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National Postcodes to be introduced

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    #2282
    Impetus
    Registered Users Posts: 1,667 ✭✭✭Impetus


    TheBustedFlush wrote: »
    Cork codes won't use C01 or even begin with the letter C, so they can't overlap.

    There is no mention of Cork postcode structure in the eircode.ie site - which makes me suspect that you have inside knowledge, or are part of this mess, or are just bluffing your way.
    TheBustedFlush wrote: »
    Cuban postal codes are 5 numbers only. They sometimes have a prefix of CP before them. The country code is CU.

    The UN country code for Cuba is C, like M for Malta and I for Italy, F for France etc. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_international_vehicle_registration_codes
    TheBustedFlush wrote: »
    German postcodes are 5 numbers only. The country code is DE.
    The ISO 3166 code for Germany is "DE". However the UN country code - which has been around for far longer and is the norm in mailing addresses is "D". The 3166 code "DE" can also be used.

    Britain tried to stop the use of country code prefixes to country codes, because their antiquated mail sorting machines kept mixing up British postcodes (eg B10 in Birmingham) with B1000 in Brussels. The British tail wagging the European and global dog.
    TheBustedFlush wrote: »
    Every other European country except the UK or Holland. If the postal code only points to a cluster of properties then it would be of very little use in Ireland given high proportion of no -number addresses (600k of them!)

    The Dutch postcode is broadly compatible with those in the rest of Europe - it uses 4 digits to define to below the postal district level. The last two letters define a group of about 20 buildings. If you construct a new house, chances are it has the same postcode as the other neighbouring houses.

    The high proportion of houses in Ireland with no addresses is a key issue. They all have to have proper road/street addresses with a street or road name and a building number. If a patient is suffering from a broken leg, there is no point in trying to give them cosmetic surgery to fix the broken leg. Eircode is cosmetic surgery done by somebody who hasn't a clue about medicine, surgery or cosmetic issues.
    TheBustedFlush wrote: »

    The eircode system belongs to the state already - it is operated under license only. It can only be sold by the State.

    Data from postcode databases is licensed/sold in many countries around the world including most of Europe, US, etc.

    This creates another costly burden for business users. Acquiring the license (cost) and cost of implementation and cleaning legacy addresses. And the cost and risk of updating systems - licensing costs for the regular update, staff costs, and the risk cost of getting an update wrong potentially messing an entire computer system on which a business relies. Most application software one buys already has space for normal postcodes.


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    #2283
    Leonard Shelby
    Closed Accounts Posts: 138 ✭✭Leonard Shelby


    Impetus wrote: »
    The norm virtually everywhere else in the world is an all numeric code where one can relate the numbering plan to different geographic areas. eg in Germany...
    Here we go again. Another late entrant with the same tired invalid arguments. Why don't they copy the system from <insert name of country here>
    Why don't they use all numbers?
    etc.

    There is a good reason why they haven't chosen any postcode systems from other countries that won't work here. Oops, I've given you the answer, they won't work here. Do at least 5 minutes of research, even just read back on this thread and educate yourself, this has been explained time and time again.

    Using letters and numbers instead of just letters makes the code shorter, that's the why.

    Writing automatic background updating software for systems using the postcode database is trivial. Just because you don't know it is
    and the cost and risk of updating systems - licensing costs for the regular update, staff costs, and the risk cost of getting an update wrong potentially messing an entire computer system on which a business relies.
    is simply a demonstration of your ignorance, not a valid objection.

    And the usual
    The high proportion of houses in Ireland with no addresses is a key issue. They all have to have proper road/street addresses with a street or road name and a building number.
    advocacy of ditching a simple, cost effective solution that doesn't change peoples addresses and thus will have immediate adoption with a complex, expensive solution that does change peoples addresses and thus will hinder adoption doesn't require further comment.

    You seem to be unaware how little you understand this topic. Please educate yourself, don't just repeat stuff you find in wikipedia articles.


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    #2284
    Impetus
    Registered Users Posts: 1,667 ✭✭✭Impetus


    Leonard Shelby wrote: »
    There is a good reason why they haven't chosen any postcode systems from other countries that won't work here. Oops, I've given you the answer, they won't work here. Do at least 5 minutes of research, even just read back on this thread and educate yourself, this has been explained time and time again.

    Please read my postings before commenting. There is no point in putting cosmetic surgery postcodes in an attempt to make Ireland's antiquated, post feudal address structure useful. You might as well randomize the floor numbers in an elevator - press 2 and it takes you to floor 15, press 3 and you end up in -1 parking garage etc.
    Leonard Shelby wrote: »

    Using letters and numbers instead of just letters makes the code shorter, that's the why.

    Letters and numbers cause machine (and human) character recognition problems. You can't un-ambiguously use a letter based code on a mobile phone or cash register numeric pad (without a lot of error-prone effort). There is no spatial relationship between codes involving letters.

