Prophecy regarding Russia

lazybones32

Gumbi wrote: »

I don't think there's enough evidence to determine what happened there at all. And it's been established earlier that a lot of the claims made are actually impossible (with regard to physical laws, local weather conditions etc).

So, what is more likely, a smattering of reasonable solutions (optical illusions, misreported phenomena etc) or "magic"?

I guess the most compelling 'evidence' is the testimony of those who experienced something while in attendance: many, many people (not all Catholic or even people of faith) experienced something inexplicable that day.
What is a miracle, if not a suspension of natural laws? Lourdes has it's medical files open for any doctor who wants to review the "medically inexplicable" healings that have occurred there but I don't know if Fatima has anything similar. I guess if the testimony of thousands of people won't open your mind, what will?

Probability doesn't count for anything and certainly doesn't explain what transpired that day. Again, what precedent is there for optical illusions to explain it? And so you know, many of those who reported the 'event' were reporters who were there to expose the whole thing as a hoax and fabrication.

Gumbi

lazybones32 wrote: »

I guess the most compelling 'evidence' is the testimony of those who experienced something while in attendance: many, many people (not all Catholic or even people of faith) experienced something inexplicable that day.
What is a miracle, if not a suspension of natural laws? Lourdes has it's medical files open for any doctor who wants to review the "medically inexplicable" healings that have occurred there but I don't know if Fatima has anything similar. I guess if the testimony of thousands of people won't open your mind, what will?

Probability doesn't count for anything and certainly doesn't explain what transpired that day. Again, what precedent is there for optical illusions to explain it? And so you know, many of those who reported the 'event' were reporters who were there to expose the whole thing as a hoax and fabrication.

Testimony is a very unreliable evidential form.

Safehands

lazybones32 wrote: »

Have you read anything about Fatima? People were healed there too and the incident with the rain?
You cite "optical illusion" but what precedent do you have? Can you verify that an illusion occurred; how it affected +40,000 people and yet others present didn't experience it; and what was the source of this illusion?

Yes I can verify it. The sun did not move. It was an illusion. The sun has never danced like that described at Fatima. It appeared to dance but as I said, it was an illusion. It didn't actually happen, much and all as you want it to have. I have no idea what the source was. I have no doubt people saw something, but the sun was not moving, sorry!

lazybones32

Gumbi wrote: »

Testimony is a very unreliable evidential form.

Reliable enough to put people in prison,no?

Or did you demand proof when your beloved said "I love you"?

Gumbi

lazybones32 wrote: »

Reliable enough to put people in prison,no?

Or did you demand proof when your beloved said "I love you"?

I don't think people should be jailed solely on the say-so of another in a lot of cases.

"I love you" is just words. Nothing more, nothing less. What matters is what those words mean. And that meaning is attained over years of fun times, companionship etc.

As for what happened on Fatima, I don't know what happened. I can only respond to the claims being made. I can say with certainty that the sun didn't move, though.

lazybones32

Safehands wrote: »

Yes I can verify it. The sun did not move. It was an illusion. The sun has never danced like that described at Fatima. It appeared to dance but as I said, it was an illusion. It didn't actually happen, much and all as you want it to have. I have no idea what the source was. I have no doubt people saw something, but the sun was not moving, sorry!

Where did I say the Sun danced/moved or spun? Did I write or imply that the Sun came closer to the Earth? I think you have credited me with words that are not my own.
Would you consider a fore-mentioned, localised, inexplicable series of phenomena as truly being within natural laws? Or do you consider 40,000 people witnessing a star 'falling' to earth as being within natural law?
(Yes, the Sun - like all stars - does move)

Safehands

lazybones32 wrote: »

Where did I say the Sun danced/moved or spun? Did I write or imply that the Sun came closer to the Earth? I think you have credited me with words that are not my own.
Would you consider a fore-mentioned, localised, inexplicable series of phenomena as truly being within natural laws? Or do you consider 40,000 people witnessing a star 'falling' to earth as being within natural law?
(Yes, the Sun - like all stars - does move)

They did not witness the sun falling to Earth, because it didn't. No other star fell to Earth either. So what they witnessed was an optical illusion, meaning their eyes thought they saw it but in fact they did not see it because it didn't happen. Even suggesting that the Sun "fell to Earth" is ridiculous. Why would a deity figure want to do that?

lazybones32

Safehands wrote: »

They did not witness the sun falling to Earth, because it didn't. No other star fell to Earth either. So what they witnessed was an optical illusion, meaning their eyes thought they saw it but in fact they did not see it because it didn't happen. Even suggesting that the Sun "fell to Earth" is ridiculous. Why would a deity figure want to do that?

