Gay Cake Controversy!

Harry Palmr · 08-07-2014 10:09am #1

A Northern Ireland bakery was asked to create a cake with a pro-gay marriage message featuring Bert and Ernie (who as far as I know are not gay!) the bakery refused as it went against the religious views of the owner, the people who ordered the cake reported the bakery to the Equality Commission who have informed the bakers that they are now open to prosecution.

They even made a cake video to explain their position.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NFqxdiVvrx0

http://www.rte.ie/news/2014/0708/629217-gay-marriage-cake/

Has the world gone mad?

lazygal · 08-07-2014 10:11am

Now I know which bakery to avoid in that neck of the woods. WTF is a bakery run on Christian values anyway?

Hande hoche! · 08-07-2014 10:12am

Didn't something near identical happen in the U.S.?

08-07-2014 10:12am

What a load of sh!te
A LGBT activist targetted a christian bakery.
It's a CAKE

iDave · 08-07-2014 10:12am

Harry Palmr wrote: »

Has the world gone mad?

Yes, but that's not a recent development.

Caliden · 08-07-2014 10:14am

If they were so against it why didn't they just make it but hide a lump of poo in the middle?

Hande hoche! · 08-07-2014 10:15am

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/02/04/aaron-klein-oregon-bakery-owner-lesbian-wedding-cake_n_2615563.html

https://www.aclu.org/lgbt-rights/charlie-craig-and-david-mullins-v-masterpiece-cakeshop

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/11/14/iowa-wedding-cake-lesbian-couple_n_1092789.html

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/howaboutthat/3797823/Adolf-Hitler-denied-his-birthday-cake.html

Seems to have happened a few times.

Lucifer MorningStar · 08-07-2014 10:16am

Cake and Sodomy FTW!

wazky · 08-07-2014 10:16am

What a pavlova about nothing.

floggg · 08-07-2014 10:17am

Tell me OP would you be outraged if the bakery refused to make a cake for a black family?

If not, what's the difference?

lazygal · 08-07-2014 10:19am

floggg wrote: »

Tell me OP would you be outraged if the bakery refused to make a cake for a black family?

If not, what's the difference?

Or a civil wedding rather than a church wedding cake. Or a naming ceremony instead of a christening. I remember Jesus saying something about cake makers needing to discriminate against minority groups.

Caliden · 08-07-2014 10:19am

floggg wrote: »

Tell me OP would you be outraged if the bakery refused to make a cake for a black family?

If not, what's the difference?

What about a cake with a big black willy on it? Could they refuse then ?

08-07-2014 10:19am

floggg wrote: »

Tell me OP would you be outraged if the bakery refused to make a cake for a black family?

If not, what's the difference?

I'd be annoyed if a black bakery owner couldn't refuse custom to white harassers. Or the latest irish branch of the kkk

Donkey Oaty · 08-07-2014 10:20am

Maybe it was Bert they objected to rather than the message.

He has serious form.

Dave0301 · 08-07-2014 10:20am

Funny that this cake company can be open to persecution when it takes a stance on religious grounds, yet other religious workers can refuse to sell alcohol or meat products based on their religion.

I Heart Internet · 08-07-2014 10:20am

floggg wrote: »

Tell me OP would you be outraged if the bakery refused to make a cake for a black family?

If not, what's the difference?

A black family is not a political campaign.

A gay person or family is not a political campaign.

A campaign poster/cake for gay marriage is a political campaign.

A business should have the right to decline business it doesn't want, in particular for political campaigns it doesn't wish to be involved in.

guttenberg · 08-07-2014 10:20am

You would think they would of had the brains to use copyright infringement to cover themselves for refusing to make it. . .

lazygal · 08-07-2014 10:22am

I Heart Internet wrote: »

A black family is not a political campaign.

A gay person or family is not a political campaign.

A campaign poster/cake for gay marriage is a political campaign.

A business should have the right to decline business it doesn't want, in particular for political campaigns it doesn't wish to be involved in.

