Prophecy regarding Russia

ryan101

Whether you believe them or not, I think there is far too much focus on interpreting prophecies, while the constant main message of these apparitions and prophecies is being missed/ignored : Prayer, repentance/reconciliation, fasting, reading scripture, treating others how you wish to be treated, and getting your own life in the best order you can.

Keep taking care of your body, mind, and soul, and other people, and the rest will take care of itself.

Eat much more veg, fruit, and fibre, and less and meat, carbs, and processed foods.
Get out walking, or doing whatever exercise you prefer, for 20 minutes every day.

newmug

ryan101 wrote: »

Whether you believe them or not, I think there is far too much focus on interpreting prophecies, while the constant main message is being missed : Prayer, repentance/reconciliation, fasting, reading scripture, treating others how you wish to be treated, and getting your own life in the best order you can.

Keep taking care of your body, mind, and soul, and the rest will take care of itself.

Eat much more veg, fruit, and fibre, and less and meat, carbs, and processed foods.
Get out walking, or doing whatever exercise you prefer, for 20 minutes every day.

And go to Mass every day. Say a Rosary aswell, for those who don't go to Mass.

antiskeptic

georgieporgy wrote: »

The "great sign", "a night lit up by an unknown light," occurred on January 25, 1938

On March 12, 1938, German troops march into Austria to annex the German-speaking nation for the Third Reich.

And? The Italians invaded Ethiopia in October 1935? WWII started when big protagonists declared war on each other - and that was after Pius 11th died.

If you're wanting to take some precursor as being the starting point then you've any amount to chose from over any number of years.

Which renders the "prophecy" somewhat useless given that time alone will probably render it true.

What you've done is classic: take something vague, match it to something equally vague and hey presto: bang on the button prophecy.

mezuzaj

antiskeptic wrote: »

And? The Italians invaded Ethiopia in October 1935? WWII started when big protagonists declared war on each other - and that was after Pius 11th died.

If you're wanting to take some precursor as being the starting point then you've any amount to chose from over any number of years.

Which renders the "prophecy" somewhat useless given that time alone will probably render it true.

What you've done is classic: take something vague, match it to something equally vague and hey presto: bang on the button prophecy.

Fatima is undoubtedly the most prophetic of modern apparitions. Infact its hard to ignore the concrete message given about Russia. Lucia in 1929 wrote to the Pope about Russia, However at the time Fatima had not been given full approval.

What has happened at fatima has happened many times.. But as regards Russia the message was pretty clear. "[Russia] will spread her errors throughout the world, causing wars and persecutions of the Church. " We look a communism which destroyed thousands of Churchs in Russia. Look what communism did to China or North Korea. Or for example Pol Pot.

Fatima made a lot of People listen and as Lucia's letters became true it made the Church listen.

Pope Pius XII was consecrated the date of the First apparition and Pope John Paul II shot on anniversary of Fatima.

indy_man

mezuzaj wrote: »

Fatima is undoubtedly the most prophetic of modern apparitions. Infact its hard to ignore the concrete message given about Russia. Lucia in 1929 wrote to the Pope about Russia, However at the time Fatima had not been given full approval.

What has happened at fatima has happened many times.. But as regards Russia the message was pretty clear. "[Russia] will spread her errors throughout the world, causing wars and persecutions of the Church. " We look a communism which destroyed thousands of Churchs in Russia. Look what communism did to China or North Korea. Or for example Pol Pot.

Fatima made a lot of People listen and as Lucia's letters became true it made the Church listen.

Pope Pius XII was consecrated the date of the First apparition and Pope John Paul II shot on anniversary of Fatima.

Yes mezuzaj, Fatima is very real, very important and very relevant to our time, with just about three years to its anniversary which many hope could be the time of the triumph of the immaculate heart or Mary.

It is very important that we at some point perform the first Saturday devotion as requested by Our Lady of Fatima. It only take five first Saturdays in a row. God Bless.

j80ezgvc3p92xu

Well the situation in the Ukraine is more or less diffused now, Putin moved his troops back from the Ukrainian border... Or is it a case of quiet before the storm? by the way did anyone hear of the crying icons in Greece? Boards will not let me post a link but its definitely on youtube.

Safehands

indy_man wrote: »

It is very important that we at some point perform the first Saturday devotion as requested by Our Lady of Fatima. It only take five first Saturdays in a row. God Bless.