Oh my! Do you stop and correct people when they say they saw the sunrise or sunset? The Sun appears to rise and set everyday and on a particular day, the Sun appeared to fall to the Earth. Continue splitting hairs over language used or instead of telling people what could and couldn't have happened, tell us what did..and feel free to provide the reasons why a deity acts as it does.

Safehands

lazybones32 wrote: »

Oh my! Do you stop and correct people when they say they saw the sunrise or sunset? The Sun appears to rise and set everyday and on a particular day, the Sun appeared to fall to the Earth. Continue splitting hairs over language used or instead of telling people what could and couldn't have happened, tell us what did..and feel free to provide the reasons why a deity acts as it does.

Sunrise and sunset are two totally explainable events. Several thousand people, but not all people present, saw some form of illusion. That does not constitute a miracle. The Indian Rope trick is performed in front of hundreds of people, who swear that they see something magical happening. But magic does not really happen, no matter who performs it. Unfortunately, I don't believe that miracles do either. I would love them to, I really would, but I do not believe that they do. If someone were to lose a hand and wake up the next day with a new hand, that would be a miracle, because it is not possible (with modern medicine). Miraculous recoveries from illnesses are wonderful, sometimes very difficult to explain, but not divine intervention by way of a miracle.

mezuzaj

Safehands wrote: »

Sunrise and sunset are two totally explainable events. Several thousand people, but not all people present, saw some form of illusion. That does not constitute a miracle. The Indian Rope trick is performed in front of hundreds of people, who swear that they see something magical happening. But magic does not really happen, no matter who performs it. Unfortunately, I don't believe that miracles do either. I would love them to, I really would, but I do not believe that they do. If someone were to lose a hand and wake up the next day with a new hand, that would be a miracle, because it is not possible (with modern medicine). Miraculous recoveries from illnesses are wonderful, sometimes very difficult to explain, but not divine intervention by way of a miracle.

Ok. But the Miracle of Fatima is not the basis of Fatima, its the message. I believe in Fatima because of its message, not its miracle.

lazybones32

Safehands wrote: »

Sunrise and sunset are two totally explainable events. Several thousand people, but not all people present, saw some form of illusion. That does not constitute a miracle. The Indian Rope trick is performed in front of hundreds of people, who swear that they see something magical happening. But magic does not really happen, no matter who performs it. Unfortunately, I don't believe that miracles do either. I would love them to, I really would, but I do not believe that they do. If someone were to lose a hand and wake up the next day with a new hand, that would be a miracle, because it is not possible (with modern medicine). Miraculous recoveries from illnesses are wonderful, sometimes very difficult to explain, but not divine intervention by way of a miracle.

Well, I'm not cutting a hair off my head for you, much less a hand...

newmug

We're going waaaaaaaaaaayyyy off thread here!


To sum up the latest argument, some lucky people have faith, some other people don't, and they'll be kicking themselves when they die or when science actually discovers proof of the supernatural dimension, whichever comes first.*




On-topic, the bottom line is that Russia is still acting the maggot. Maybe its a case of Fatima is right, maybe its a case of "a broken clock is right twice a day". We'll all find out soon enough anyway.








*(Given the discoveries in the last 50 years of how things at a quantum level actually DONT follow Newtonian laws of physics, I never cease to be amazed at the closed-mindedness of the very people who think they're more intelligent than the average Joe, especially if Joe is a religious type. Its irony and hypocrisy rolled into one. Science will eventually discover proof of the supernatural - its inevitable)

lazybones32

newmug wrote: »

Science will eventually discover proof of the supernatural - its inevitable)

Disagree with that one. Don't many of them approach a topic/subject with an attitude of "there must be a (insert scientific discipline here) reason for this" and if it isn't concluded to have been caused by physics, compression, etc; they chalk it down as inexplicable/inconclusive. Scientific Method by its very nature cannot accept that there is anything supernatural because everything must have a physical cause.

newmug

lazybones32 wrote: »

Disagree with that one. Don't many of them approach a topic/subject with an attitude of "there must be a (insert scientific discipline here) reason

Some do, but they shouldn't. REAL scientists don't.

lazybones32 wrote: »

Scientific Method by its very nature cannot accept that there is anything supernatural because everything must have a physical cause.

