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Gay Cake Controversy!

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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 16,146 ✭✭✭✭ osarusan


    floggg wrote: »
    The bakery make and sell cakes. They aren't being asked to do anything they don't already do. The only variable is the sexual orientation/marital status of the couple asking for the cake.

    That's what runs foul of the equality legislation - refusing to provide goods or service based on gender, sexual orientation, civil or family status etc.

    The variable was not the gender of the customers, it was the message on the cake.

    And I don't think a bakery should be forced to put whatever message a customer wants on a cake.


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,681 ✭✭✭✭ P_1


    floggg wrote: »
    No - you're in the Jewish butcher being forced to serve kosher beef to the Christian territory.

    The bakery make and sell cakes. They aren't being asked to do anything they don't already do. The only variable is the sexual orientation/marital status of the couple asking for the cake.

    That's what runs foul of the equality legislation - refusing to provide goods or service based on gender, sexual orientation, civil or family status etc.

    I dunno. I think businesses should retain the right to maintain some sort of control over what market their product is associated with if it has the potential to harm their sales in their main customer base.

    Although having said that, looking at the video the bakery posted. They made a complete hames of it. Instead of waffling on about their christian ethos they should have simply said 'it's not in our business model to get involved in political campaigns'.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,678 ✭✭✭ I Heart Internet


    P_1 wrote: »
    Although having said that, looking at the video the bakery posted. They made a complete hames of it. Instead of waffling on about their christian ethos they should have simply said 'it's not in our business model to get involved in political campaigns'.

    To be fair, they do go on about honesty in their business dealings so the above excuse, which seems quite valid (and the Sesame Street copyright one) would just be a lie that they would, presumably, not stand over.


  • Registered Users Posts: 159 ✭✭ BlimpyBoy


    floggg wrote: »
    Would you also support their right to refuse black people on grounds of their race?

    That's not what's happening here.

    They weren't refusing to server the customer because they were gay but because of the pro-gay message on the cake.

    Do you think a bakery run Muslims should have to fulfill an order of a cake with a picture of Mohammed on it?


  • Registered Users Posts: 16,146 ✭✭✭✭ osarusan


    This reminds me of that poor poor man who was 'arrested for speaking Irish in Northern Ireland', who, it turns out, just happened to be the treasurer for Republican Sinn Fein and had an unfortunate habit of getting arrested by the PSNI.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 5,983 ✭✭✭ Caliden


    You have to wonder if the person making the order knew they were a fairly religious bakery and made the order at this particular bakery on purpose?


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Politics Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 81,309 CMod ✭✭✭✭ coffee_cake


    Caliden wrote: »
    You have to wonder if the person making the order knew they were a fairly religious bakery and made the order at this particular bakery on purpose?

    I would say that's very likely


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,678 ✭✭✭ I Heart Internet


    Caliden wrote: »
    You have to wonder if the person making the order knew they were a fairly religious bakery and made the order at this particular bakery on purpose?

    One would wonder that alright.

    To be honest, it seems an odd thing to put on a cake (doesn't it?)

    This kind of thing can easily back-fire though. Something like this a week before a SSM referendum, for example, would imho take a few percentage points off the Yes vote.


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,803 ✭✭✭✭ dxhound2005


    I don't agree with having the word Queer on the cake either, it is offensive to some people.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,437 ✭✭✭ c_man


    lazygal wrote: »
    Now I know which bakery to avoid in that neck of the woods. WTF is a bakery run on Christian values anyway?

    They specialise in hot cross buns.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 5,565 ✭✭✭ RandomName2


    floggg wrote: »
    Should businesses be allowed refuse people of other races or religions based religious beliefs?

    Your comparison to a Muslim restaurant being made to serve non-halal food is a false equivalence.

    It seems pretty spot on tbh. They didn't refuse the homosexual customer, they refused the "homosexual order". Forcing them to make a cake which was for a campaign they felt at odds with their beliefs is a bit much. It's their business, and i'd imagine making a cake is a pretty personal thing. Of course, if they had refused the request based on the customer's sexual orientation, or if they hadn't offered a full refund, that would be out of order. Also (and this is something we don't know) how they handled it would be important - but I see no reason to think they were in in any way particularly unpleasant in their refusal.