I must admit that I have never heard of the first Saturdays. It seems quite bizarre that Mary would ask such a thing.

hinault

Father Malachi Martin S.J. claims to have been one of the few to have read the Third Secret of Fatima in 1960.
The third secret is said to make reference to Russia

In subsequent interviews in the early 1990's on American radio, Fr.Martin explicitly states that there are references in the Fatima's third secret to.................................... Kiev.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=az4dzdS79jU

indy_man

Safehands wrote: »

I must admit that I have never heard of the first Saturdays. It seems quite bizarre that Mary would ask such a thing.

Its a well known devotion but needs to be practiced. I would advise trying, you might notice many in Churches each Saturday practicing it.
http://www.rosary-center.org/firstsat.htm

Safehands

indy_man wrote: »

Its a well known devotion but needs to be practiced. I would advise trying, you might notice many in Churches each Saturday practicing it.
http://www.rosary-center.org/firstsat.htm

I don't want to seem disrespectful to good living Catholics, but is this not a superstition, very similar to those chain letters one may receive on line which promise great things if you send this on to ten other people within a certain time limit? If one were to carry out this devotion on a Friday rather than a first Saturday would that make it null and void? It seems very bizarre to attribute this to a Divine being.

ryan101

Safehands wrote: »

I don't want to seem disrespectful to good living Catholics, but is this not a superstition, very similar to those chain letters one may receive on line which promise great things if you send this on to ten other people within a certain time limit? If one were to carry out this devotion on a Friday rather than a first Saturday would that make it null and void? It seems very bizarre to attribute this to a Divine being.

For Christians there should be nothing 'bizarre' about a Christian partaking in reconciliation and the Lord's supper. There is also a first Friday devotion to the Sacred Heart of Jesus. First Fridays and First Saturdays are excellent optional and normal spiritual devotions and practices and a source of great graces for any Catholic, regardless if a Catholic believes in the apparitions or not, and Catholics are not obliged to believe in Lourdes or Fatima.

Safehands

ryan101 wrote: »

For Christians there should be nothing 'bizarre' about a Christian partaking in reconciliation and the Lord's supper. There is also a first Friday devotion to the Sacred Heart of Jesus. First Fridays and First Saturdays are excellent optional and normal spiritual devotions and practices and a source of great graces for any Catholic, regardless if a Catholic believes in the apparitions or not, and Catholics are not obliged to believe in Lourdes or Fatima.

Partaking in reconciliation is one thing, expecting your visit to a church on a particular Saturday, followed by specific rituals, to have any effect on world affairs, or Russia's future, is bizarre.

ryan101

Safehands wrote: »

Partaking in reconciliation is one thing, expecting your visit to a church on a particular Saturday, followed by specific rituals, to have any effect on world affairs, or Russia's future, is bizarre.

There is nothing bizarre about prayers, visiting a Church and the Eucharist, and prayers will help others, regardless if one believes in apparitions or not.

Brian Shanahan

ryan101 wrote: »

There is nothing bizarre about prayers, visiting a Church and the Eucharist, and prayers will help others, regardless if one believes in apparitions or not.

How exactly does doing something which has no connection to the problem a person or group of people facing help them overcome said problem? It's not like praying to what you think is the embodiment of something for which we have no evidence is something that has even plausible odds of being able to do anything.

Benny_Cake

Mod: This thread isn't for debating the existence of God (you can do that here). Back on topic, please.

mezuzaj

Safehands wrote: »

Partaking in reconciliation is one thing, expecting your visit to a church on a particular Saturday, followed by specific rituals, to have any effect on world affairs, or Russia's future, is bizarre.

Is a case of having faith. A muslim or Jew would view Fatima as bizarre. However in Catholic circles is pretty much clear that Fatima was the real deal. We are not taking about some Laconic prophecy. It was very direct. Before the revolution the Church in Russia, the Orthodox Church was very strong, with Thousands of Churchs. You even had the Granddaughter of Queen Elizabeth who had become a Nun, it was a vibrant Church. It held society together.

Fast forward 80 years, you have a Russia with one of the Highest abortion rates, 140,000 Children in Orphanages,. While the Church is recovering there still has a lot of road to go.

You should read God in Russia is a memoir by Walter Ciszek.