What would Jesus the cake maker do? Are civil rights just political campaigns now?

Hande hoche! · 08-07-2014 10:22am

Perhaps the baker was vary of Sesame Street's copyright?

08-07-2014 10:23am

lazygal wrote: »

What would Jesus the cake maker do? Are civil rights just political campaigns now?

If the cake was ordered by an activist for a campaign what else is it

Harry Palmr · 08-07-2014 10:23am

floggg wrote: »

Tell me OP would you be outraged if the bakery refused to make a cake for a black family?

If not, what's the difference?

Well what annoys me is that this feels like a plot by those who ordered the cake. I'm not religious (having a brain in my head) but if I were and I was in business and I was asked to create something which advocated something I was opposed to on faith grounds I'd want the freedom under law not to fulfil the order. Not be compelled by law to go against my beliefs.

Robbo · 08-07-2014 10:25am

Harry Palmr wrote: »

A Northern Ireland bakery was asked to create a cake with a pro-gay marriage message featuring Bert and Ernie (who as far as I know are not gay!) the bakery refused as it went against the religious views of the owner, the people who ordered the cake reported the bakery to the Equality Commission who have informed the bakers that they are now open to prosecution.

You keep thinking that about Bert and Ernie, they just want a quiet life.

BeerWolf · 08-07-2014 10:26am

lazygal wrote: »

Now I know which bakery to avoid in that neck of the woods. WTF is a bakery run on Christian values anyway?

Jesus broke bread at his last supper - that's good enough for them.

I Heart Internet · 08-07-2014 10:27am

lazygal wrote: »

What would Jesus the cake maker do? Are civil rights just political campaigns now?

Jesus actually has very little bearing on this debate. The business people have a right to decline to be involved in this groups political campaign.

P_1 · 08-07-2014 10:28am

Right in this instance I'd have to say that the bakery were right to refuse to bake the cake.

Forgive the slight strawmanning but lets imagine a Sinn Fein activist wanted to get a cake made that had 'Saor Eire Anois' written across it in a Unionist-run bakery, or take Bruce Springsteen refusing to have his music played at the GOP convention in the states. If a business has no wish to be associated with a political campaign then they should be free to refuse business that would associate them with it.

It's not homophobic or discriminatory to not wish to be a part of a pro SSM campaign.

Kermit.de.frog · 08-07-2014 10:30am

Don't see the issue here. The owners of the bakery have their religious beliefs. They are entitled to religious expression. I don't think it's anyone's business. If people don't like it just shop somewhere else.

This does not strike me as intolerance on behalf of the bakery but rather intolerance on behalf of the customer.

Dixie Chick · 08-07-2014 10:32am

Just go to another bakery. No business HAS to accept a job they don't want. Was there no other bakeries around. Would you ask a Jewish grocer to stock pork pies for you and then have a ninny fit if they refused?

Mr. Loverman · 08-07-2014 10:32am

floggg wrote: »

Tell me OP would you be outraged if the bakery refused to make a cake for a black family?

If not, what's the difference?

In fairness, that's not what happened here.

They didn't say they wouldn't make cakes for gay people, in other words, gay people are not banned from their shops.

They just don't want to make cakes which have a supporting gay marriage message written on them.

I don't know what to think about all this. I don't care if someone is gay or not, and I don't see why they can't get married, but should businesses be allowed to refuse custom based on religious beliefs? For example, should a muslim restaurant be forced to serve non-halal meat?

realdanbreen · 08-07-2014 10:33am

I suppose its hard to blame the bakery when you consider that there is no such thing as a gay clergyman !

folan · 08-07-2014 10:34am

Donkey Oaty wrote: »

Maybe it was Bert they objected to rather than the message.

He has serious form.

holy ****!

no way would i make a cake to link me to that crowd!

Mr. Loverman · 08-07-2014 10:34am

Ironically the gay person who ordered the cake is probably delighted now.

floggg · 08-07-2014 10:35am

I Heart Internet wrote: »

A black family is not a political campaign.

A gay person or family is not a political campaign.

