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Gay Cake Controversy!

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Comments



  • mackerski wrote: »
    But let's get away from this one incident and what may be indeed be a mischievous stunt calculated to provoke a confrontation. In the video it was remarked on about how many key staff members are Christians and the Christian ethos of the bakery was played up. Am I wrong to conclude that this ethos could impact the hiring process? Perhaps all staff are Christians. Maybe they are even all a particular denomination of Christian. That might be reasonable for a priesthood or a branch of the Veritas bookshop, but my understanding of employment law suggests that vertically integrating a bakery with religion could be a bit dodgy. It wasn't OK for shipyards, so why a bakery?

    Bakeries aren't massive corporations usually and small companies tend to have a high proportion of workers who are from the same family or move in similar circles. If a law is used to address that I think it's going a little too far.


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,028 ✭✭✭✭ --LOS--


    Well if the Gay Christian claims to be part of a denomination that expressly forbids homosexuality then most people would probably think that they're engaging in some pretty serious cognitive dissonance.

    not necessarily, just because someone believes in something doesn't mean they agree with everything that religion/belief/whatever says. However way they reconcile it is on them, not something I could necessarily do. But it's not like you can't be gay and christian.




  • --LOS-- wrote: »
    Ye I'm fully aware of the story. They may claim they're not homophobic and it's simply against their beliefs, religion is not an excuse in my eyes though.
    Are political beliefs justification?
    I would rather whoever was looking for the cake actually just speak to the owners in person, rather than sending a messenger in the form of the equality commission, but I'm guessing they deal with this thing a little too often.
    If you go looking for something I'm sure it's likely to come across it a bit more.
    They're a private business, they can pick and choose custom if they like, doesn't make it right.
    Not always.
    It's not about being pc, it's about standing up for yourself.
    It's about kicking up a fuss in this case.
    If the customer has no issue giving business to a company that has differing views to them, why should the business.
    Because not all people are the same?


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,809 ✭✭✭ floggg


    osarusan wrote: »
    Will you stop with all these strawman arguments?

    It's not a straw man argument at all.

    I'm asking a question - I want to understand peoples views. Do they object to all equality legislation, or just this ground.

    And I don't see any difference in discrimination on grounds of sex, sexual orientation, race, religion etc.

    Neither does the legislation which is being invoked here. They are all covered.

    For clarity - I'm not talking about this specific cake and it's political message. I'm talking about refusal of service on the protected ground of sexual orientation.


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,681 ✭✭✭✭ P_1


    floggg wrote: »
    It's not a straw man argument at all.

    I'm asking a question - I want to understand peoples views. Do they object to all equality legislation, or just this ground.

    And I don't see any difference in discrimination on grounds of sex, sexual orientation, race, religion etc.

    Neither does the legislation which is being invoked here. They are all covered.

    For clarity - I'm not talking about this specific cake and it's political message. I'm talking about refusal of service on the protected ground of sexual orientation.

    It's different to blatant racism as you have two protected statuses (religion and sexuality) coming into conflict. Yes people have the right to not be discriminated on based on their sexuality but people also have the right to freely express their religion.


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  • --LOS-- wrote: »
    not necessarily, just because someone believes in something doesn't mean they agree with everything that religion/belief/whatever says. However way they reconcile it is on them, not something I could necessarily do. But it's not like you can't be gay and christian.
    Depends on what denomination. Gay Catholics are engaging in cognitive dissonance, as are gays in most major religions in Northern Ireland. It's akin to me calling myself a communist but being in favour of free markets and not wanting a centrally-planned economy or government involvement in the provision of any services. I can still call myself a communist if I want, doesn't make it true.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 938 ✭✭✭ Buzz Killington the third


    I'm gonna order a cake with a picture of Muhammad on it!


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,809 ✭✭✭ floggg


    P_1 wrote: »
    It's different to blatant racism as you have two protected statuses (religion and sexuality) coming into conflict. Yes people have the right to not be discriminated on based on their sexuality but people also have the right to freely express their religion.

    Racism is often masked in religious tones. Many Christians thought slavery and segregation were mandated by the bible.

    Many Christians also believe women are not entitled to the same freedoms and service as men.

    Many Muslims would take that further and think they shouldn't be allowed do very much of anything without a man beside them.

    Under equality law, if you open a business and offer your services to the public, you must park your religious/racial/misognistic objections at home and serve all customers equally.

    Your religion is a private matter and cannot justify discrimination in the public realm.

    So there isn't actually any principled distinction - if you're racist views are rooted in religion, it still doesn't make a difference and you must serve black or Chinese customers equally. It's the exact same position as if you're homophobia is rooted in religion.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 9,441 ✭✭✭ old hippy


    bluewolf wrote: »
    It was an activist asking for a political cake.

    Not to mention it doesn't matter if you have disagreeable opinions, I think a private business should still have basic right of refusal.

    Cakes for all!