    A good comparison would be asking a bakery to make a cake which depicted all the major religious figures; which was politely refused as it happened to be a Muslim bakery; who have strong feelings about the depiction of Muhammad. Seems fair enough.

    Seems like an unpleasant move on the part of the customer, really.


  • Registered Users Posts: 19,802 ✭✭✭✭ suicide_circus


    These kind of tactics are not helpful to the SSM cause.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,912 ✭✭✭ conorhal


    Duggy747 wrote: »
    I'm for gay marriage and all that jazz so I like seeing truly intolerant folk put in their place for their shenanigans, but crucifying a business in public when they don't want to be seen endorsing something political which they should be free to do so is going too far.

    Forcing them to change their decision or be fined is ridiculous, they either want to win people over or let them develop an underlying hatred for the likes of people who are gay / pro-SSM

    I'd agree with your sentement. This kind of passive agressive and disingenuous victim culture is counter productive and at best juvenile.
    Spare us all from hashtag campaigns and righteous internet lynch mobs from either side of the debate, their frothing points scoring is tiresome and the venom and spite does little to advance a cause an quite a lot to put people off. Campaign on the positive.

    If a baker that was gay refused a request to bake a cake that promoted a no vote in April 2015 and told the customer they should go somewhere else I'd have no problem with that either.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,678 ✭✭✭ I Heart Internet


    #gakegate


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,564 ✭✭✭✭ whiskeyman


    This story had me in tiers...


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,295 ✭✭✭✭ Duggy747


    Flour power generation


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,809 ✭✭✭ floggg


    No. Nor would I support them refusing a cake for a gay person.

    But a wedding cake for a SSM couple (where SSM is not even legal in the jurisdiction), I would support their right not to make that and thereby lend support to a political campaign.

    I'm pretty sure people still call civil partnership cakes "wedding cakes."

    Cakes aren't really pedantic like that.

    But fine, would you be against refusing to bake a civil partnership cake then?


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,319 ✭✭✭ Brendan Flowers


    floggg wrote: »
    Would you also support their right to refuse black people on grounds of their race?

    Why do you continue to ignore the posts people have made pointing out just how stupidly flawed your argument about serving black people is?

    The bakery didnt refuse them because they are gay. They refused them because of the political agenda behind the cake. But please carry on with your 'this is like refusing black people because of their race' hypebole campaign.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,809 ✭✭✭ floggg


    P_1 wrote: »
    I dunno. I think businesses should retain the right to maintain some sort of control over what market their product is associated with if it has the potential to harm their sales in their main customer base.

    Although having said that, looking at the video the bakery posted. They made a complete hames of it. Instead of waffling on about their christian ethos they should have simply said 'it's not in our business model to get involved in political campaigns'.

    So if the only wanted to be associated with a white market that's fine?


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,501 ✭✭✭ FullblownRose


    conorhal wrote: »
    I'd agree with your sentement. This kind of passive agressive and disingenuous victim culture is counter productive and at best juvenile.
    Spare us all from hashtag campaigns and righteous internet lynch mobs from either side of the debate, their frothing points scoring is tiresome and the venom and spite does little to advance a cause an quite a lot to put people off. Campaign on the positive.

    If a baker that was gay refused a request to bake a cake that promoted a no vote in April 2015 and told the customer they should go somewhere else I'd have no problem with that either.

    If any baker refused an order for a cake supporting a NO vote, it would amount to the same thing, because its a political message on a cake.

    The baker would be applauded for such a decision, even though they could be anti 'ssm' for all anybody knew, but still decline to make a cake with a political message, but few people will accept that that's the motivation behind the bakers refusal when it hapens to be a request for a 'yes' vote cake.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 5,809 ✭✭✭ floggg


    Why do you continue to ignore the posts people have made pointing out just how stupidly flawed your argument about serving black people is?