What was said in Fatima was pretty Direct.. However when it was told to the Bishop what was he suppose to do, call a press conference? The Reality is that there have been people who actually did receive revelations and those who made them up. The Church usually waits and lets time reveal the truth. In the case of Fatima the visionaries were illiterate peasants, the case was pretty strong and Fatima has a very heavy presence in the Church of the last 100 years.

All the the Virgen wanted was for us to Pray... Calm prayer never killed anyone.

PS. Also no thread is going to make a non Believer believe. Faith is a far deeper experience.

Safehands

mezuzaj wrote: »

Is a case of having faith. A muslim or Jew would view Fatima as bizarre. However in Catholic circles is pretty much clear that Fatima was the real deal. We are not taking about some Laconic prophecy. It was very direct. Before the revolution the Church in Russia, the Orthodox Church was very strong, with Thousands of Churchs. You even had the Granddaughter of Queen Elizabeth who had become a Nun, it was a vibrant Church. It held society together.

Fast forward 80 years, you have a Russia with one of the Highest abortion rates, 140,000 Children in Orphanages,. While the Church is recovering there still has a lot of road to go.

You should read God in Russia is a memoir by Walter Ciszek.

What was said in Fatima was pretty Direct.. However when it was told to the Bishop what was he suppose to do, call a press conference? The Reality is that there have been people who actually did receive revelations and those who made them up. The Church usually waits and lets time reveal the truth. In the case of Fatima the visionaries were illiterate peasants, the case was pretty strong and Fatima has a very heavy presence in the Church of the last 100 years.

All the the Virgen wanted was for us to Pray... Calm prayer never killed anyone.

PS. Also no thread is going to make a non Believer believe. Faith is a far deeper experience.

Good points, well made.
I think that something strange happened at Fatima. it is a great story.
If God, or Mary wants to convert Russia, or anywhere else they should just do it. Why tell people to beware of Russia (She seemed to know something that the people didn't), and to pray for its conversion. She asked them to pray to her before she will do anything. I'm sorry, but that is a rather strange request, given that she knew all about it already. Its like a mother saying to a child "see that candle over there, it is going to burn the house down. Praise me and ask me to put it out or ask me to get your father to do it and I may consider it. If you don't, the house will burn down. Its up to you." Very strange, in my opinion.

mezuzaj

Safehands wrote: »

Good points, well made.
I think that something strange happened at Fatima. it is a great story.
If God, or Mary wants to convert Russia, or anywhere else they should just do it. Why tell people to beware of Russia (She seemed to know something that the people didn't), and to pray for its conversion. She asked them to pray to her before she will do anything. I'm sorry, but that is a rather strange request, given that she knew all about it already. Its like a mother saying to a child "see that candle over there, it is going to burn the house down. Praise me and ask me to put it out or ask me to get your father to do it and I may consider it. If you don't, the house will burn down. Its up to you." Very strange, in my opinion.

God gave us free will. Sadly some use it for bad. Faith like Science does not explain 100% everything. Our raison d'être does not have a universal user manual.

As the mod said above this is not a thread to debate the existence of God. Its about Fatima, so do understand fatima you need to understand many of the given premises of Faith. One being free will.

Personally I see God as a reality that is very close to us. A God who became man, a God of the Gospel. Fatima is one of a long list of apparitions that the Church as approved.

tommy2bad

mezuzaj
A muslim or Jew would view Fatima as bizarre

A Jew might but Muslims have an affinity for Fatima.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/3020419/posts
It's all connected.......

tommy2bad

On the other hand;
http://www.blessedquietness.com/journal/prophecy/fatima.htm
If believing in visions and especially the message of Fatima is nuts then at least it not the only flavour of nuts available.

PeteHeat

Safehands wrote: »

Good points, well made.
I think that something strange happened at Fatima. it is a great story.
If God, or Mary wants to convert Russia, or anywhere else they should just do it. Why tell people to beware of Russia (She seemed to know something that the people didn't), and to pray for its conversion. She asked them to pray to her before she will do anything. I'm sorry, but that is a rather strange request, given that she knew all about it already. Its like a mother saying to a child "see that candle over there, it is going to burn the house down. Praise me and ask me to put it out or ask me to get your father to do it and I may consider it. If you don't, the house will burn down. Its up to you." Very strange, in my opinion.

Not usually my topic however I found this thread by mistake so if you don't mind I would like to contribute my thoughts.