    Except maybe gays, Travellers, disabled folk, Jews, Muslims, Zimbabweans etc etc etc


  • Registered Users Posts: 441 ✭✭ Scarlet42


    was it a fruit cake they wanted?

    hmmm .. makes me wonder did the person who ordered the cake in the first place know that the owners had religious ideas ... wonder how many communion cakes are made in Sandy Row bakeries? or how many LOL cakes are made in Andytown bakeries?

    do people not watch those "Great Bakeoff" shows? most of the men on them are gay ....place is falling down with gay bakers! and they pick the this one!


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  • old hippy wrote: »
    Cakes for all!

    Except maybe gays, Travellers, disabled folk, Jews, Muslims, Zimbabweans etc etc etc
    Link to the bakery refusing each of those please.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,056 ✭✭✭ _Redzer_


    The religious thing is bollox though.

    I'm a gay atheist, and if you wanted a cake with Jesus on it or some other religious thing, I wouldn't have any problem with it. It's a cake ffs.

    Why are the religious so precious about these things, yet someone like me would easily be tolerant to their needs? As I said, I could make them a fine Jesus cake without a problem, even though it goes against what I believe.


  • Registered Users Posts: 498 ✭✭ yoke


    Businesses cannot be allowed to decide who they do business with - the state should decide that.

    Otherwise, how would you feel if a shop refused to sell you an item on display, but sold it to someone else who wanted it?

    "sorry, but you cannot buy that cake on display. that other random person there, yeah he can buy it"

    Businesses are given tax breaks and all kinds of support by the state, and they must be forced to follow it's laws and support the state even if it conflicts with someones stupid religious beliefs.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,618 ✭✭✭ The Diabolical Monocle


    What's this offer and acceptance nonsense.

    I demand you make me a cake now.


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,681 ✭✭✭✭ P_1


    floggg wrote: »
    Racism is often masked in religious tones. Many Christians thought slavery and segregation were mandated by the bible.

    Many Christians also believe women are not entitled to the same freedoms and service as men.

    Many Muslims would take that further and think they shouldn't be allowed do very much of anything without a man beside them.

    Under equality law, if you open a business and offer your services to the public, you must park your religious/racial/misognistic objections at home and serve all customers equally.

    Your religion is a private matter and cannot justify discrimination in the public realm.

    So there isn't actually any principled distinction - if you're racist views are rooted in religion, it still doesn't make a difference and you must serve black or Chinese customers equally. It's the exact same position as if you're homophobia is rooted in religion.

    Ok fair enough lets look at it from another angle. If somebody asked you to bake a cake for an arranged marriage would you feel comfortable in doing so?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 10,375 ✭✭✭✭ kunst nugget


    yoke wrote: »
    Businesses cannot be allowed to decide who they do business with - the state should decide that.

    Otherwise, how would you feel if a shop refused to sell you an item on display, but sold it to someone else who wanted it?

    "sorry, but you cannot buy that cake on display. that other random person there, yeah he can buy it"

    Businesses are given tax breaks and all kinds of support by the state, and they must be forced to follow it's laws and support the state even if it conflicts with someones stupid religious beliefs.

    It's not like that in this instance. It's not like they had a 'We support Gay Marriage' cake on display and then refused to sell it to a gay person. A person ordered a cake and then was told the bakers wouldn't make the cake based on their religious beliefs.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,252 ✭✭✭ FTA69


    They didn't refuse to bake the cake because the customer was gay but because it carried a political message.

    Are they still bigoted ignorant eejits on this particular matter? Yes. Should they be criminalised for not making an explicitly political cake? No.


  • Registered Users Posts: 498 ✭✭ yoke


    bluewolf wrote: »
    It was an activist asking for a political cake.

    Not to mention it doesn't matter if you have disagreeable opinions, I think a private business should still have basic right of refusal.

    So what if it was an activist asking for a political cake?

    Would the making of the cake be considered producing illegal goods? - if yes, then the business should refuse (eg. copyright infringement stuff, etc.).
    Otherwise, the business has no business deciding what the customer can and can't order.
    If they advertise "custom messages on cakes" then they have no right to decide what custom messages they will do, and what they wont, as long as the messages aren't illegal.

    A private business should have right of refusal? Then you must support landlords that say "no gay couples please" or jobs which say "no foreigners, blacks, travellers, need apply".


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 815 ✭✭✭ animaal


    yoke wrote: »
    Businesses cannot be allowed to decide who they do business with - the state should decide that.

    Ah, thank God for big Government.

    I should go straight to the Assets Modelling Agency web page to find the star for my next soft-core porn shoot. The state will force them to participate.


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,784 ✭✭✭✭ dxhound2005


    FTA69 wrote: »
    They didn't refuse to bake the cake because the customer was gay but because it carried a political message.

    Are they still bigoted ignorant eejits on this particular matter? Yes. Should they be criminalised for not making an explicitly political cake? No.

