to each other. Planes talk to ATC, and those conversations are recorded.

    Only ATC..? Planes don't communicate with each other at all...??


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    #667
    jimeryan22
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,170 ✭✭✭jimeryan22


    robindch wrote: »
    You ignored facts yesterday when you accepted that Nuland's phonecall did not say what you said it said, but despite that, you persisted in claiming that the US and EU had interfered in the sovereign affairs another state (while -- separate issue -- ignoring the far greater offence that Russia is committing in, for example, supplying men and weapons to fight in East Ukraine, has worked to block legitimate elections from taking place, has annexed Crimea etc, etc, etc).

    Are you going to demand facts here too, but subsequently choose to ignore them? If you are, then that constitutes trolling which is a cardable/bannable offence.

    I did not concede yesterday about Nulands call... I agreed that it wasn't worded as you wanted..
    But you keep throwing out troll, conspiracy theorist nonscence... Really it's you who should be carded or banned.. As you and a couple of others just attack attack attack when something is said you don't like or disagree with... Which is not my problem
    Also. I'm yet to see you provide any evidence of Russia giving seperatists AA equip and the like that your so sure they have... Well let's see it..?


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    #668
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,793 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    recedite wrote: »
    You have to admit that it was diverted to fly over the conflict zone at Donetsk, and that its original flight plan was to overfly much further south and at higher altitude.
    I haven't seen its original flight plan. If you have a link to it, that would be good. What I'm arguing with is the assertion that flightaware shows a much more southerly track for the previous day, which it doesn't.
    jimeryan22 wrote: »
    Only ATC..? Planes don't communicate with each other at all...??
    Pilots listen to each others' conversations with ATC, but radio procedure dictates that all conversations are air-to-ground.


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    #669
    jimeryan22
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,170 ✭✭✭jimeryan22


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    I haven't seen its original flight plan. If you have a link to it, that would be good. What I'm arguing with is the assertion that flightaware shows a much more southerly track for the previous day, which it doesn't.

    Pilots listen to each others' conversations with ATC, but radio procedure dictates that all conversations are air-to-ground.

    And so they can only hear each other and not talk to each other..?
    So that's basically what I was asking you in the first place.. Thank you finally


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    #670
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,403 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    As an aside, here's the latest in from Graham Phillips. For anybody who's not heard of him - he's a young guy from the UK who carved a little niche for himself on Russian media as one of the few westerners actively reporting from Eastern Ukraine during the ongoing conflict. Unfortunately, while occasionally interesting, his camera-verité reporting style was pointedly biased and entirely supportive of the Russian government. And while he shouldn't have been, he was turfed out of the country a month or two ago by the authorities in Kiev. He's back again now and continuing much as before. Here he is in Slavyansk, but this time, without the support of Russian-backed gunmen:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EJ0ipZ1RW84

    He's asking some randomers whether all's ok (yes), whether either of them voted in the referendum (no, both are for Ukraine), but didn't everybody vote in the referendum (no, bloody strange referendum where they stuffed the boxes with photocopies, innit?), what about the Ukrainian army shooting at the city and the people (no, 90% of the region had no conflict), were the Ukrainian army shooting people (no, they were defending their territory, they were defending their country and their people), what about them shooting children (no, they didn't do that; glory to Ukraine!), uh, ok, goodbye (is that the end? not a successful interview, eh?).

    A vox pop is a cheap form of journalism and he certainly gets himself pwn'd here, but it is quite indicative of the level of journalism that the Russians employ -- cheap, pushy and shoddy.

    FWIW, his Russian is dreadful and his accent grates as badly as Sean Connery's in the Hunt for Red October.


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    #671
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    I haven't seen its original flight plan. If you have a link to it, that would be good. What I'm arguing with is the assertion that flightaware shows a much more southerly track for the previous day, which it doesn't.
    I think much of the confusion stems from the blue dashed line shown on this flightaware graphic.
    It appears to represent the original flight plan and/or typical previous flights, but they do not actually label what it is. As you pointed out, most previous flights did overfly Donetsk. So just from looking at the ill fated flight path as shown, the data could equally be interpreted to mean that the pilot had strayed further south than intended, and was correcting by going north.
    Without knowing what the original plan was, and without the transcripts of conversation with air traffic control, we can't say.


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    #672
    Icepick
    Registered Users Posts: 2,454 ✭✭✭Icepick


    Turtwig wrote: »
    If you wish to accuse someone of being a troll, do it via reporting their posts or PM the mod team. Posting it in thread is not appropriate.

    Thanks,
    Just general advice.


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    #673
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,793 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    recedite wrote: »
    I think much of the confusion stems from the blue dashed line shown on this flightaware graphic.
    Much of the confusion stems from the fact that whenever I follow that link (which stevejazzx has previously posted) I get this:

    mh17-4.png

    Can you post the actual image that's being referenced?
    It appears to represent the original flight plan and/or typical previous flights, but they do not actually label what it is. As you pointed out, most previous flights did overfly Donetsk. So just from looking at the ill fated flight path as shown, the data could equally be interpreted to mean that the pilot had strayed further south than intended, and was correcting by going north.
    Without knowing what the original plan was, and without the transcripts of conversation with air traffic control, we can't say.
    Yup. That's pretty much been my point all along.


