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Prophecy regarding Russia

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  • #62
    ryan101
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,671 ✭✭✭ryan101


    Safehands wrote: »
    I don't want to seem disrespectful to good living Catholics, but is this not a superstition, very similar to those chain letters one may receive on line which promise great things if you send this on to ten other people within a certain time limit? If one were to carry out this devotion on a Friday rather than a first Saturday would that make it null and void? It seems very bizarre to attribute this to a Divine being.

    For Christians there should be nothing 'bizarre' about a Christian partaking in reconciliation and the Lord's supper. There is also a first Friday devotion to the Sacred Heart of Jesus. First Fridays and First Saturdays are excellent optional and normal spiritual devotions and practices and a source of great graces for any Catholic, regardless if a Catholic believes in the apparitions or not, and Catholics are not obliged to believe in Lourdes or Fatima.


  • #63
    Safehands
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,348 ✭✭✭Safehands


    ryan101 wrote: »
    For Christians there should be nothing 'bizarre' about a Christian partaking in reconciliation and the Lord's supper. There is also a first Friday devotion to the Sacred Heart of Jesus. First Fridays and First Saturdays are excellent optional and normal spiritual devotions and practices and a source of great graces for any Catholic, regardless if a Catholic believes in the apparitions or not, and Catholics are not obliged to believe in Lourdes or Fatima.

    Partaking in reconciliation is one thing, expecting your visit to a church on a particular Saturday, followed by specific rituals, to have any effect on world affairs, or Russia's future, is bizarre.


  • #64
    ryan101
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,671 ✭✭✭ryan101


    Safehands wrote: »
    Partaking in reconciliation is one thing, expecting your visit to a church on a particular Saturday, followed by specific rituals, to have any effect on world affairs, or Russia's future, is bizarre.

    There is nothing bizarre about prayers, visiting a Church and the Eucharist, and prayers will help others, regardless if one believes in apparitions or not.


  • #65
    Brian Shanahan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,232 ✭✭✭Brian Shanahan


    ryan101 wrote: »
    There is nothing bizarre about prayers, visiting a Church and the Eucharist, and prayers will help others, regardless if one believes in apparitions or not.

    How exactly does doing something which has no connection to the problem a person or group of people facing help them overcome said problem? It's not like praying to what you think is the embodiment of something for which we have no evidence is something that has even plausible odds of being able to do anything.


  • #66
    Benny_Cake
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,105 ✭✭✭Benny_Cake


    Mod: This thread isn't for debating the existence of God (you can do that here). Back on topic, please.


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  • #67
    mezuzaj
    Closed Accounts Posts: 176 ✭✭mezuzaj


    Safehands wrote: »
    Partaking in reconciliation is one thing, expecting your visit to a church on a particular Saturday, followed by specific rituals, to have any effect on world affairs, or Russia's future, is bizarre.

    Is a case of having faith. A muslim or Jew would view Fatima as bizarre. However in Catholic circles is pretty much clear that Fatima was the real deal. We are not taking about some Laconic prophecy. It was very direct. Before the revolution the Church in Russia, the Orthodox Church was very strong, with Thousands of Churchs. You even had the Granddaughter of Queen Elizabeth who had become a Nun, it was a vibrant Church. It held society together.

    Fast forward 80 years, you have a Russia with one of the Highest abortion rates, 140,000 Children in Orphanages,. While the Church is recovering there still has a lot of road to go.

    You should read God in Russia is a memoir by Walter Ciszek.

    What was said in Fatima was pretty Direct.. However when it was told to the Bishop what was he suppose to do, call a press conference? The Reality is that there have been people who actually did receive revelations and those who made them up. The Church usually waits and lets time reveal the truth. In the case of Fatima the visionaries were illiterate peasants, the case was pretty strong and Fatima has a very heavy presence in the Church of the last 100 years.

    All the the Virgen wanted was for us to Pray... Calm prayer never killed anyone.

    PS. Also no thread is going to make a non Believer believe. Faith is a far deeper experience.


