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Season 4 Episode 3 "Breaker of Chains": *HAVE NOT NOT NOT* read the books

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Comments

  • #182
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Eoghan S wrote: »
    But if you can look cool AND defeat the champion in front of his entire city, would you really care what people thought of you? :P
    Did you not notice how they fired the arrows at him afterwards anyway?
    Yes, that's because they didn't feel he'd defeated his opponent in any kind of combat like those kinds of duels were meant to be, so they tried to kill him in retaliation. All this says is "we have to cheat to match your warriors." to me.


  • #183
    Witcher
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,291 ✭✭✭✭Witcher


    Guy was going to lose either way really, Barristan Selmy would have just floored him off the horse with a lance anyway so it makes no difference really.

    No city is going to stake their survival on the skills of a single warrior, even Troy didn't open its gates when Hector died. It was just a pissing contest really, no pun intended:pac:


  • #184
    norrie rugger
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,656 ✭✭✭norrie rugger


    not to the slaves though


  • #185
    Artful_Badger
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,339 ✭✭✭Artful_Badger


    Blay wrote: »
    Guy was going to lose either way really, Barristan Selmy would have just floored him off the horse with a lance anyway so it makes no difference really.

    No city is going to stake their survival on the skills of a single warrior, even Troy didn't open it's gates when Hector died.

    Hector wasn't sent out as a champion (not in the Iliad anyway) but I'd agree the outcome of the duel wasn't going to be the deciding factor in the war so to speak.


  • #186
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Artful_Badger wrote: »
    Hector wasn't sent out as a champion (not in the Iliad anyway) but I'd agree the outcome of the duel wasn't going to be the deciding factor in the war so to speak.
    It's not a deciding factor except as to how it relates to the morale of the troops. If the guys in the city see their champion get utterly battered (Troy) then they'll think oh, that's what they've got. If they guys in the city see a guy using missile weapons to kill a horse they'll probably think oh, they can't take our troops on directly.
    That's the whole point of the duel of champions surely.


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  • #187
    Witcher
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,291 ✭✭✭✭Witcher


    They can see 8000 Unsullied outside the city, I'd say it's obvious Dany's army could take care of business without cheating:pac:


  • #188
    thefa
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,181 ✭✭✭thefa


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    It's not a deciding factor except as to how it relates to the morale of the troops. If the guys in the city see their champion get utterly battered (Troy) then they'll think oh, that's what they've got. If they guys in the city see a guy using missile weapons to kill a horse they'll probably think oh, they can't take our troops on directly.
    That's the whole point of the duel of champions surely.
    I think it would be more logical for them to look on and be worried at how quickly their mounted champion was dispatched.


  • #189
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    thefa wrote: »
    I think it would be more logical for them to look on and be worried at how quickly their mounted champion was dispatched.
    Not really if they see can he clearly wasn't defeated in the normal course of a single combat duel. All this says to me is "we can't fight ye in single combat, we need to cheat to have any chance."


  • #190
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Blay wrote: »
    They can see 8000 Unsullied outside the city, I'd say it's obvious Dany's army could take care of business without cheating:pac:
    Meereen_HBO.jpg
    Jeez, I dunno. 8,000 looks a bit piddling to lay siege to a city that size with walls like that. I wouldn't fancy their chances without a slave revolt.


  • #191
    Witcher
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,291 ✭✭✭✭Witcher


    You should watch the trailer for the next episode.


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  • #192
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Blay wrote: »
    You should watch the trailer for the next episode.
    OK, so they going to sow some seeds of revolution inside the city. Fair enough. As I said though, 8,000 men of any sort isn't enough to take a city that size directly, unless they're all The Hound or something...
    In fact, if I was running that city I'd face Dany on the field ASAP. Just talking tactics, ta know. :D


  • #193
    K_user
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,041 ✭✭✭K_user


    MadYaker wrote: »
    To be fair the other guy was on a horse and had a lance. I think he was just evening out the playing field by removing the horse from the equation.

    :D

    Exactly. The guy on the horse had no issue with charging a standing target, therefore it was fair game.


  • #194
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    K_user wrote: »
    :D

    Exactly. The guy on the horse had no issue with charging a standing target, therefore it was fair game.
    Dany offered him a horse, and the other guy waited for him to get one before charging. It was pretty clear to everybody involved what the normal rules were for a duel of champions.


  • #195
    K_user
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,041 ✭✭✭K_user


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    Yes, that's because they didn't feel he'd defeated his opponent in any kind of combat like those kinds of duels were meant to be, so they tried to kill him in retaliation. All this says is "we have to cheat to match your warriors." to me.