A campaign poster/cake for gay marriage is a political campaign.

A business should have the right to decline business it doesn't want, in particular for political campaigns it doesn't wish to be involved in.

Yes, reading the link it seems it was a political message, which they probably should be allowed refuse.

If however it was just a wedding cake for a gay couple (which has been refused in numerous other cases) would you or other posters support them refusing it?

folan · 08-07-2014 10:35am

Also, cakes cant be gay. they have no emotions.

Awkward Badger · 08-07-2014 10:37am

Activists crying victim and causing hassle for anyone and everyone because they didn't get what they want is all this is. Surprised the Equality Commission has nobody working there capable of actually investigating complaints before issuing threats of legal action. I somehow doubt there would be such letters if the complaint was about them refusing to print a cake saying support abortion.

P_1 · 08-07-2014 10:39am

floggg wrote: »

Yes, reading the link it seems it was a political message, which they should be allowed refuse.

If however it was just a wedding cake for a gay couple (which has been refused in numerous other cases) would you or other posters support them refusing it?

That's a tough one. If the bakery are against SSM on religious grounds then we're into 'asking a Jewish butcher to make you a currywurst' territory. Similarly to how religious people shouldn't force their religious beliefs on you, you shouldn't force your social views on religious people.

Maphisto · 08-07-2014 10:40am

You'd think in this day and age they'd be grateful for the business.

It's a cake FFS.

Duggy747 · 08-07-2014 10:41am

I'm for gay marriage and all that jazz so I like seeing truly intolerant folk put in their place for their shenanigans, but crucifying a business in public when they don't want to be seen endorsing something political which they should be free to do so is going too far.

Forcing them to change their decision or be fined is ridiculous, they either want to win people over or let them develop an underlying hatred for the likes of people who are gay / pro-SSM

Donkey Oaty · 08-07-2014 10:41am

Awkward Badger wrote: »

I somehow doubt there would be such letters if the complaint was about them refusing to print a cake saying support abortion.

Not as hypothetical as you might think. Already there are pro-choice activists who have decided to "express our opinion through cake".

http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/the-womens-blog-with-jane-martinson/2011/sep/29/cakes-and-right-to-choose?I

Seedy Arling · 08-07-2014 10:41am

I'm pro SSM for cakes, so at the very yeast the cake shop owners can go suck a lemon.

floggg · 08-07-2014 10:42am

Mr. Loverman wrote: »

I don't know what to think about all this. I don't care if someone is gay or not, and I don't see why they can't get married, but should businesses be allowed to refuse custom based on religious beliefs? For example, should a muslim restaurant be forced to serve non-halal meat?

Should businesses be allowed refuse people of other races or religions based religious beliefs?

Your comparison to a Muslim restaurant being made to serve non-halal food is a false equivalence.

The bakery wouldn't be required to provide any additional service to the couple they don't already provide. They would simply be required to offer their current services on equal terms irregardless of race, sexual orientation etc.

So the equivalent scenario for your Muslim restaurant would be if they refused to sell halal food to non-Muslims.

RoboRat · 08-07-2014 10:42am

I somehow doubt there would be such letters if the complaint was about them refusing to print a cake saying support abortion.

Agreed.

I am all for gay marriage but if somebody holds a viewpoint against it, then they are entitled to it. If the issue was about the support gay marriage message rather than just refusing a gay couple then I feel they are entitled to hold their ground. If it was the latter then they are out of order.

realdanbreen · 08-07-2014 10:45am

Donkey Oaty wrote: »

Maybe it was Bert they objected to rather than the message.

He has serious form.

Isn't Bert an Orangeman!

I Heart Internet · 08-07-2014 10:45am

floggg wrote: »

Yes, reading the link it seems it was a political message, which they probably should be allowed refuse.

If however it was just a wedding cake for a gay couple (which has been refused in numerous other cases) would you or other posters support them refusing it?

I personally wouldn't support them, but I wouldn't force them (or like to see them being forced) to participate in a business they don't wish to be involved in.