  • #68
    Safehands
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,348 ✭✭✭Safehands


    mezuzaj wrote: »
    Is a case of having faith. A muslim or Jew would view Fatima as bizarre. However in Catholic circles is pretty much clear that Fatima was the real deal. We are not taking about some Laconic prophecy. It was very direct. Before the revolution the Church in Russia, the Orthodox Church was very strong, with Thousands of Churchs. You even had the Granddaughter of Queen Elizabeth who had become a Nun, it was a vibrant Church. It held society together.

    Fast forward 80 years, you have a Russia with one of the Highest abortion rates, 140,000 Children in Orphanages,. While the Church is recovering there still has a lot of road to go.

    You should read God in Russia is a memoir by Walter Ciszek.

    What was said in Fatima was pretty Direct.. However when it was told to the Bishop what was he suppose to do, call a press conference? The Reality is that there have been people who actually did receive revelations and those who made them up. The Church usually waits and lets time reveal the truth. In the case of Fatima the visionaries were illiterate peasants, the case was pretty strong and Fatima has a very heavy presence in the Church of the last 100 years.

    All the the Virgen wanted was for us to Pray... Calm prayer never killed anyone.

    PS. Also no thread is going to make a non Believer believe. Faith is a far deeper experience.
    Good points, well made.
    I think that something strange happened at Fatima. it is a great story.
    If God, or Mary wants to convert Russia, or anywhere else they should just do it. Why tell people to beware of Russia (She seemed to know something that the people didn't), and to pray for its conversion. She asked them to pray to her before she will do anything. I'm sorry, but that is a rather strange request, given that she knew all about it already. Its like a mother saying to a child "see that candle over there, it is going to burn the house down. Praise me and ask me to put it out or ask me to get your father to do it and I may consider it. If you don't, the house will burn down. Its up to you." Very strange, in my opinion.


  • #69
    mezuzaj
    Closed Accounts Posts: 176 ✭✭mezuzaj


    Safehands wrote: »
    Good points, well made.
    I think that something strange happened at Fatima. it is a great story.
    If God, or Mary wants to convert Russia, or anywhere else they should just do it. Why tell people to beware of Russia (She seemed to know something that the people didn't), and to pray for its conversion. She asked them to pray to her before she will do anything. I'm sorry, but that is a rather strange request, given that she knew all about it already. Its like a mother saying to a child "see that candle over there, it is going to burn the house down. Praise me and ask me to put it out or ask me to get your father to do it and I may consider it. If you don't, the house will burn down. Its up to you." Very strange, in my opinion.

    God gave us free will. Sadly some use it for bad. Faith like Science does not explain 100% everything. Our raison d'être does not have a universal user manual.

    As the mod said above this is not a thread to debate the existence of God. Its about Fatima, so do understand fatima you need to understand many of the given premises of Faith. One being free will.

    Personally I see God as a reality that is very close to us. A God who became man, a God of the Gospel. Fatima is one of a long list of apparitions that the Church as approved.


  • #70
    tommy2bad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,254 ✭✭✭tommy2bad


    mezuzaj
    A muslim or Jew would view Fatima as bizarre
    A Jew might but Muslims have an affinity for Fatima.
    http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/3020419/posts
    It's all connected.......


  • #71
    tommy2bad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,254 ✭✭✭tommy2bad


    On the other hand;
    http://www.blessedquietness.com/journal/prophecy/fatima.htm
    If believing in visions and especially the message of Fatima is nuts then at least it not the only flavour of nuts available.


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  • #72
    PeteHeat
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 648 ✭✭✭PeteHeat


    Safehands wrote: »
    Good points, well made.
    I think that something strange happened at Fatima. it is a great story.
    If God, or Mary wants to convert Russia, or anywhere else they should just do it. Why tell people to beware of Russia (She seemed to know something that the people didn't), and to pray for its conversion. She asked them to pray to her before she will do anything. I'm sorry, but that is a rather strange request, given that she knew all about it already. Its like a mother saying to a child "see that candle over there, it is going to burn the house down. Praise me and ask me to put it out or ask me to get your father to do it and I may consider it. If you don't, the house will burn down. Its up to you." Very strange, in my opinion.