Nope. You can have a chemical cause, a biological cause, a psychological cause, an electromagnetic cause etc. Physics is just one branch of science, probably the most understood one at that. The supernatural definitely doesn't reside there. But quantum mechanics, now that's a frontier with some hidden surprises!



Its one for another thread. But, being an engineer myself, I can tell you that science doesn't exclude any possibility. Indeed, some of the things they have discovered recently are bizarre, they fly in the face of traditional thinking. Just google superstring theory. Stuff being in 2 places at once and all that. Sound familiar?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superstring_theory#Extra_dimensions




The more science discovers, the less likely it is that we are just a fluke of nature. The amount of things that would have had to go perfectly right just to get us to where we are is beyond statistically possible. Every single instant in time / action in space since the big bang would have had to work out with such precision that the odds would be infinite. And if it is all just a fluke, why didn't it repeat itself? The more science unfolds our make-up, the more obvious it is that there is a design in there. It may take 10 years, it may take 10,000 years, but someday the link between what we now call the "supernatural" (I think spiritual is a more accurate word for it) and the "natural" will become known.


I can fully understand the athiests who don't believe, purely because it actually IS hard to believe something that you don't have proof of. Sure the first atheist ever was one of the apostles, St.Thomas! No bother there lads. But its the arrogant ones, the militant-student types who think they've superior intelligence, and yet they cant see the hypocrisy of their own narrow-mindedness! Would yiz get off the pitch lads, just get off the feckin pitch!

lazybones32

newmug wrote: »

chemical cause, a biological cause, a psychological cause, an electromagnetic cause etc.

I had no intention of writing every possible cause.

I think they more we (humans) learn about our environment, the further away from Intelligent Design, we will be 'led'.
You have faith that human capacity will see the forest because of the trees. I don't.

Safehands

newmug wrote: »

Some do, but they shouldn't. REAL scientists don't.
Nope. You can have a chemical cause, a biological cause, a psychological cause, an electromagnetic cause etc. Physics is just one branch of science, probably the most understood one at that. The supernatural definitely doesn't reside there. But quantum mechanics, now that's a frontier with some hidden surprises!
Its one for another thread. But, being an engineer myself, I can tell you that science doesn't exclude any possibility. Indeed, some of the things they have discovered recently are bizarre, they fly in the face of traditional thinking. Just google superstring theory. Stuff being in 2 places at once and all that. Sound familiar?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superstring_theory#Extra_dimensions

The more science discovers, the less likely it is that we are just a fluke of nature. The amount of things that would have had to go perfectly right just to get us to where we are is beyond statistically possible. Every single instant in time / action in space since the big bang would have had to work out with such precision that the odds would be infinite. And if it is all just a fluke, why didn't it repeat itself? The more science unfolds our make-up, the more obvious it is that there is a design in there. It may take 10 years, it may take 10,000 years, but someday the link between what we now call the "supernatural" (I think spiritual is a more accurate word for it) and the "natural" will become known.
I can fully understand the athiests who don't believe, purely because it actually IS hard to believe something that you don't have proof of. Sure the first atheist ever was one of the apostles, St.Thomas! No bother there lads. But its the arrogant ones, the militant-student types who think they've superior intelligence, and yet they cant see the hypocrisy of their own narrow-mindedness! Would yiz get off the pitch lads, just get off the feckin pitch!

This is great stuff, can you bring it the "Athiest and existence of God" thread? We can discuss it there. We won't be allowed to discuss it here.

indy_man

"And while they speak of peace, they prepare for war with the most devastating implements to destroy peoples and nations. Russia with her secret armies will battle America; overrun Europe". -Sister Elena Aiello

hinault

Father Malachi Martin, speaking on radio about the Fatima prophecy in early 1990's, said that when he read the Fatima prophecy in 1960 there is specific mention made in the prophecy to...............Kiev.

Brian Shanahan

indy_man wrote: »

"And while they speak of peace, they prepare for war with the most devastating implements to destroy peoples and nations. Russia with her secret armies will battle America; overrun Europe". -Sister Elena Aiello

Again this "prophesy" like all others is so generalised as to be meaningless. Remember, remember, the fate of Croesus of Cilicia.

corkie

If anyone wants to discuss claims of prophecy relating to Russia or the alleged events at Fatima then this is the thread to do it.