    It is like the British telephone area code system which was based on the ABC phone dial. eg Newcastle in England was 0NE2 (0632) while Oban in Scotland was 0631. Two adjacent codes for two towns 394 km apart. The entire dogs dinner had to be changed with phone numbers in some cases changing three times - eg 01 London became 071 and 081 as they ran out of numbering space. This proved insufficient so they had to create an entirely new code again a few years later - 020.
    Leonard Shelby wrote: »
    Writing automatic background updating software for systems using the postcode database is trivial. Just because you don't know it is is simply a demonstration of your ignorance, not a valid objection.

    Don't be naive - you can't let an accounting or banking system (or anything else critical) to perform automatic updating from a third party in the background. The issue is fraught with security and data corruption risks.
    Leonard Shelby wrote: »
    And the usual
    advocacy of ditching a simple, cost effective solution that doesn't change peoples addresses and thus will have immediate adoption with a complex, expensive solution that does change peoples addresses and thus will hinder adoption doesn't require further comment.

    The eircode does involve change of address, with zero benefit to the addressee - ie the citizen. If instead they added a metric number to a property on a road running through a townland, the building would change from having a vague townland name to 300 TownlandName Road, followed by a four digit postcode pointing to the postal district in which the townland was located. If there are multiple roads in a townland, one could append for example North South East and West or some similar designation.

    Everybody else in the townland would have the same code. It would be a simple matter to remember the house number and the postcode for most people. And anyone who wanted access to a property specific ID number could subscribe to a database along the lines of the national geodirectory - https://www.geodirectory.ie.

    eircocde is re-inventing a well designed wheel needlessly, and duplicating the geodirectory, which cost a fortune to compile and which is the basis of the mail sorting system in Ireland. It smells to me of gross incompetence and perhaps worse!


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    #2285
    Leonard Shelby
    Closed Accounts Posts: 138 ✭✭Leonard Shelby


    Impetus wrote: »
    Letters and numbers cause machine (and human) character recognition problems. You can't un-ambiguously use a letter based code on a mobile phone or cash register numeric pad (without a lot of error-prone effort).
    Wow, you'd better ring the UK and explain to them how they can't use their postcodes then. Sigh.
    It is like the British telephone area code system which was based on the ABC phone dial. eg Newcastle in England was 0NE2 (0632) while Oban in Scotland was 0631. Two adjacent codes for two towns 394 km apart. The entire dogs dinner had to be changed with phone numbers in some cases changing three times - eg 01 London became 071 and 081 as they ran out of numbering space. This proved insufficient so they had to create an entirely new code again a few years later - 020.
    Don't fret, something as obvious and simple as this has probably been thought of. Sigh.
    Don't be naive - you can't let an accounting or banking system (or anything else critical) to perform automatic updating from a third party in the background. The issue is fraught with security and data corruption risks.
    No, knowledgeable. This is what happens, standard practice, day in day out. The fact you don't know anything about it is just proof of your ignorance.

    The eircode does involve change of address, with zero benefit to the addressee - ie the citizen. If instead they added a metric number to a property on a road running through a townland, the building would change from having a vague townland name to 300 TownlandName Road, followed by a four digit postcode pointing to the postal district in which the townland was located. If there are multiple roads in a townland, one could append for example North South East and West or some similar designation.

    Everybody else in the townland would have the same code. It would be a simple matter to remember the house number and the postcode for most people.
    Let me educate you. Asking people to add a postcode to the bottom of their address isn't an address change. Asking people to add a house number to the start of their address is an address change. The latter is ferociously resisted, the former readily adopted. Do I need to explain how human nature works?
    And anyone who wanted access to a property specific ID number could subscribe to a database along the lines of the national geodirectory -

    eircocde is re-inventing a well designed wheel needlessly, and duplicating the geodirectory, which cost a fortune to compile and which is the basis of the mail sorting system in Ireland. It smells to me of gross incompetence and perhaps worse!
    Wow, why didn't anyone think of that.....oh wait, they did. Eircode is using the geodirectory database.

    I think my concluding comment from my last post stands.


  • Options
    #2286
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    TheBustedFlush wrote: »
    I don't think that's accurate about the loc8 code, recedite. It doesn't have a last few digits, it has characters. And if you leave out the last few characters of a Loc8 code it's pretty much useless.
    See for yourself here. Choose whichever level of accuracy you want to give.
    A proper code is also concatenated, not random. Which means all adjacent zones are numbered predictably and are related to each other.


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    #2287
    ozmo
    Registered Users Posts: 3,853 ✭✭✭ozmo


    TheBustedFlush wrote: »
    I don't think that's accurate about the loc8 code, recedite. It doesn't have a last few digits, it has characters. And if you leave out the last few characters of a Loc8 code it's pretty much useless.

    Yeah Kinda- with the Loc8 code the characters get dropped from the middle


    http://www.myloc8ion.com/maps/find_code8

    Loc8 Code (House)      = W8L-82-4YK  
Locality (100m x 100m) = W8L-4YK
Zone (3.5Km x 3.5Km)   = W8L

    As already posted You can play with it here and see how it works:
    http://www.myloc8ion.com/maps/find_code8



    Heard some more info from the Capita uk arranged talks this week - mostly confirming what we know already but there is a lot of stuff they need work out still.




    Edit: sorry didnt see recedite et all responded already - Ill leave it here anyway.