    Not usually my topic however I found this thread by mistake so if you don't mind I would like to contribute my thoughts.

    To my understanding Fatima is one of the few revelations (maybe not the correct term) that the Catholic Church has recognised, therefore I take it as a Great Story accepted by those who know a lot more than I will in my lifetime.

    God or the Blessed Mother can not convert anyone, man was given free will therefore it is up to the population of any country to accept the word or not.

    Perhaps the warning about Russia pertains to the recent history as all nations appear to accept Russia as peaceful i.e. no longer the threat it was seen to be during the cold war?

    Recent events suggest that Russia's leaders are anything but peaceful, they are interfering with the path of a neighbouring country (Ukraine)?

    Prayer is supposed to work in many ways, maybe it will allow us to open our eyes and see what is happening, another view could be that the Blessed Mother will intercede on our behalf using our prayers similar to a petition with a lot of signatures on it that she can present to God?

    I can't say I answered your question due to the number of question marks in my own post however it may give some food for thought.


  • #73
    Safehands
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,348 ✭✭✭Safehands


    PeteHeat wrote: »
    Prayer is supposed to work in many ways, maybe it will allow us to open our eyes and see what is happening, another view could be that the Blessed Mother will intercede on our behalf using our prayers similar to a petition with a lot of signatures on it that she can present to God?

    That is the belief I have a problem with.
    No doubt strange events happen in the world, events we cannot explain. I've had them happen to me. But the God we are taught about does not work like you suggest, as if he is manager of a large company and a list of signatures will influence him. That is just silly!


  • #74
    ryan101
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,671 ✭✭✭ryan101


    Safehands wrote: »
    That is the belief I have a problem with.
    No doubt strange events happen in the world, events we cannot explain. I've had them happen to me. But the God we are taught about does not work like you suggest, as if he is manager of a large company and a list of signatures will influence him. That is just silly!

    I've seen prayer achieve a lot, and Abraham himself influenced God with his prayers, asking that Sodom be saved until there was only 10 good men left there. Seems rather strange that any Christian calls such prayers 'silly'. No Catholic is obliged to believe in any Marian apparition, but prayer is always good.


  • #75
    Safehands
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,348 ✭✭✭Safehands


    ryan101 wrote: »
    I've seen prayer achieve a lot, and Abraham himself influenced God with his prayers, asking that Sodom be saved until there was only 10 good men left there. Seems rather strange that any Christian calls such prayers 'silly'. No Catholic is obliged to believe in any Marian apparition, but prayer is always good.

    I'm not calling prayer silly. I'm say that the vision of Mary going up to God with a list of petitions from people is plain silly. Do you actually think that this happens?


  • #76
    ryan101
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,671 ✭✭✭ryan101


    Safehands wrote: »
    I'm not calling prayer silly. I'm say that the vision of Mary going up to God with a list of petitions from people is plain silly. Do you actually think that this happens?

    No I don't, but if that's how a poster wants to interpret it / explain it / visualise it for themselves, I for one don't see the need to be so critical and pedantic for the sake of it. Have you any positive contributions for the thread / this forum ?


  • #77
    Benny_Cake
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,105 ✭✭✭Benny_Cake


    Safehands wrote: »
    I'm not calling prayer silly. I'm say that the vision of Mary going up to God with a list of petitions from people is plain silly. Do you actually think that this happens?

    Mod: Can we keep this on topic, please?


  • #78
    indy_man
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 378 ✭✭indy_man


    Safehands wrote: »
    I'm not calling prayer silly. I'm say that the vision of Mary going up to God with a list of petitions from people is plain silly. Do you actually think that this happens?

    Why don't you check out the miracle of the Sun in Fatima, the children requested Mary to do something to prove to the people that they were receiving her messages. Over 70,000 people saw it, many were non believers before it happened, many were from newspapers. It happened. The 100 year anniversary is October 13 2017. I know October 13 is very special from an experience I had with the holy spirit on that date a few years back. Don't discount, check it out, read all sides to the story, I advise it.