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    #674
    Brian Shanahan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,232 ✭✭✭Brian Shanahan


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    Hmmmm, what?

    He's just parroting the black propoganda of the state controlled media of the Russian dictatorship, trying to make out that either a) the flight was a deliberate target, or b) that the crash was faked as a US black flag operation.


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    #675
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    Can you post the actual image that's being referenced?
    Here....
    MAS17-1.png


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    #676
    Brian Shanahan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,232 ✭✭✭Brian Shanahan


    robindch wrote: »
    I completely agree. The vast majority of the current data, incompletely reliable and all as it is, points largely in one direction and looking forward, I don't expect that this is going to change as more evidence arrives in from the (damaged) crash site and equipment remains, from ATC and other external sources, from the (potentially interfered-with) black boxes, the bodies of the dead and so on.

    We have one huge piece of evidence before we even get any of the plane or the bodies of the victims, the fact that there is massive tampering of the evidence going on at the crash site?

    Why would the "eastern Ukrainian freedom fighters" (far more likely to be Russian army regulars and state sponsored neo-Nazi skinhead goons than actual residents of eastern Ukraine) be destroying the evidence if they had not some criminal activities (namely the murder of 290 civilians) to hide?


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    #677
    Corkfeen
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,940 ✭✭✭Corkfeen


    Many of the Russian public appear to view Russia as responsible as they gathered outside of the Dutch embassy.
    Another message reads: "We are afraid, we are ashamed, we are in mourning."
    While the official Russian position is that Russia played no role and has no responsibility for the crash, what's striking in many of the notes is the use of the phrase "forgive us."
    The messages give a sense that the people who have left them do feel that Russia has an element of responsibility in what is playing out in eastern Ukraine.
    One note reads, in English, "Excuse us, please, if you can. Sorry! Russia, Moscow."
    Paying his condolences at the embassy, Muscovite Yuri Yemshanov told CNN it was "difficult to recognize that our country could be involved in this accident."
    Everyday items tell powerful story
    "I think there's lot of proof that we're in closer relations and connections with the separatists in Ukraine. I suppose it's clearly understood that we support them by providing weapons, and so I think it doesn't matter who launched that rocket. Just because we're supporting terrorists, we're involved."
    http://edition.cnn.com/2014/07/21/world/europe/ukraine-malaysia-moscow-embassy/index.html?hpt=hp_t1


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    #678
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    Brian Shanahan wrote: »
    the fact that there is massive tampering of the evidence going on at the crash site?
    That is a little unfair.
    First of all the western journalists complained because they themselves were allowed onto the site, and nothing was "secured".
    Then local militia took the black box away, stored it securely (there is no evidence of any "tampering" with the data in it at the moment, despite the rantings of Poroshenko). As soon as the Malaysian crash investigators arrived, it was given to them.

    When the bodies were left lying there, people complained. When they were removed and refrigerated, people complained. As soon as the Dutch contingent arrived, they were given charge of the bodies and the train carrying them departed. And all this in a war zone not served by the normal emergency services. What more do people expect?


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    #679
    jimeryan22
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,170 ✭✭✭jimeryan22


    Brian Shanahan wrote: »
    We have one huge piece of evidence before we even get any of the plane or the bodies of the victims, the fact that there is massive tampering of the evidence going on at the crash site?

    Why would the "eastern Ukrainian freedom fighters" (far more likely to be Russian army regulars and state sponsored neo-Nazi skinhead goons than actual residents of eastern Ukraine) be destroying the evidence if they had not some criminal activities (namely the murder of 290 civilians) to hide?

    And your saying others are spitting out state propaganda...? Don't make laugh talking out of the obvious....
    Why would Russia risk ww3 on herself Doing something so stupid...?

    Where is this evidence...? Show this evidence that you above everybody else in the world seem to have..?


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    #680
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,793 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    recedite wrote: »
    Here....
    MAS17-1.png

    Still broken. I can't seem to load images from commercial.flightaware.com for some reason.


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    #681
    Corkfeen
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,940 ✭✭✭Corkfeen


    jimeryan22 wrote: »
    And your saying others are spitting out state propaganda...? Don't make laugh talking out of the obvious....
    Why would Russia risk ww3 on herself Doing something so stupid...?

    Where is this evidence...? Show this evidence that you above everybody else in the world seem to have..?

    Well the separatists are believed to have cut into the craft which is tampering with evidence.
    http://www.smh.com.au/world/mh17-wreckage-cut-into-osce-spokesman-20140722-zvun3.html

    Then there's the fact that they had the flight recorder in their possession for a while. Looting corpses by separatists was allowed. Russians domestically are even of the opinion that Russia is backing the separatists. The most likely suppliers of the launcher is Russia.