    “Roll it back”



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    #2288
    TheBustedFlush
    Registered Users Posts: 254 ✭✭TheBustedFlush


    Impetus wrote: »
    There is no mention of Cork postcode structure in the eircode.ie site - which makes me suspect that you have inside knowledge, or are part of this mess, or are just bluffing your way.

    I was working off this from the website - "The Routing Key ... will always be a letter, followed by two numbers, except for D6W. The letters will not be linked to a county or city name .... Addresses ... in Dublin will use ...e.g., D03, D12, D15, D22.

    So C won't be Cork.

    The UN country code for Cuba is C, like M for Malta and I for Italy, F for France etc.
    The ISO 3166 code for Germany is "DE". However the UN country code - which has been around for far longer and is the norm in mailing addresses is "D". The 3166 code "DE" can also be used.

    So they won't be mixing up Cork with Cuba then or Caherdaniel, Clonshaugh, or even Cullahill on speeding tickets.
    The Dutch postcode is broadly compatible with those in the rest of Europe - it uses 4 digits to define to below the postal district level. The last two letters define a group of about 20 buildings. If you construct a new house, chances are it has the same postcode as the other neighbouring houses.

    Which is what we don't need in Ireland since there's 600k addresses that need to have different codes. All different and non-structured to avoid the kind of profiling and grouping beloved of demographic list companies.
    The high proportion of houses in Ireland with no addresses is a key issue.

    Well spotted. I think you'll get 100% agreement across the board on that one.
    This creates another costly burden for business users. Acquiring the license (cost) and cost of implementation and cleaning legacy addresses. And the cost and risk of updating systems - licensing costs for the regular update, staff costs, and the risk cost of getting an update wrong potentially messing an entire computer system on which a business relies. Most application software one buys already has space for normal postcodes.

    If businesses want to clean their databases and remove duplicate records in order to reduce their mailing costs, then that's a decision for them to make surely. And all postcode database services around the world operate on this basis - adding new records, and sending out updates. Only difference is that eircodes won't change for houses - they're fixed to the building and new developments won't cause existing codes to be changed, unlike code systems in other countries. so it'll be less costly to maintain.

    Mad isn't it Ted?


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    #2289
    TheBustedFlush
    Registered Users Posts: 254 ✭✭TheBustedFlush


    recedite wrote: »
    Choose whichever level of accuracy you want to give.
    A proper code is also concatenated, not random. Which means all adjacent zones are numbered predictably and are related to each other.

    Ok. Here was my experience based on your suggestion.

    I took the sample code offered from your website - W8L-82-4YK. I took away the last few characters as you suggested and got this: W8L-82.

    I put it into the site and came up with zilch. It gave me the message: "Error in LOC8 code format Loc8 Code is the wrong length - W8L82."

    Interestingly, I see you're building a database of restaurants, etc on the home page. As you start to enter in a code it prompts you with business addresses you've stored. Like this idea - hooking up a database to it makes sense, and would help prevent user errors.

    For example, by mistake I put in W6L824YK and it showed me a point on the map near a building and offered to put it into my satnav. 6 looks very like 8 on the website - poor design flaw - there was nothing to tell me what address I was looking at.

    I tried again and this time I got "isLoc8CodeValid ajax error"

    I tried again and the site hung.

    The code provides two arbitrary levels to look at before you get to house. They have no particular relevance to anything if I'm on the ground looking for an address. Nor does the second level somehow hide or blur the location of an address if you're looking at it online.

    I tried W7L-48-4XK as a code that identified an address on its own. I removed the "middle two characters" (not the last few as you said) and it put a helpful yellow box on the map with the same building highlighted in it. It could only refer to that one address so not much privacy with that format. It would work ok in urban areas, but poor in rural areas.

    Overall, I think it's too complicated, has some basic flaws (absence of address information), and has design kinks that need to be ironed out.


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    #2290
    Impetus
    Registered Users Posts: 1,667 ✭✭✭Impetus


    Use of database lookup for website / VDU postal address entry works even better with 4 digit codes. Take this Swiss Example.

    Start by entering "1003" in the postcode field (PLZ), it auto-fills the town name with “Lausanne”

    Enter “MO” – the first two letters of the street name in the street field, and it produces a dropdown list to choose from –

    MONNARD, RUE CHARLES-
    MONTBENON, AVENUE DE
    MORNEX, CHEMIN DE

    These are the only three streets/roads in 1003 Lausanne district beginning with "MO". You select the required street – let’s assume MORNEX, CHEMIN DE

    The application then moves you to the building number field. Let’s say you enter 42. The system could prompt you at that point with “INVALID BUILDING NUMBER, MAX NO IS 40”. You could be given the option of correcting a mistake, or doing a forced entry of 42 because you (in the case of web applications) or the other party on the phone confirms that it is a very new building, which is not yet in the version of the database you are working with. With metric addresses the min/max criteria might be the number of meters in the lenght of the road.

    You have entered the entire address with just 8 keystrokes – 1003 MO and 42, ignoring the use of the arrow key to select the street/road name in the event of there being more than one street/road beginning with MO. Furthermore the address will be accurate and verified. It can store the unique building number from the database “30350100042” – which is made up of the unique street number and building number – eg used for statistical analysis or other backoffice applications. This allows standard unique building numbers to be created by the user based on the verified street/road name and building number.