    If you think they are eejits then the majority in the North are eejits as are the majority of their politicians. And maybe after the referendum the majority in the Republic will be proved eejits.

    That's not a good way to see their point of view, in what is a contentious issue in many countries.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,678 ✭✭✭ I Heart Internet


    floggg wrote: »
    And if they declined to serve black customers is that ok with you to?

    No. As I've already said.

    It would also be wrong (as I've said) to decline to serve a person because they are gay.


  • Registered Users Posts: 35,451 ✭✭✭✭ Annasopra


    If you think they are eejits then the majority in the North are eejits as are the majority of their politicians. And maybe after the referendum the majority in the Republic will be proved eejits.

    That's not a good way to see their point of view, in what is a contentious issue in many countries.

    Actually I dont think we need to wait til a referendum.

    I think if such a case happened here they could potentially be in breach of the Equal Status Acts.

    Apparently a "normal" woman is a busty blonde sexy page 3 model who wears make-up, short skirts and red lipsticks and has pouty lips.  Who knew. 👀😏

    ******



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,252 ✭✭✭ FTA69


    If you think they are eejits then the majority in the North are eejits as are the majority of their politicians. And maybe after the referendum the majority in the Republic will be proved eejits.

    That's not a good way to see their point of view, in what is a contentious issue in many countries.

    I said "eejits on this particular matter", I don't think every religious person is a fool but I do think that homophobia based on religion is silly and wrong.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,400 ✭✭✭ Medusa22


    It is a tricky one. I just had a civil partnership so I am definitely not unbiased. On the one hand I believe that people should have the right to refuse custom, especially if it goes against their beliefs. However, on the other hand I can't help but think that they are a bunch of tools for having those beliefs in the first place and how annoyed I'd be if I wanted to have a cake made supporting gay marriage and was refused. For me, it is not a political issue, if you are against gay marriage, I cannot see any reason for it other than you must be homophobic.

    Therefore, if you refuse to make a cake that supports gay marriage you must be homophobic, and as these people are religious and intolerant of gay people then they must be.

    I think that people should try to imagine it this way, what if this was a bakery in the deep south in America in the 1960s, and a black person came into a bakery and asked to have a cake made to support the civil rights of african-americans but the baker refused because it went against his/ her beliefs. Of course you can say that the person does not want to support a political agenda but you know that the person must be racist or unwilling to be seen to support civil rights due to the opinions of other racists.


  • Registered Users Posts: 35,451 ✭✭✭✭ Annasopra


    No. As I've already said.

    It would also be wrong (as I've said) to decline to serve a person because they are gay.

    So if they ordered a cake saying congratulations on your Civil Partnership and it was refused?

    Apparently a "normal" woman is a busty blonde sexy page 3 model who wears make-up, short skirts and red lipsticks and has pouty lips.  Who knew. 👀😏

    ******



  • Registered Users Posts: 27,195 ✭✭✭✭ super_furry


    If a gay couple run a bakery would they be in the same position if they refused to make a cake specifically designed to support no changes to the current traditional marriage status? A 'keep marriage between a man and women' style cake.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Politics Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 81,309 CMod ✭✭✭✭ coffee_cake


    old hippy wrote: »
    Cakes for all!

    Except maybe gays, Travellers, disabled folk, Jews, Muslims, Zimbabweans etc etc etc

    And if a gay-run bakery wanted to refuse a cake to christians who wanted an anti gay marriage message? THey should just stfu yea?


  • Registered Users Posts: 16,143 ✭✭✭✭ osarusan


    If a gay couple run a bakery would they be in the same position if they refused to make a cake specifically designed to support no changes to the current traditional marriage status?

    indeed, if somebody from the Iona institute went into a bakery run by a homosexual and asked them to make a cake saying 'vote no to gay marriage', what would the response be on here?


  • Registered Users Posts: 498 ✭✭ yoke


    It's not like that in this instance. It's not like they had a 'We support Gay Marriage' cake on display and then refused to sell it to a gay person. A person ordered a cake and then was told the bakers wouldn't make the cake based on their religious beliefs.

    So are they saying that they couldn't find a single baker employed by the bakery who would agree to make the cake, because all the bakers employed by them refused to do so based on their own individual religious beliefs?

    ie. they were unable to bake the specified cake due to lack of resources?

    To me it appears more like the management of the bakery did not agree with the message on the cake, and hence refused to create it.

    It's a dangerous road to go down - pretty soon you'll have leaflet companies deciding what you can and can't print on leaflets, TV companies deciding what political views you can express on air, etc.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,533 ✭✭✭ Donkey Oaty


    osarusan wrote: »
    indeed, if somebody from the Iona institute went into a bakery run by a homosexual and asked them to make a cake saying 'vote no to gay marriage', what would the response be on here?

    I don't know, but there would probably be some reference to Muslims or the civil rights movement in 1960s America.


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