  • #79
    Gumbi
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,682 ✭✭✭Gumbi


    indy_man wrote: »
    Why don't you check out the miracle of the Sun in Fatima, the children requested Mary to do something to prove to the people that they were receiving her messages. Over 70,000 people saw it, many were non believers before it happened, many were from newspapers. It happened. The 100 year anniversary is October 13 2017. I know October 13 is very special from an experience I had with the holy spirit on that date a few years back. Don't discount, check it out, read all sides to the story, I advise it.

    Newspapers reported that based on testimonials from those at the alleged event. I think you should research it yourself. Many more likely explanations out there vs the alleged one which implies that many of the laws of physics were broken for a period of ten minutes.


  • #80
    ryan101
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,671 ✭✭✭ryan101


    Gumbi wrote: »
    Newspapers reported that based on testimonials from those at the alleged event. I think you should research it yourself. Many more likely explanations out there vs the alleged one which implies that many of the laws of physics were broken for a period of ten minutes.

    Why do you think they were broken rather than it being a mass shared vision ?


  • #81
    Gumbi
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,682 ✭✭✭Gumbi


    ryan101 wrote: »
    Why do you think they were broken rather than it being a mass shared vision ?

    Well the claim, among other things, alleges that everyone's soaking clothes became instantly (magically would be a suitable word I think?) and the ground (soaking wet as it was) became instantly dry upon the occurence of the event.


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  • #82
    ryan101
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,671 ✭✭✭ryan101


    Gumbi wrote: »
    Well the claim, among other things, alleges that everyone's soaking clothes became instantly (magically would be a suitable word I think?) and the ground (soaking wet as it was) became instantly dry upon the occurence of the event.

    magic infers a human trick, miraculously would be the correct word.
    And something drying quickly does not break the laws of physics.


  • #83
    Gumbi
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,682 ✭✭✭Gumbi


    ryan101 wrote: »
    magic infers a human trick, miraculously would be the correct word.
    And something drying quickly does not break the laws of physics.

    No, we have weather reports from those days I would suspect. Measurable data. I doubt the atmospheric data would allow for the mmense amount of heat it would require the remove the water from everyone's clothes and completely dry up the ground of pools in a matter of minutes. Not to mention the effects such a sudden change of heat would have on people.

    I wonder as well, did the rest of that area experience such a sudden and immense increase in temperature? I could go on but the alleged event raises many, many questions and you can be sure my initial response to it would not be "Goddidit".


  • #84
    ryan101
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,671 ✭✭✭ryan101


    Gumbi wrote: »
    No, we have weather reports from those days I would suspect. Measurable data. I doubt the atmospheric data would allow for the mmense amount of heat it would require the remove the water from everyone's clothes and completely dry up the ground of pools in a matter of minutes. Not to mention the effects such a sudden change of heat would have on people.

    I wonder as well, did the rest of that area experience such a sudden and immense increase in temperature? I could go on but the alleged event raises many, many questions and you can be sure my initial response to it would not be "Goddidit".

    Well dig up the weather reports, but unless you have actual accurate local weather data from the exact site, as weather measurement even in a local area will have variations, and it may not have been the weather that dried up the area's in question, as what caused the evaporation is unknown from a scientific point of view.


  • #85
    Gumbi
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,682 ✭✭✭Gumbi


    ryan101 wrote: »
    Well dig up the weather reports, but unless you have actual accurate local weather data from the exact site, you have nothing, and it may not have been the weather that dried up the area's in question.

    What else could have dried the clothes of thousands and the muddy ground covered in water?

    As for the weather records, such a stupendous occurence would not have been located in a perfect square surround the people there lol.

    And I have a feeling if I were to dig them up you would dismiss them instantly and pursue another explanation instead of accepting the astronimcal unlikelihood of such a weather event (as yet unexplained as such a phenomenon I've never heard of before, an extraordinary change in tenperature in such a short period of time confined to such a small area).


  • #86
    ryan101
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,671 ✭✭✭ryan101


    Gumbi wrote: »
    What else could have dried the clothes of thousands and the muddy ground covered in water?