    The underlying database is composed of two tables a postcode table and a road/street table. Freely downloadable from the Swiss Post website.

    I have converted the street and postcode databases into excel format, (which can be imported into a database, accounting system or other application). (This link will no longer work after 22.5.2014)

    Every bit of the system is transparent, easy to understand and it creates a clean address structure which minimises sorting and routing delays (and helps reduce / eliminate fraudulently invented addresses).

    Download links:

    http://chilp.it/02ebad
    http://chilp.it/ea3a70


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    #2291
    Leonard Shelby
    Closed Accounts Posts: 138 ✭✭Leonard Shelby


    Impetus wrote: »
    Use of database lookup for website / VDU postal address entry works even better with 4 digit codes. Take this Swiss Example.

    Start by entering "1003" in the postcode field (PLZ), it auto-fills the town name with “Lausanne”

    Enter “MO” – the first two letters of the street name in the street field, and it produces a dropdown list to choose from –

    MONNARD, RUE CHARLES-
    MONTBENON, AVENUE DE
    MORNEX, CHEMIN DE

    These are the only three streets/roads in 1003 Lausanne district beginning with "MO". You select the required street – let’s assume MORNEX, CHEMIN DE

    The application then moves you to the building number field. Let’s say you enter 42. The system could prompt you at that point with “INVALID BUILDING NUMBER, MAX NO IS 40”. You could be given the option of correcting a mistake, or doing a forced entry of 42 because you (in the case of web applications) or the other party on the phone confirms that it is a very new building, which is not yet in the version of the database you are working with. With metric addresses the min/max criteria might be the number of meters in the lenght of the road.

    You have entered the entire address with just 8 keystrokes – 1003 MO and 42, ignoring the use of the arrow key to select the street/road name in the event of there being more than one street/road beginning with MO. Furthermore the address will be accurate and verified. It can store the unique building number from the database “30350100042” – which is made up of the unique street number and building number – eg used for statistical analysis or other backoffice applications. This allows standard unique building numbers to be created by the user based on the verified street/road name and building number.

    The underlying database is composed of two tables a postcode table and a road/street table. Freely downloadable from the Swiss Post website.

    I have converted the street and postcode databases into excel format, (which can be imported into a database, accounting system or other application). (This link will no longer work after 22.5.2014)

    Every bit of the system is transparent, easy to understand and it creates a clean address structure which minimises sorting and routing delays (and helps reduce / eliminate fraudulently invented addresses).

    Download links:

    http://chilp.it/02ebad
    http://chilp.it/ea3a70
    The Swiss system works wonderfully, in Switzerland. Won't work here. Enter 7 character eircode and job done.


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    #2292
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    ozmo wrote: »
    Yeah Kinda- with the Loc8 code the characters get dropped from the middle
    http://www.myloc8ion.com/maps/find_code8

    Loc8 Code (House)      = W8L-82-4YK  
Locality (100m x 100m) = W8L-4YK
Zone (3.5Km x 3.5Km)   = W8L

    As already posted You can play with it here and see how it works:
    http://www.myloc8ion.com/maps/find_code8
    Yes, very simple to choose different levels of accuracy.
    TheBustedFlush wrote: »
    Ok. Here was my experience....

    I put it into the site and came up with zilch....

    .... 6 looks very like 8 ...

    I tried again and this time I got "isLoc8CodeValid ajax error"

    I tried again and the site hung....

    Overall, I think it's too complicated, has some basic flaws (absence of address information), and has design kinks that need to be ironed out.
    There are none so blind as those who refuse to see, and you're just acting the eejit again deliberately. You are unfairly trying to trash someone else's work just because its better than yours.
    Its not my website BTW; I have nothing to do with Loc8.


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    #2293
    TheBustedFlush
    Registered Users Posts: 254 ✭✭TheBustedFlush


    recedite wrote: »
    Yes, very simple to choose different levels of accuracy.


    There are none so blind as those who refuse to see, and you're just acting the eejit again deliberately. You are unfairly trying to trash someone else's work just because its better than yours.
    Its not my website BTW; I have nothing to do with Loc8.

    I haven't created a code - you recommended that one to me - telling me that you could drop the last few characters and it would be useful. It wasn't. How is that unfair?

    I just called you on two statements you made that were inaccurate - you're oddly defensive about some valid criticisms of it for someone not involved.

    However, it's not something to get hung up about - all code systems have pluses and minuses.


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    #2294
    Impetus
    Registered Users Posts: 1,667 ✭✭✭Impetus


    Leonard Shelby wrote: »
    The Swiss system works wonderfully, in Switzerland. Won't work here. Enter 7 character eircode and job done.

    1) No it is not done. While one can easily someone's postcode with 4 digits - eg 1004 = Dublin 4, it is far more difficult to remember D04 U2HG.

    2) There is no logic to U2HG. It is random. 114 Merrion Road is logical and findable and more user-friendly.

    3) Letters are pronounced differently in each European language. eg CH is Swiss is pronounced "see ha". In French is it pronounced "see ash" Try calling your address out with a new Eircode to someone who is not a native English speaker. This will lead to a large number of errors.