@bennycake Posted above in thread.

Puzzle Pieces – Russia, Israel, Ukraine.

Published February 14, 2022 / preacherspoint

Does this Russia/Ukraine thing have anything to do with Bible prophecy? The short answer is – Indirectly yes.

For the long answer, one needs to turn to Ezekiel chapters 38-39. Because names of nations change over the years, there is a need to compare Biblical maps with current-day maps to see who the players are.

Alternative source referencing this is

Retired Evangelist Pat Robertson Says Putin Is Fulfilling Biblical Prophecy

If the above is taken literally, then things don't look good for Ukraine, if it is to be engulfed by Russia, so they jointly can go on to attack Israel.

{YouTube} Russia, Ukraine, World War III, and Bible Prophecy

corkie

As nobody responded with an alternative viewpoint of the above post.

The Judgment of Satan

7 When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—and to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore.9 They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God’s people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them.10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever. ~~ Revelation 20

And yes, I'm aware 'The Book of Revelation' is just a Christian rewrite of Old testament prophets. ~~ Link

Revelation contradicts 'Ezekiel' with the timing of the events.

Let’s be clear: Putin’s invasion of Ukraine is not about the rapture and Russia in biblical prophecy

About Former televangelist Pat Robertson

The Evangelist leader, who made similar claims of end times in 1976 and 1990, claimed that the conflict in Ukraine is the starting point for one of the great biblical armies that will gather for the end of times. ~~ Link

looksee

How does the quote you cited bear any relation to Russia? Or are you saying it doesn't?

I am not clear what is being argued here?

corkie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118723398#Comment_118723398

• Modern name (Biblical name).
• Russia (Magog).
• Ukraine (Gomer)

Plenty of christian youtube channels doing videos on Ezekiel chapters 38-39 at present.

smacl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118723618#Comment_118723618

Best source article I could see to support your argument is here, https://www.jpost.com/christianworld/article-699085 which lists the ancient (and rather dubious) geography as follows;

> Cush = North Sudan and Egypt

> Gomer = Ukraine

> Magog = Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan, Turkmenistan, Armenia, and Azerbaijan

> Persia = Iran

> Put = Libya

> Rosh = Russia

> Togarmah and Tubal = Turkey and Syria

We seem to see regular 'End of days' type speculation on this forum, I'd tend to agree with the conclusion of the linked article to avoid such speculation. Wikipedia discussion on Gog and Magog also notes in Genesis, Magog is described as a person rather than a place

In Genesis 10 Magog is described as a son of Japheth, grandson of Noah, although there is no mention there of a person named Gog. The name Magog itself is of obscure origin. It is often associated with Assyrian mat-Gugu, "Land of Gyges", i.e., Lydia.[7] Alternatively, Gog may be derived from Magog rather than the other way round, and "Magog" may be code for Babylon.

Hotblack Desiato

From 2014:

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/90315517/#Comment_90315517

The few predictions that haven't come true YET don't have much time to come to fruition, eg. the case of Joey Lomangino - Mary promised his sight would be restored before he dies, and that it would happen at a major supernatural event relating to her predictions - he's 83(?) now.

He died only a few weeks later (18/6/2014) but no mention of his death here.

corkie

Ezekiel 38 The word of the Lord came to me:2 “Son of man, set your face against Gog, of the land of Magog, the chief prince of[a] Meshek and Tubal; prophesy against him3 and say: ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: I am against you, Gog, chief prince of[b] Meshek and Tubal

Gog and Magog (/ˈɡoʊɡ ... ˈmɑːɡoʊɡ/; Hebrew: גּוֹג וּמָגוֹג, Gōg ū-Māgōg) appear in the Hebrew Bible and the Quran as individuals, tribes, or lands. In Ezekiel 38, Gog is an individual and Magog is his land;[1] in Genesis 10, Magog is a man and eponymous ancestor of a nation, but no Gog is mentioned; and centuries later Jewish tradition changed Ezekiel's "Gog from Magog" into "Gog and Magog"[2].

^^^ Wiki linked above.

The Day and Hour Unknown

Matthew 24:36 “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son,[f] but only the Father.

Are there biblically prophetic implications to Russia’s invasion of Ukraine—could it trigger War of Gog & Magog found in Ezekiel 38-39?