    Then we've got this suspiciously large device being shipped back into Russia. Plus all those recordings and the fact they had plenty of activity in the zone. But oh no, false flag and poor Russia is innocent.
    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/malaysia-airlines-mh17-crash-blogger-captures-footage-showing-buk-missile-launcher-that-shot-down-jet-now-back-in-russia-9618115.html

    Just as an example, back in the eighties Russia almost started a world war over some bad radar data which would have started a nuclear war. Foolish decisions aren't new in foreign policy and arming separatists is a very risky thing which they have been engaging in for a fair bit.


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    #682
    jimeryan22
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,170 ✭✭✭jimeryan22


    Corkfeen wrote: »
    Well the separatists are believed to have cut into the craft which is tampering with evidence.
    http://www.smh.com.au/world/mh17-wreckage-cut-into-osce-spokesman-20140722-zvun3.html

    Then there's the fact that they had the flight recorder in their possession for a while. Looting corpses by separatists was allowed. Russians domestically are even of the opinion that Russia is backing the separatists. The most likely suppliers of the launcher is Russia.

    Then we've got this suspiciously large device being shipped back into Russia. Plus all those recordings and the fact they had plenty of activity in the zone. But oh no, false flag and poor Russia is innocent.
    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/malaysia-airlines-mh17-crash-blogger-captures-footage-showing-buk-missile-launcher-that-shot-down-jet-now-back-in-russia-9618115.html

    Just as an example, back in the eighties Russia almost started a world war over some bad radar data which would have started a nuclear war. Foolish decisions aren't new in foreign policy and arming separatists is a very risky thing which they have been engaging in for a fair bit.

    There's nobody around here to my knowledge saying poor old Russia...
    In your first article the guy says "it appears" which is hearsay as far as I'm concerned until crash investigators have done the business. Not one of the observers who is obviously not a crash expert... Your second article is some bloggers.. So in no way a bible fact proof of anything either..
    Either way.. There's no concrete facts of Russia being "at fault" for this tragady... I would hope not.. As then no doubt war would be round the corner.. Until there's real proof. I can't see how blowing a passenger plane out of the sky helps Russia in anyway shape or form...


  • Options
    #683
    Corkfeen
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,940 ✭✭✭Corkfeen


    Nobody has claimed that Russia intentionally wanted to take down a passenger plane..


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    #684
    jimeryan22
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,170 ✭✭✭jimeryan22


    Corkfeen wrote: »
    Nobody has claimed that Russia intentionally wanted to take down a passenger plane..

    No..? So guilty by backing separatists then...? That's the rhetoric here and in the media since the weekend...


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    #685
    Corkfeen
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,940 ✭✭✭Corkfeen


    jimeryan22 wrote: »
    No..? So guilty by backing separatists then...? That's the rhetoric here and in the media since the weekend...

    Yes guilty by backing separatists with the range to hit a passenger plane. Something that they should not have had.


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    #686
    jimeryan22
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,170 ✭✭✭jimeryan22


    Corkfeen wrote: »
    Yes guilty by backing separatists with the range to hit a passenger plane. Something that they should not have had.

    But that is not proven


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    #687
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 34,351 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    Pilots listen to each others' conversations with ATC, but radio procedure dictates that all conversations are air-to-ground.

    Civil airliners use VHF radios, they can't hear military UHF communications.

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



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    #688
    Brian Shanahan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,232 ✭✭✭Brian Shanahan


    Corkfeen wrote: »
    Just as an example, back in the eighties Russia almost started a world war over some bad radar data which would have started a nuclear war. Foolish decisions aren't new in foreign policy and arming separatists is a very risky thing which they have been engaging in for a fair bit.

    Oh yes, the wandering bear incident. It gets worse, in 1983 the Communist Party's politburo took the annual Able Archer training manoeuvres in Western Europe as a prelude to an attack (despite the fact that they happened the same time every year and were well flagged as training manouvres) and authorised a preemptory ICBM strike. According to some reports the only thing stopping us existing in the Fallout universe right now was that the code access terminal went on the fritz and by the time it was fixed NATO had realised that the Russian paranoia was spiking too high and called of the exercises.


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    #689
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,793 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    Hotblack Desiato wrote: »
    Civil airliners use VHF radios, they can't hear military UHF communications.

    Military aircraft in controlled airspace are (as I understand it) required to communicate with civilian ATC. I've witnessed comms between an Air Corps helicopter and the tower I was talking to.


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    #690
    jimeryan22
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,170 ✭✭✭jimeryan22


    Latest American intelligence suggests "no direct link between Russia and downed flight". Sky news


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    #691
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    Brian Shanahan wrote: »
    Oh yes, the wandering bear incident. It gets worse, in 1983 the Communist Party's politburo.....
    The wandering bear incident was an American mistake, not a Soviet one.


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