    4) Numeric postcodes go before the town name as standard. This makes them easier to identify and recognize in machine reading applications. A/n codes as used in GB and CDN are typically put after the name of the town which reduces machine recognition-ability.

    5) You will have to buy a database of eircodes and pay for an update subscription and have all the issues loading the updated codes into your computer system. Not with the Swiss system I outlined. Creating a sub-optimal postcode system which requires people to buy licenses for a country's postcode system, borders on corruption. Especially when one or more consultants and implementing companies are involved. A corrupt bureaucracy.

    6) Entering a 7 character code is less likely to produce a correct lookup - compared with somebody calling out their address and someone else keyboarding it in.

    7) One can give one's postcode in a shop when buying something, to enable the shop to discover where its customers live. While I would have no problem giving 8004 as my postcode, I would not give them ZH04 J7WQ - if the Swiss has similar disregard for peoples' right to privacy.

    Perhaps you should disclose your driving issue for these types of postings?

    either (a) you get €€€ from eircode one way or another (eg employee or consultant etc)

    (b) you have difficulty with comprehension of simple ideas.

    As they say KISS - keep it simple, stupid.

    It seems to me that the designers of this "system" did not do a good job for the country. [understatement mode=on].

    This is a tyrannical, Iran style postcode, invented by the public "service" to suit alleged statistical needs. Needlessly so, because the Swiss system of four digits with clean addressing provides pinpoint accuracy - down to 1 map metre grid reference if required, via a lookup table.

    Ireland pays huge salaries and pensions to public servants - some of the highest in the world. Their work often gets outsourced to consultants at great cost, and the combined platform invariably delivers a dogs dinner in terms of quality of product/service.


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    #2295
    Impetus
    Registered Users Posts: 1,667 ✭✭✭Impetus


    ozmo wrote: »
    Loc8 Code (House)      = W8L-82-4YK  
Locality (100m x 100m) = W8L-4YK
Zone (3.5Km x 3.5Km)   = W8L
    As already posted You can play with it here and see how it works:
    http://www.myloc8ion.com/maps/find_code8

    You shouldn't use symbols (eg "-") or punctuation marks on an envelope address. All the address elements should be in upper case to minimise the need for manual intervention in automated address recognition.

    This coding system looks like an alpha-numericization of a grid reference. The sub-units are effectively multiples of grid squares and have nothing to do with the administrative or infrastructural layout of a country.

    When post is sorted, the address is scanned, and converted into a grid reference for the delivery address, accurate to the nearest meter. This allows post to be sorted in order of delivery address etc. However sorting is not based on solely reading the postcode* - the entire address has to be matched to a valid delivery address on the national address database. This eliminates mis-reading of any element of the address, including the postcode. There is no point therefore in creating a "postcode" from co-ordinates, anymore than saying my home/office is at 53.220565; -6.659308 (lat/long).

    *Except in the obsolete 50 year old legacy system used by Royal Mail.


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    #2296
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    TheBustedFlush wrote: »
    - you recommended that one to me - telling me that you could drop the last few characters and it would be useful. It wasn't. How is that unfair?
    I didn't realise you were going to be so pedantic about it. I should have said "drop the minor characters" or some such.
    The same thing applies with a national grid reference or any kind of geo-coordinates, you don't just drop half the digits off the longitude and expect to have a valid result. What you can normally do is drop the minor ones from both longitude and latitude, effectively "moving the decimal point" along to make it less accurate.

    What you have actually proven is that Loc8 has a structure which is not random and therefore you just cannot just make up a loc8 code easily. This supports the need for real validation in a publicly usable code so that a code is not just blindly accepted, so the person using it at the start of the chain is the one that finds out there is a problem, before it is too late.

    A mainly random code like eircode, can only be validated by reference to a database and by address comparison at the same time - which is expensive and maintains the same ambiguity we have now with addresses, but with an ambiguous "code" also added on.

    Loc8 is not a commutable code either - i.e. you cannot try an eircode in Loc8 supported facilities and come up with a location! Unfortunately random or randomly generated codes such as eircode, gocode or openpcode are all interchangeable with each other and very often one generating a wrong position from the other - eircode has not managed to rise above the noise that the vacuum of the 11 years of delay and indecision has caused ;)

    6 v 8 similarity is not a recognised issue in a public code but randomness is!

    You were searching for hotels/restaurants - because they opted to be non domestic codes and to be searchable - this is not the case for domestic codes - this is where privacy and data protection comes in.

    Loc8 as a voluntary free service does not have (or need) access to geodirectory to deliver a code to everyone but on the other hand its flexibility and proven capability (4 years in use) makes it superior. If Loc8 became a state backed national address code it would probably be delivered in a different way, perhaps linked to an searchable database, depending on what the Data Protection requirements might be.

    You can try to break it all you want, but Loc8 was tested and proven with emergency services before launch and has been 4 years in use for public safety applications without an issue! Eircode doesn't even plan to test its code!

    If you have any further questions why not contact Loc8 to get clarifications - if the site hung when you were trying to break it, then have the courtesy to report it to Loc8 themselves.

    The structure of Loc8 is well thought out, and those of us using it understand exactly how it works.