    As for the weather records, such a stupendous occurence would not have been located in a perfect square surround the people there lol.

    I don't know what caused it, you're the one making the claims
    Produce the weather records then, and weather is not the only source of heat or cause of evaporation


  • #87
    Gumbi
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,682 ✭✭✭Gumbi


    ryan101 wrote: »
    I don't know what caused it, you're the one making the claims
    Produce the weather records then, and weather is not the only source of heat or cause of evaporation

    See my edit, and I didn't make any claims. Can you suggest another mechanism by which such vast quantities of water were evapkrated in such a short period of time?


  • #88
    ryan101
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,671 ✭✭✭ryan101


    Gumbi wrote: »
    See my edit, and I didn't make any claims. Can you suggest another mechanism by which such vast quantities of water were evapkrated in such a short period of time?

    Yes a miracle, can you ?


  • #89
    Gumbi
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,682 ✭✭✭Gumbi


    ryan101 wrote: »
    Yes a miracle, can you ?

    You would assume the impossible before chasing any other reasonable alternative? I guess that's a key difference between you and me. And yet, you've really come no closer to the answer. A miracle? This doesn't actually explainanything.

    I am humble enough to say, I don't know what happened. I do know, however that eyewitness testimony is unreliable, and that there are many other possibilities as to how such an event could have occurred, optical illusions and the like. But truly, I don't have enough information to make any such judgement, and so I say: I don't know. You seem to assune the testimony is accurate and deduce that a miracle is the only explanation, a completely different approach to it than me.

    Would you assume any incident whereby you don't have an explanation as to how it occurred as a miracle? Why not take a bold stel forward and say "I don't know" (..."but maybe with further investigation and more evidence I can figure it out").


  • #90
    ryan101
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,671 ✭✭✭ryan101


    Gumbi wrote: »
    You would assume the impossible before chasing any other reasonable alternative? I guess that's a key difference between you and me. And yet, you've really come no closer to the answer. A miracle? This doesn't actually explainanything.

    I am humble enough to say, I don't know what happened. I do know, however that eyewitness testimony is unreliable, and that there are many other possibilities as to how such an event could have occurred, optical illusions and the like. But truly, I don't have enough information to make any such judgement, and so I say: I don't know. You seem to assune the testimony is accurate and deduce that a miracle is the only explanation, a completely different approach to it than me.

    Would you assume any incident whereby you don't have an explanation as to how it occurred as a miracle? Why not take a bold stel forward and say "I don't know" (..."but maybe with further investigation and more evidence I can figure it out").

    I don't know what caused it, you asked what else could cause it, and a miracle is something else that could cause it. I don't know the cause, but the 30,000 plus people that were there and the press at the time, having no other explanation, ascribed it to a miracle, i.e. an unexplained event, possibly of supernatural origin. I can't travel back in time for you to figure it out and investigate it for you, while ignoring the contemporary accounts.

    Estimates of number present range from 30,000 to 40,000 by Avelino de Almeida, writing for the Portuguese newspaper O Século, to 100,000, estimated by Dr. Joseph Garrett, professor of natural sciences at the University of Coimbra, both of whom were present that day. You can read their accounts for yourself.


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  • #91
    Gumbi
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,682 ✭✭✭Gumbi


    ryan101 wrote: »
    I don't know what caused it, you asked what else could cause it, and a miracle is something else that could cause it. I don't know the cause, but the 30,000 plus people that were there and the press at the time, having no other explanation, ascribed it to a miracle, i.e. an unexplained event, possibly of supernatural origin. I can't travel back in time for you to figure it out and investigate it for you, while ignoring the contemporary accounts.
    Well, first we must assume the accounts to be accurate (I've already mentioned thst eyewitness testimony can be unreliable). Next we must consider some possibilities - optical illusions, etc. If we have exhausted all possibilities without coming close to an answer we must sit back and say, I don't knoe whst happened, clearly we don't have enough information. Which is exactly what I do. I fail to what justifies bringing the supernstural into it.

    Do you consider the supernstural in every event that you do not understand?


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