To my understanding Fatima is one of the few revelations (maybe not the correct term) that the Catholic Church has recognised, therefore I take it as a Great Story accepted by those who know a lot more than I will in my lifetime.

God or the Blessed Mother can not convert anyone, man was given free will therefore it is up to the population of any country to accept the word or not.

Perhaps the warning about Russia pertains to the recent history as all nations appear to accept Russia as peaceful i.e. no longer the threat it was seen to be during the cold war?

Recent events suggest that Russia's leaders are anything but peaceful, they are interfering with the path of a neighbouring country (Ukraine)?

Prayer is supposed to work in many ways, maybe it will allow us to open our eyes and see what is happening, another view could be that the Blessed Mother will intercede on our behalf using our prayers similar to a petition with a lot of signatures on it that she can present to God?

I can't say I answered your question due to the number of question marks in my own post however it may give some food for thought.

Safehands

PeteHeat wrote: »

Prayer is supposed to work in many ways, maybe it will allow us to open our eyes and see what is happening, another view could be that the Blessed Mother will intercede on our behalf using our prayers similar to a petition with a lot of signatures on it that she can present to God?

That is the belief I have a problem with.
No doubt strange events happen in the world, events we cannot explain. I've had them happen to me. But the God we are taught about does not work like you suggest, as if he is manager of a large company and a list of signatures will influence him. That is just silly!

ryan101

Safehands wrote: »

That is the belief I have a problem with.
No doubt strange events happen in the world, events we cannot explain. I've had them happen to me. But the God we are taught about does not work like you suggest, as if he is manager of a large company and a list of signatures will influence him. That is just silly!

I've seen prayer achieve a lot, and Abraham himself influenced God with his prayers, asking that Sodom be saved until there was only 10 good men left there. Seems rather strange that any Christian calls such prayers 'silly'. No Catholic is obliged to believe in any Marian apparition, but prayer is always good.

Safehands

ryan101 wrote: »

I've seen prayer achieve a lot, and Abraham himself influenced God with his prayers, asking that Sodom be saved until there was only 10 good men left there. Seems rather strange that any Christian calls such prayers 'silly'. No Catholic is obliged to believe in any Marian apparition, but prayer is always good.

I'm not calling prayer silly. I'm say that the vision of Mary going up to God with a list of petitions from people is plain silly. Do you actually think that this happens?

ryan101

Safehands wrote: »

I'm not calling prayer silly. I'm say that the vision of Mary going up to God with a list of petitions from people is plain silly. Do you actually think that this happens?

No I don't, but if that's how a poster wants to interpret it / explain it / visualise it for themselves, I for one don't see the need to be so critical and pedantic for the sake of it. Have you any positive contributions for the thread / this forum ?

Benny_Cake

Safehands wrote: »

I'm not calling prayer silly. I'm say that the vision of Mary going up to God with a list of petitions from people is plain silly. Do you actually think that this happens?

Mod: Can we keep this on topic, please?

indy_man

Safehands wrote: »

I'm not calling prayer silly. I'm say that the vision of Mary going up to God with a list of petitions from people is plain silly. Do you actually think that this happens?

Why don't you check out the miracle of the Sun in Fatima, the children requested Mary to do something to prove to the people that they were receiving her messages. Over 70,000 people saw it, many were non believers before it happened, many were from newspapers. It happened. The 100 year anniversary is October 13 2017. I know October 13 is very special from an experience I had with the holy spirit on that date a few years back. Don't discount, check it out, read all sides to the story, I advise it.

Gumbi

indy_man wrote: »

Why don't you check out the miracle of the Sun in Fatima, the children requested Mary to do something to prove to the people that they were receiving her messages. Over 70,000 people saw it, many were non believers before it happened, many were from newspapers. It happened. The 100 year anniversary is October 13 2017. I know October 13 is very special from an experience I had with the holy spirit on that date a few years back. Don't discount, check it out, read all sides to the story, I advise it.

Newspapers reported that based on testimonials from those at the alleged event. I think you should research it yourself. Many more likely explanations out there vs the alleged one which implies that many of the laws of physics were broken for a period of ten minutes.

ryan101

Gumbi wrote: »

Newspapers reported that based on testimonials from those at the alleged event. I think you should research it yourself. Many more likely explanations out there vs the alleged one which implies that many of the laws of physics were broken for a period of ten minutes.

Why do you think they were broken rather than it being a mass shared vision ?