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    #2297
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    Impetus wrote: »
    ozmo wrote: »
    Loc8 Code (House)      = W8L-82-4YK  
Locality (100m x 100m) = W8L-4YK
Zone (3.5Km x 3.5Km)   = W8L
    As already posted You can play with it here and see how it works:
    http://www.myloc8ion.com/maps/find_code8

    You shouldn't use symbols (eg "-") or punctuation marks on an envelope address. All the address elements should be in upper case to minimise the need for manual intervention in automated address recognition.
    That - dash - is only a convention, if you were actually using it you would just enter the digits straight into a sat-nav without any spaces or dashes.
    Same as you would enter the phone number (087)61828xx into a phone without using any brackets.
    Impetus wrote: »
    This coding system looks like an alpha-numericization of a grid reference. The sub-units are effectively multiples of grid squares and have nothing to do with the administrative or infrastructural layout of a country.
    You have observed the basis for it there, but also there is a lot more too.
    Concatenation of grids, error checking digits, avoidance of confusion between O and 0, and the avoidance of codes that might spell rude words :)

    I see the electoral boundaries are changing again for these next elections. Parish boundaries change. Infastructure changes; roads and bridges get built.
    If you want a fixed reference point it has to be based on geo-cordinates.


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    #2298
    TheBustedFlush
    Registered Users Posts: 254 ✭✭TheBustedFlush


    recedite wrote: »

    What you have actually proven is that Loc8 has a structure which is not random and therefore you just cannot just make up a loc8 code easily. This supports the need for real validation in a publicly usable code so that a code is not just blindly accepted, so the person using it at the start of the chain is the one that finds out there is a problem, before it is too late. .....

    Loc8 is not a commutable code either - i.e. you cannot try an eircode in Loc8 supported facilities and come up with a location! Unfortunately random or randomly generated codes such as eircode, gocode or openpcode are all interchangeable with each other and very often one generating a wrong position from the other - eircode has not managed to rise above the noise that the vacuum of the 11 years of delay and indecision has caused ;)

    6 v 8 similarity is not a recognised issue in a public code but randomness is!

    You were searching for hotels/restaurants - because they opted to be non domestic codes and to be searchable - this is not the case for domestic codes - this is where privacy and data protection comes in.

    Loc8 as a voluntary free service does not have (or need) access to geodirectory to deliver a code to everyone but on the other hand its flexibility and proven capability (4 years in use) makes it superior. If Loc8 became a state backed national address code it would probably be delivered in a different way, perhaps linked to an searchable database, depending on what the Data Protection requirements might be.

    You can try to break it all you want, but Loc8 was tested and proven with emergency services before launch and has been 4 years in use for public safety applications without an issue! Eircode doesn't even plan to test its code!

    If you have any further questions why not contact Loc8 to get clarifications - if the site hung when you were trying to break it, then have the courtesy to report it to Loc8 themselves.

    The structure of Loc8 is well thought out, and those of us using it understand exactly how it works.

    You know what you should do, recedite? Apply for the job of Sales Manager to Loc 8 - you're a cinch for it. :)


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    #2299
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Impetus wrote: »

    *Except in the obsolete 50 year old legacy system used by Royal Mail.
    I don't understand why some people believe that the UK postcode system is obsolete as it is in constant use and does what it was intended to do!

    Yes, it's a legacy system just like 230v 50hz is the legacy voltage in houses, but it does the job it was intended to do even if there are better* ways to do it now.

    *depends of your definition of better.


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    #2300
    TheBustedFlush
    Registered Users Posts: 254 ✭✭TheBustedFlush


    Deleted User wrote: »
    I don't understand why some people believe that the UK postcode system is obsolete as it is in constant use and does what it was intended to do!

    Yes, it's a legacy system just like 230v 50hz is the legacy voltage in houses, but it does the job it was intended to do even if there are better* ways to do it now.

    *depends of your definition of better.

    Yep - that's very sensible thinking.


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    #2301
    Impetus
    Registered Users Posts: 1,667 ✭✭✭Impetus


    recedite wrote: »
    That - dash - is only a convention, if you were actually using it you would just enter the digits straight into a sat-nav without any spaces or dashes.
    Same as you would enter the phone number (087)61828xx into a phone without using any brackets.

    It is not for reasons of convention to remove punctuation marks from an address label or envelope. The reason is that punctuation marks can be mis-interpreted in the scanning process to mean letters or numbers.
    recedite wrote: »
    You have observed the basis for it there, but also there is a lot more too.
    Concatenation of grids, error checking digits, avoidance of confusion between O and 0, and the avoidance of codes that might spell rude words :)
    There is no risk of rude words with an all numeric postcode.
    recedite wrote: »
    I see the electoral boundaries are changing again for these next elections. Parish boundaries change. Infastructure changes; roads and bridges get built.
    If you want a fixed reference point it has to be based on geo-cordinates.

    What have electoral boundaries or parish boundaries got to do with postcodes. Dublin 4's boundary would not be changed as a result of changes in constituency or parish boundaries. It is just a natural boundary for part of the city in question.

    This topic is full of confused thinking!