    The bakery didnt refuse them because they are gay. They refused them because of the political agenda behind the cake. But please carry on with your 'this is like refusing black people because of their race' hypebole campaign.

    Why do you continue to ignore the posts I made where I said in this instance I thought the bakery shouldn't have to make the cake if it's political and then went on to discuss the more common case where bakers refuse to sell wedding/civilmpartnership cakes to gay couples (in countries where it is legal)?

    In which case race isn't hyperbole, it's cover under the same legislation.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,678 ✭✭✭ I Heart Internet


    floggg wrote: »
    I'm pretty sure people still call civil partnership cakes "wedding cakes."

    Cakes aren't really pedantic like that.

    But fine, would you be against refusing to bake a civil partnership cake then?

    Cakes aren't pedantic but political sloganing often is.

    No, if a baker declines to bake a civil partnership cake I would not try to force him or her to do so.


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,159 ✭✭✭✭ whisky_galore


    Isn't Bert an Orangeman!


    Wasn't that on the Bert Is Evil site, along with being behind 911/Kennedy assassination/ Hitler's rise to power?


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,280 ✭✭✭ Davarus Walrus


    Was it a fruit cake?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,533 ✭✭✭ Donkey Oaty


    Interesting comment on the bakery's Facebook Page:
    "we run our business according to Christian values and beliefs, according to what the Bible teaches".. Is that so... I was thinking of getting married, But my girlfriend is not a virgin, so I would like a cake with a woman being stoned to death please.


  • Registered Users Posts: 546 ✭✭✭ Azwaldo55


    If these Christian bakers don't want to bake a gay cake then why f*cking make them? Leave them alone!
    Imagine if you went into a Halal or a Kosher restaurant and demanded roast pork? Why would you do that unless you were stirring it up?
    I don't go around forcing everyone I see to agree with me. I am a passionate Man U fan but I don't insist all my friends support my team do I?


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,681 ✭✭✭✭ P_1


    floggg wrote: »
    So if the only wanted to be associated with a white market that's fine?

    It's not as black and white (if you pardon the pun) as that and you know it.

    Lets take a hypothetical business who's customers are generally conservative by nature. Now these customers might not be the nicest but their money keeps the doors open and people in a job. One day a new one off customer orders a cake for a same sex wedding and a particularly gossipy conservative customer notices that and decides to withhold their business because of it and tell their friends why they did so. Now the business does the right thing by making the cake for the wedding and it's a fantastic cake but they notice their bread and butter custom is drying up. They have no idea why they did until word gets back to them that it was over them making the cake for the same sex wedding.

    I know that's an extreme hypothesis but I'd wager that quite a lot of businesses would have that concern. You simply don't accept one off business that has the potential to alienate your customer base. I'm not saying that it's right for a second but sadly that is reality.


  • Registered Users Posts: 22,897 ✭✭✭✭ Dyr


    I bet cake is never mentioned in the bible


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,809 ✭✭✭ floggg


    P_1 wrote: »
    It's not as black and white (if you pardon the pun) as that and you know it.

    Lets take a hypothetical business who's customers are generally conservative by nature. Now these customers might not be the nicest but their money keeps the doors open and people in a job. One day a new one off customer orders a cake for a same sex wedding and a particularly gossipy conservative customer notices that and decides to withhold their business because of it and tell their friends why they did so. Now the business does the right thing by making the cake for the wedding and it's a fantastic cake but they notice their bread and butter custom is drying up. They have no idea why they did until word gets back to them that it was over them making the cake for the same sex wedding.

    I know that's an extreme hypothesis but I'd wager that quite a lot of businesses would have that concern. You simply don't accept one off business that has the potential to alienate your customer base. I'm not saying that it's right for a second but sadly that is reality.

    It would also be the reality in a racist community where the served a black or Asian customer and it offended their existing customer base.

    I don't think few would stand over racial discrimination yet if you discriminate against gay people it's only a disagreement over believes for some reasons.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,414 ✭✭✭ Awkward Badger


    Bambi wrote: »
    I bet cake is never mentioned in the bible

    Wasn't there a commandment or something that went "thou shalt not have thy cake and eat it?"


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