That's certainly not was done here though.

In fact, the case (described in the video) seems entirely flawed. The Equality Comission claim that the bakery discriminated against the customer based on his sexual orinetation, when it seems the bakery had not one iota of a clue what sexual orientation the man was. The bakery declined to back a political campaign that's all.

08-07-2014 10:46am

I'd like to know exactly what the Equality Commission's letter said. If what's being reported is accurate it's fairly disappointing IMO.

Tabnabs · 08-07-2014 10:48am

Ironically, the businesses in these situations usually fare pretty well as like minded people in the community and their congregation will show their support for the right to refuse the issue.

08-07-2014 10:49am

While I find the whole thing farcical, you have to wonder just how much time these people have on their hands if they can put so much effort into taking on a cake shop. It may be unfair but there's plenty more bakeries out there which will do the cake they want. If someone runs a business then they should be entitled to decide what they do and don't do.

I wonder if there would be so much outrage if a cake shop refused to bake a cake which expressed a racist message?

floggg · 08-07-2014 10:49am

P_1 wrote: »

That's a tough one. If the bakery are against SSM on religious grounds then we're into 'asking a Jewish butcher to make you a currywurst' territory. Similarly to how religious people shouldn't force their religious beliefs on you, you shouldn't force your social views on religious people.

No - you're in the Jewish butcher being forced to serve kosher beef to the Christian territory.

The bakery make and sell cakes. They aren't being asked to do anything they don't already do. The only variable is the sexual orientation/marital status of the couple asking for the cake.

That's what runs foul of the equality legislation - refusing to provide goods or service based on gender, sexual orientation, civil or family status etc.

Mr. Loverman · 08-07-2014 10:50am

floggg wrote: »

Should businesses be allowed refuse people of other races or religions based religious beliefs?

Your comparison to a Muslim restaurant being made to serve non-halal food is a false equivalence.

The bakery wouldn't be required to provide any additional service to the couple they don't already provide. They would simply be required to offer their current services on equal terms irregardless of race, sexual orientation etc.

So the equivalent scenario for your Muslim restaurant would be if they refused to sell halal food to non-Muslims.

Maybe, I dunno, I don't really care.

I'm not sure what the solution is. We all have our own beliefs, so you can probably find discrimination in everything. Shopping around is probably the easiest solution.

Dravokivich · 08-07-2014 10:52am

They had one of those "Management reserve the right to refuse admission" stickers on their front door yeah?

I don't see why it's being made into such a big deal, a business should be able to choose whether or not they'll make products that support (or deride) a political agenda. Regardless of the religious motivations of the owners of the bakery.

However, one has to consider, is the issue really just a cake and the message one looked to have put onto the cake? There have been a few articles put forward before of B&B's refusing to accommodate people when they've noticed it was a gay couple that booked the room, "based on their religious beliefs."

I Heart Internet · 08-07-2014 10:53am

floggg wrote: »

The bakery make and sell cakes. They aren't being asked to do anything they don't already do. The only variable is the sexual orientation/marital status of the couple asking for the cake.

That's what runs foul of the equality legislation - refusing to provide goods or service based on gender, sexual orientation, civil or family status etc.

I really doubt that's the case here though.

They declined the order because of it's political message. They had (I'm sure) no clue as to the sexual orientation or marital status of the customer. How could they? Do gay people wear a sign now?

08-07-2014 10:53am

Dravokivich wrote: »

They had one of those "Management reserve the right to refuse admission" stickers on their front door yeah?

I don't see why it's being made into such a big deal, a business should be able to choose whether or not they'll make products that support (or deride) a political agenda. Regardless of the religious motivations of the owners of the bakery.

However, one has to consider, is the issue really just a cake and the message one looked to have put onto the cake? There have been a few articles put forward before of B&B's refusing to accommodate people when they've noticed it was a gay couple that booked the room, "based on their religious beliefs."

iirc the B&B in question had it clear on their website and the couple knew it would be an issue

Gay Cake Controversy!

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