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    #2302
    TheBustedFlush
    Registered Users Posts: 254 ✭✭TheBustedFlush


    Impetus wrote: »
    It is not for reasons of convention to remove punctuation marks from an address label or envelope. The reason is that punctuation marks can be mis-interpreted in the scanning process to mean letters or numbers.

    There is no risk of rude words with an all numeric postcode.



    What have electoral boundaries or parish boundaries got to do with postcodes. Dublin 4's boundary would not be changed as a result of changes in constituency or parish boundaries. It is just a natural boundary for part of the city in question.

    This topic is full of confused thinking!

    Please present your proposals for how an all-numeric postcode would work in Ireland, taking into account that you must identify each address uniquely. Optional choice as to whether you identify apartments in multi-unit buildings.

    Natural boundary??? How do you define the arbitrary boundary of a Dublin postal area? And what will be the boundaries of all the new ones? Recedite is correct - the geo-coordinates of a property are what remain fixed. The allocation of a building to one area or another is what ultimately defines its area code/routingkey/etc etc, particularly around the periphery - in essence, there are no borders or boundaries. Grid based codes linked to geocoordinates set their own boundaries and a property is either in one code area or another - there is no choice.


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    #2303
    Impetus
    Registered Users Posts: 1,667 ✭✭✭Impetus


    Deleted User wrote: »
    I don't understand why some people believe that the UK postcode system is obsolete as it is in constant use and does what it was intended to do!

    The British postcode system is obsolete because it was designed when computing power was expensive and in typical British fashion is totally at odds with the system used in the rest of Europe. Despite its complex structure its resolution is limited to pointing to about 25 buildings. Mail sorting and most forms of address usage are international quantities.

    Postal sorting equipment sold over the past 10 years or more do not sort by postcode - because it is inaccurate in terms of recognition accuracy and typos. If you enter AB23 4GU into a website or computer application based on the British system you will still have to enter the building number or house name, and sometimes even select the street. The British address structure is long and very often does not fit in the address space used in most computer systems used in the rest of Europe or the US.

    For every postal address one only needs

    Building number STREET NAME
    POSTCODE TOWN/CITY NAME

    In a properly organised system that is enough to find an address. Anything more is gilding the lily.

    The British has a similar non-standard problem with phone numbers way back. The area code was not published in the phone book - because each number's area code varied depending on where you were calling from. There was no national area code. In Ireland, area codes have always been standard and regionally grouped - eg 021 Cork City 022 Mallow 023 Bandon 024 Youghal 025 Fermoy etc. One of the English area codes for an area was usually based on the alpha numeric dial - eg Newcastle was 0NE2 (0632). This all had to be dumped.

    It seems to me that the powers that be in Ireland and Britain are mentally deficient when it comes to organising things simply and effectively!
    You will experience the same typos with the eircode system, because they constitute a meaningless complex jumble of alpha and numeric characters.
    Deleted User wrote: »
    Yes, it's a legacy system just like 230v 50hz is the legacy voltage in houses, but it does the job it was intended to do even if there are better* ways to do it now.

    The British use 230 VAC 50Hz as a result of an EU directive. However they use 3 pin flat plugs that are totally different from those used in the rest of Europe. Result - the Brits have heavy clumpy mobile phone chargers to pack, and they need an adapter to charge their PC when travelling outside the country. A situation copied by another mal-administered colony next door!


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    #2304
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    Impetus wrote: »
    What have electoral boundaries or parish boundaries got to do with postcodes...This topic is full of confused thinking!
    You appeared to be complaining that loc8 codes took no notice of the various administrative areas, not to mention the various administrations... :)
    Impetus wrote: »
    This coding system looks like an alpha-numericization of a grid reference. The sub-units are effectively multiples of grid squares and have nothing to do with the administrative or infrastructural layout of a country.


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    #2305
    Impetus
    Registered Users Posts: 1,667 ✭✭✭Impetus


    TheBustedFlush wrote: »
    Please present your proposals for how an all-numeric postcode would work in Ireland, taking into account that you must identify each address uniquely. Optional choice as to whether you identify apartments in multi-unit buildings.

    I have already done that in http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=90425678&postcount=2290

    In the case of multi-occupancy buildings - eg apartment buildings, you proceed as follows:

    eg: In a group/estate of apartment blocks - let's assume 5 blocks of buildings with 15 stories and 5 apartments per floor.

    a: Give the apartment cluster a street/road name.
    b: Assign a block number to each building
    c: Assign a four or five digit apartment number to each apartment - which is made up of the block number + the floor number (00 to 15) and the apartment number (1 to 5) on that floor.

    Thus something called Amazon House, Amazon Estate Apt 25 now might be called 2125 Amazon Road 0000 ANYTOWN

    One or more street signs for Amazon Road is installed, and the block numbers are clearly signposted for each building.

    In relation to business parks and similar, Cork Airport Business Park is a good model. Each avenue of the park has a name eg Avenue 1000. All the units on Avenue 1000 are numbered within the 1000-1999 range. Thus a building might be 1200 Avenue 1000. If there were a number of companies in the 1200 building - each suite of offices etc could be allocated numbering in the 1200 to 1299 range.