Amidst surging interest in the End Times, Joel C. Rosenberg recorded a new episode of his podcast to tackle these important questions

Ezekiel and revelation are speaking about different events (1000 years apart).

Hotblack Desiato

It should probably be pointed out that Pat Robertson is a deeply horrible person who not only preaches hatred, but has made many "prophecies" which have proven false.

corkie

Pope to hold consecration linked to 1917 prophecy for Russia and Ukraine

Pope Francis will consecrate Russia and Ukraine to the Immaculate Heart of Mary, the Vatican announced on Tuesday.

The Holy See press office said on March 15: “On Friday, March 25, during the Celebration of Penance at which he will preside at 5 p.m. in St. Peter’s Basilica, Pope Francis will consecrate Russia and Ukraine to the Immaculate Heart of Mary.”

“The same act, on the same day, will be carried out in Fatima by His Eminence Cardinal Krajewski, Apostolic Almoner, as envoy of the Holy Father.”

~~ Link.

I shall come to ask for the consecration of Russia to my Immaculate Heart....If my requests are heeded, Russia will be converted, and there will be peace. If not, she will spread her errors throughout the world, causing wars and persecutions of the Church. The good will be martyred, the Holy Father will have much to suffer, and various nations will be annihilated. In the end, my Immaculate Heart will triumph. The Holy Father will consecrate Russia to me, and she will be converted, and a period of peace will be granted to the world. ~~ Link

According to the last link, it has beem done before but not properly?

https://www.americamagazine.org/faith/2022/03/15/ukraine-russia-rosary-fatima-war-242596

https://chicago.suntimes.com/columnists/2022/3/4/22961793/christian-prophecy-ukraine-virgin-mary-volodymyr-zelenskyy-russia-war-kateryna-yushchenko-uchicago

On earlier postings,

> Rosh = Russia

There is debate over the use of 'Rosh' in the bible https://biblehub.com/ezekiel/38-2.htm

Different translations leave it out, or that it means 'Chief'/'First' as in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosh_Hashanah

Or connected to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kievan_Rus%27

Christian eschatologist have been putting out youtube videos lately on Ezekiel 38-39 and 'Gog & Magog'.

Based on how poorly Putin's 'Special Operation' is going for him, I don't see him attacking Israel anytime soon.

So 'Gog & Magog' war won't be happening now or in the near future.

corkie

Pope Francis’ Response to Ukraine Has Tapped Into One of Catholicism’s Deepest Conspiracy Theories

... Francis didn’t comply. His decision to do another consecration this month, however, didn’t come from pressure from Burke or the previous popes’ skeptics; it came from a plea from the bishops in Ukraine. “During this painful and difficult situation of war, we continued to pray, to celebrate the Holy Mass, to adore the Holy Sacrament, to fast and to offer our sufferings requesting God’s mercy. We were joined by the whole world in this, but we see that the war continues,” Archbishop Mieczysław Mokrzycki of Lviv, Ukraine, told the Catholic News Agency. “But Our Lady of Fatima in 1917 said that the consecration would be followed by a time of peace. That time of peace is over now, so we need to repeat the act of consecration of Russia and Ukraine. … We believe that this act will be listened to by Our Lady and she will intercede before God for peace in Ukraine.”

corkie

Pope Francis consecrates Russia, Ukraine to Immaculate Heart of Mary

“Dear sister, dear brother, if your sins frighten you, if your past worries you, if your wounds do not heal, if your constant failings dishearten you and you seem to have lost hope, do not be afraid,” Francis said early in his homily. “God knows your weaknesses and is greater than your mistakes.”

Referring to the ongoing Russian invasion of Ukraine, Francis said that today is a day in which the world knocks on the door of the Immaculate Heart of Mary to “renew to her the consecration of the Church and the whole of humanity, and to consecrate to her in a particular way the Ukrainian people and the Russian people who, with filial affection, venerate her as a Mother.”

The pope also pointed out that the consecration is not a “magic formula” but a “spiritual act,” of complete trust from children who, “amid the tribulation of this cruel and senseless war that threatens our world, turn to their Mother, reposing all their fears and pain in her heart and abandoning themselves to her.”

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EyDgHeoi0Yg

Scheduled for 17:30 GMT, but live now from St. Peter’s Basilica

Consecration happened at 1:45:00 in above video.

Hopefully the prayers help the situation in Ukraine.