Gumbi

ryan101 wrote: »

Why do you think they were broken rather than it being a mass shared vision ?

Well the claim, among other things, alleges that everyone's soaking clothes became instantly (magically would be a suitable word I think?) and the ground (soaking wet as it was) became instantly dry upon the occurence of the event.

ryan101

Gumbi wrote: »

Well the claim, among other things, alleges that everyone's soaking clothes became instantly (magically would be a suitable word I think?) and the ground (soaking wet as it was) became instantly dry upon the occurence of the event.

magic infers a human trick, miraculously would be the correct word.
And something drying quickly does not break the laws of physics.

Gumbi

ryan101 wrote: »

magic infers a human trick, miraculously would be the correct word.
And something drying quickly does not break the laws of physics.

No, we have weather reports from those days I would suspect. Measurable data. I doubt the atmospheric data would allow for the mmense amount of heat it would require the remove the water from everyone's clothes and completely dry up the ground of pools in a matter of minutes. Not to mention the effects such a sudden change of heat would have on people.

I wonder as well, did the rest of that area experience such a sudden and immense increase in temperature? I could go on but the alleged event raises many, many questions and you can be sure my initial response to it would not be "Goddidit".

ryan101

Gumbi wrote: »

No, we have weather reports from those days I would suspect. Measurable data. I doubt the atmospheric data would allow for the mmense amount of heat it would require the remove the water from everyone's clothes and completely dry up the ground of pools in a matter of minutes. Not to mention the effects such a sudden change of heat would have on people.

I wonder as well, did the rest of that area experience such a sudden and immense increase in temperature? I could go on but the alleged event raises many, many questions and you can be sure my initial response to it would not be "Goddidit".

Well dig up the weather reports, but unless you have actual accurate local weather data from the exact site, as weather measurement even in a local area will have variations, and it may not have been the weather that dried up the area's in question, as what caused the evaporation is unknown from a scientific point of view.

Gumbi

ryan101 wrote: »

Well dig up the weather reports, but unless you have actual accurate local weather data from the exact site, you have nothing, and it may not have been the weather that dried up the area's in question.

What else could have dried the clothes of thousands and the muddy ground covered in water?

As for the weather records, such a stupendous occurence would not have been located in a perfect square surround the people there lol.

And I have a feeling if I were to dig them up you would dismiss them instantly and pursue another explanation instead of accepting the astronimcal unlikelihood of such a weather event (as yet unexplained as such a phenomenon I've never heard of before, an extraordinary change in tenperature in such a short period of time confined to such a small area).

ryan101

Gumbi wrote: »

What else could have dried the clothes of thousands and the muddy ground covered in water?

As for the weather records, such a stupendous occurence would not have been located in a perfect square surround the people there lol.

I don't know what caused it, you're the one making the claims
Produce the weather records then, and weather is not the only source of heat or cause of evaporation

Gumbi

ryan101 wrote: »

I don't know what caused it, you're the one making the claims
Produce the weather records then, and weather is not the only source of heat or cause of evaporation

See my edit, and I didn't make any claims. Can you suggest another mechanism by which such vast quantities of water were evapkrated in such a short period of time?

ryan101

Gumbi wrote: »

See my edit, and I didn't make any claims. Can you suggest another mechanism by which such vast quantities of water were evapkrated in such a short period of time?

Yes a miracle, can you ?

Gumbi

ryan101 wrote: »

Yes a miracle, can you ?

You would assume the impossible before chasing any other reasonable alternative? I guess that's a key difference between you and me. And yet, you've really come no closer to the answer. A miracle? This doesn't actually explainanything.

I am humble enough to say, I don't know what happened. I do know, however that eyewitness testimony is unreliable, and that there are many other possibilities as to how such an event could have occurred, optical illusions and the like. But truly, I don't have enough information to make any such judgement, and so I say: I don't know. You seem to assune the testimony is accurate and deduce that a miracle is the only explanation, a completely different approach to it than me.

Would you assume any incident whereby you don't have an explanation as to how it occurred as a miracle? Why not take a bold stel forward and say "I don't know" (..."but maybe with further investigation and more evidence I can figure it out").

ryan101

Gumbi wrote: »

You would assume the impossible before chasing any other reasonable alternative? I guess that's a key difference between you and me. And yet, you've really come no closer to the answer. A miracle? This doesn't actually explainanything.