    Map: http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=16/51.8496/-8.4868
    TheBustedFlush wrote: »

    Natural boundary??? How do you define the arbitrary boundary of a Dublin postal area? And what will be the boundaries of all the new ones? Recedite is correct - the geo-coordinates of a property are what remain fixed. The allocation of a building to one area or another is what ultimately defines its area code/routingkey/etc etc, particularly around the periphery - in essence, there are no borders or boundaries. Grid based codes linked to geocoordinates set their own boundaries and a property is either in one code area or another - there is no choice.
    In Dublin and Cork it is based on postal districts as they now exist. You have district delivery offices and each office delivers to a defined set of roads and streets.

    In a small country town, all it needs is a single geographic postcode in most cases. A boundary line needs to be drawn from a postcode perspective between one town's catchment area and another. There is no reason for that boundary line to move unless a town of 400 people turns into a city of 80,000 people - where it may need to be broken up into two districts. But you will face that extreme problem, should it ever occur, with any coding system.


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    #2306
    TheBustedFlush
    Registered Users Posts: 254 ✭✭TheBustedFlush


    Impetus wrote: »
    In the case of multi-occupancy buildings - eg apartment buildings, you proceed as follows:

    eg: In a group/estate of apartment blocks - let's assume 5 blocks of buildings with 15 stories and 5 apartments per floor.

    a: Give the apartment cluster a street/road name.
    b: Assign a block number to each building
    c: Assign a four or five digit apartment number to each apartment - which is made up of the block number + the floor number (00 to 15) and the apartment number (1 to 5) on that floor.

    Thus something called Amazon House, Amazon Estate Apt 25 now might be called 2125 Amazon Road 0000 ANYTOWN

    One or more street signs for Amazon Road is installed, and the block numbers are clearly signposted for each building.

    In relation to business parks and similar, Cork Airport Business Park is a good model. Each avenue of the park has a name eg Avenue 1000. All the units on Avenue 1000 are numbered within the 1000-1999 range. Thus a building might be 1200 Avenue 1000. If there were a number of companies in the 1200 building - each suite of offices etc could be allocated numbering in the 1200 to 1299 range.

    In Dublin and Cork it is based on postal districts as they now exist. You have district delivery offices and each office delivers to a defined set of roads and streets.

    In a small country town, all it needs is a single geographic postcode in most cases. A boundary line needs to be drawn from a postcode perspective between one town's catchment area and another. There is no reason for that boundary line to move unless a town of 400 people turns into a city of 80,000 people - where it may need to be broken up into two districts. But you will face that extreme problem, should it ever occur, with any coding system.

    Interesting proposal. Did you think of submitting it for the postcode system?


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    #2307
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Impetus wrote: »
    The British ....
    . A situation copied by another mal-administered colony next door!

    Sounds like you just don't like anything that was developed in the UK. :rolleyes:


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    #2308
    TheBustedFlush
    Registered Users Posts: 254 ✭✭TheBustedFlush


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Sounds like you just don't like anything that was developed in the UK. :rolleyes:

    Or Cork: :)


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    #2309
    Impetus
    Registered Users Posts: 1,667 ✭✭✭Impetus


    TheBustedFlush wrote: »
    Interesting proposal. Did you think of submitting it for the postcode system?


    Oh yes I did document the matter in great detail to the "powers that be", on multiple occasions, over the years, to governments of various complexions in their period of power. Only for it to fall on deaf ears - probably because I am not politically involved or connected or whatever. I didn't invent this system. Variations of it are the norm in most continental countries.

    I suspect I was outnumbered by the overpaid bureaucrats who were obsessed with adding a serial number to everything, Iran style. Most politicians and civil servants never lived outside of Ireland, and those that did typically lived in English speaking countries (that Ireland largely copies). As a result they have not experienced best practice, and waste huge amounts of money creating half baked systems re-inventing the wheel, needlessly and wastefully.


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    #2310
    Impetus
    Registered Users Posts: 1,667 ✭✭✭Impetus


    TheBustedFlush wrote: »
    Or Cork: :)

    It is the most obvious place for the area code numbering (the only county with a large number of area codes beginning with 02) and I don't know of any business park that has logical addressing for its roads and buildings aside from the one in Cork Airport.


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    #2311
    TheBustedFlush
    Registered Users Posts: 254 ✭✭TheBustedFlush


    Impetus wrote: »
    Oh yes I did document the matter in great detail to the "powers that be", on multiple occasions, over the years, to governments of various complexions in their period of power. Only for it to fall on deaf ears - probably because I am not politically involved or connected or whatever. I didn't invent this system. Variations of it are the norm in most continental countries.

    I suspect I was outnumbered by the overpaid bureaucrats who were obsessed with adding a serial number to everything, Iran style. Most politicians and civil servants never lived outside of Ireland, and those that did typically lived in English speaking countries (that Ireland largely copies). As a result they have not experienced best practice, and waste huge amounts of money creating half baked systems re-inventing the wheel, needlessly and wastefully.

    Yes - well putting the tiny violins aside for a moment (at some point in our lives we all believe we've been ignored for our genius :) ) - did you submit it to the Govt for the postcode tender?


This discussion has been closed.
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