I am humble enough to say, I don't know what happened. I do know, however that eyewitness testimony is unreliable, and that there are many other possibilities as to how such an event could have occurred, optical illusions and the like. But truly, I don't have enough information to make any such judgement, and so I say: I don't know. You seem to assune the testimony is accurate and deduce that a miracle is the only explanation, a completely different approach to it than me.

Would you assume any incident whereby you don't have an explanation as to how it occurred as a miracle? Why not take a bold stel forward and say "I don't know" (..."but maybe with further investigation and more evidence I can figure it out").

I don't know what caused it, you asked what else could cause it, and a miracle is something else that could cause it. I don't know the cause, but the 30,000 plus people that were there and the press at the time, having no other explanation, ascribed it to a miracle, i.e. an unexplained event, possibly of supernatural origin. I can't travel back in time for you to figure it out and investigate it for you, while ignoring the contemporary accounts.

Estimates of number present range from 30,000 to 40,000 by Avelino de Almeida, writing for the Portuguese newspaper O Século, to 100,000, estimated by Dr. Joseph Garrett, professor of natural sciences at the University of Coimbra, both of whom were present that day. You can read their accounts for yourself.

Gumbi

ryan101 wrote: »

I don't know what caused it, you asked what else could cause it, and a miracle is something else that could cause it. I don't know the cause, but the 30,000 plus people that were there and the press at the time, having no other explanation, ascribed it to a miracle, i.e. an unexplained event, possibly of supernatural origin. I can't travel back in time for you to figure it out and investigate it for you, while ignoring the contemporary accounts.

Well, first we must assume the accounts to be accurate (I've already mentioned thst eyewitness testimony can be unreliable). Next we must consider some possibilities - optical illusions, etc. If we have exhausted all possibilities without coming close to an answer we must sit back and say, I don't knoe whst happened, clearly we don't have enough information. Which is exactly what I do. I fail to what justifies bringing the supernstural into it.

Do you consider the supernstural in every event that you do not understand?

ryan101

Gumbi wrote: »

Well, first we must assume the accounts to be accurate (I've already mentioned thst eyewitness testimony can be unreliable). Next we must consider some possibilities - optical illusions, etc. If we have exhausted all possibilities without coming close to an answer we must sit back and say, I don't knoe whst happened, clearly we don't have enough information. Which is exactly what I do. I fail to what justifies bringing the supernstural into it.

Do you consider the supernstural in every event that you do not understand?

No do you ? Yet earlier you claimed it must have been caused by the weather. Unless you're assuming the accounts to be inaccurate, and that De Almeida and Garret ascribed every single event they did not understand in life as supernatural.

PeteHeat

Safehands wrote: »

I'm not calling prayer silly. I'm say that the vision of Mary going up to God with a list of petitions from people is plain silly. Do you actually think that this happens?

Maybe it happens that way maybe it doesn't, I used a very simple example to describe a possible scenario.

Blessed Mother asks us to pray, it appears to me that she would like as many as possible to join in that prayer so there must be a reason for both the prayers and the numbers who offer them up.

Appears that Russia is the country that is most in need of Divine help, so by including Russia in our prayers are we actually praying for and protecting ourselves?

I don't recall seeing anywhere that the prophecies are set in stone, the only message from God set in stone was the ten commandments, perhaps from this we can take it that all prophecies do not necessarily come to pass?

Perhaps the power of prayer is such that it can change what was predicted?

I am a simple man who instead of analysing everything and trying to decipher prophecies that were made thousands of years ago some of which must have been lost in translation or the methods used to pass them on (written or verbal) I prefer to look to the teachings of Jesus as I understand them.

We can look up many phrases from the bible using Google and become even more confused because there are many versions of the bible edited or adapted in some cases to fit a religion, others are what some interpreted them to mean.

Many if not most people pray for themselves, maybe we are being guided to pray for Russia and by default we will benefit?

Do we have to question everything to the point where we leave faith aside?

A bit like asking someone to prove a point by providing a link to a web site except in matters of faith there is no all defining link that explains everything?

Enjoy life, keep it simple.

"Do unto others as you would have others do unto you"

antiskeptic

mezuzaj wrote: »

Fatima is undoubtedly the most prophetic of modern apparitions. Infact its hard to ignore the concrete message given about Russia. Lucia in 1929 wrote to the Pope about Russia, However at the time Fatima had not been given full approval.

So let's have a look..

But as regards Russia the message was pretty clear. "[Russia] will spread her errors throughout the world, causing wars and persecutions of the Church. " We look a communism which destroyed thousands of Churchs in Russia. Look what communism did to China or North Korea. Or for example Pol Pot.

Leaving aside what constitutes "error" (for I can't help but suppose monumental error in a system which decries anything but ever increasing growth and consumption)

Look what secularism did to the Church. Wrecked in it's traditional form, whether Protestant of Catholic in nigh on all the Western world.

A 'prophecy' which is so specific as to be applied almost anywhere in the world is hardly .. prophetic. It's a bit like predicting the outbreak of the worst of all wars (per earlier in the discussion). It's so easy to do (given the nature of the evolution of war) that the specificity of the prophecy need raise itself a gear or two above the quality that is MysticMeg-ism.











Fatima made a lot of People listen and as Lucia's letters became true it made the Church listen.

Pope Pius XII was consecrated the date of the First apparition and Pope John Paul II shot on anniversary of Fatima.[/QUOTE]

indy_man

Gumbi wrote: »

Well, first we must assume the accounts to be accurate (I've already mentioned thst eyewitness testimony can be unreliable). Next we must consider some possibilities - optical illusions, etc. If we have exhausted all possibilities without coming close to an answer we must sit back and say, I don't knoe whst happened, clearly we don't have enough information. Which is exactly what I do. I fail to what justifies bringing the supernstural into it.

Do you consider the supernstural in every event that you do not understand?

Do you even believe Christ rose from the dead, yet you blindly without even researching Fatima discount it? Our Lady has been given a special role in helping us fight evil and come closer to her son. She gives us warnings, we don't have to believe them but would be well advised to take heed. There is vast amounts of evidence, scientific, eye witness and other testimony that prove certain apparitions have occurred and are supernatural in nature. That is what this thread is mainly about.

mezuzaj

Gumbi wrote: »

Well, first we must assume the accounts to be accurate (I've already mentioned thst eyewitness testimony can be unreliable). Next we must consider some possibilities - optical illusions, etc. If we have exhausted all possibilities without coming close to an answer we must sit back and say, I don't knoe whst happened, clearly we don't have enough information. Which is exactly what I do. I fail to what justifies bringing the supernstural into it.

Do you consider the supernstural in every event that you do not understand?

Its not an event we do not understand. That is why we believe.

Gumbi

indy_man wrote: »

Do you even believe Christ rose from the dead, yet you blindly without even researching Fatima discount it? Our Lady has been given a special role in helping us fight evil and come closer to her son. She gives us warnings, we don't have to believe them but would be well advised to take heed. There is vast amounts of evidence, scientific, eye witness and other testimony that prove certain apparitions have occurred and are supernatural in nature. That is what this thread is mainly about.

Lol? Science operates under the assumption on that the supernatural doesn't exist - that it, it is naturalistic.

ryan101

Gumbi wrote: »

Lol? Science operates under the assumption on that the supernatural doesn't exist - that it, it is naturalistic.

No it doesn't. Science makes no assumptions about anything, and it's a tool for dealing with the physical not the non physical.

Gumbi

ryan101 wrote: »

No it doesn't. Science makes no assumptions about anything, and it's a tool for dealing with the physical not the non physical.

http://undsci.berkeley.edu/article/0_0_0/whatisscience_12

It's basic science to know that it deals only with the realm of nature, and non the supernatural. It makes no claims as to whether the supernatural exists or not, but operates irrrspective of it.

mezuzaj

Gumbi wrote: »

Lol? Science operates under the assumption on that the supernatural doesn't exist - that it, it is naturalistic.

While your post is off topic, science does not operate under any assumption that supernatural does not exist, its not within Science scope, but there is no scientific law ruling it out or in.

"Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind."

ryan101

Gumbi wrote: »

http://undsci.berkeley.edu/article/0_0_0/whatisscience_12

It's basic science to know that it deals only with the realm of nature, and non the supernatural. It makes no claims as to whether the supernatural exists or not, but operates irrrspective of it.

Correct. Science can only deal with the physical. Whereas you claimed instead that Science made the assumption that the non physical does not exist.

Gumbi wrote: »

Lol? Science operates under the assumption on that the supernatural doesn't exist - that it, it is naturalistic.