    This wasn't a duel in the normal sense. It was a test of skill. A pi$$ing contest, as someone else pointed out.

    Selmy might have been more gentlemanly about it, but the goal was to win. Two warriors, the best they have to offer, lets see what happens.

    The arrows were actually more of an affront. Their champion was defeated by Danys man alone. The arrows were a genuine attempt at revenge.


  • #196
    norrie rugger
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,656 ✭✭✭norrie rugger


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    Not really if they see can he clearly wasn't defeated in the normal course of a single combat duel. All this says to me is "we can't fight ye in single combat, we need to cheat to have any chance."

    more like 'screw this, we will beat you fast and by any means'


  • #197
    K_user
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,041 ✭✭✭K_user


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    Dany offered him a horse, and the other guy waited for him to get one before charging. It was pretty clear to everybody involved what the normal rules were for a duel of champions.

    A city that has dead slaves positioned every mile for over 100 miles aren't exactly "normal", or likely to be concerned with chivalry.

    Their champion declared that Dany was a man with his c@#k up her a$$. This was their opening negotiation gambit. No flag of truce. No diplomats. Just a man pi$$ing in the sand.


    The first rule of combat is to win. He won, against a charging horse and lance.


  • #198
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    If the objective was purely to kill the opponent in the duel by any means you'd find both sides would come out with a crate of loaded crossbows!


  • #199
    norrie rugger
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,656 ✭✭✭norrie rugger


    No one asked them to send out a champion, who pissed at their queen, and no rules of engagement were agreed upon. Now unless you have something that was not on screen then saying that they cheated is pure speculation.
    Also should you challenge someone to a duel, they choose the method


  • #200
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    norrie rugger wrote: »
    more like 'screw this, we will beat you fast and by any means'
    Nope, if that was the objective then they'd just have everybody throw spears at their champion as soon as he came out.


  • #201
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    norrie rugger wrote: »
    No one asked them to send out a champion, who pissed at their queen, and no rules of engagement were agreed upon. Now unless you have something that was not on screen then saying that they cheated is pure speculation.
    Also should you challenge someone to a duel, they choose the method
    I'd bet money it doesn't happen like that not n the books. It's like Indy shooting the swordsman, pure Hollywood cool factor the overriding objective. Dany knew the rules, in fact everyone knew the rules or they would have just killed him and not had the duel at all.


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  • #202
    K_user
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,041 ✭✭✭K_user


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    OK, so they going to sow some seeds of revolution inside the city. Fair enough. As I said though, 8,000 men of any sort isn't enough to take a city that size directly, unless they're all The Hound or something...
    In fact, if I was running that city I'd face Dany on the field ASAP. Just talking tactics, ta know. :D

    8,000 well trained men are enough.

    It all depends on the cities standing army. If they depend on slaves, or conscripts, then they'd lose on the open field.

    Staying behind the walls would be their safer bet. If they have the supplies to wait out a seige. A half trained army can defeat huge numbers with the right protection.

    But I'm sure they are aware of who she is. A few seige machines and 3 dragons might be enough to even things out.

    Rebeling slaves, while there are 8,000 trained men, seige engines and dragons outside. Now that is enough to cripple the city.


  • #203
    Mickeroo
    Administrators, Computer Games Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 32,773 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Mickeroo


    Waving your dick around, hurling insults and mocking your opponent isn't a good way to begin if you want an honourable duel.


  • #204
    superglue
    Closed Accounts Posts: 163 ✭✭superglue


    The taunt of the city's champion was that the men of Dany's army were lacking certain equipment, so I'd imagine that Dario taking out his lad and pissing all over the place after his victory would have had just as much of an effect as the winning of the duel itself.


  • #205
    thefa
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,181 ✭✭✭thefa


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    Not really if they see can he clearly wasn't defeated in the normal course of a single combat duel. All this says to me is "we can't fight ye in single combat, we need to cheat to have any chance."

    Your argument is based on there being rules set out or assumed but there appears to be none beyond the locals sending out a champion and expecting a challenger.

    Your argument seems invalid also given that there appears to be no issues of cheating with their man attacking an unmounted man with a sword with far less of a range than their champion's lance. Where's the sense of fairness there? It would be double standards to begin complaining when the horse is cut down and removed from the equation. The option was there for the local to dismount if he had chose to. He had no problem dismounting to ridicule the unsullied.


  • #206
    K_user
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,041 ✭✭✭K_user


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    I'd bet money it doesn't happen like that not n the books. It's like Indy shooting the swordsman, pure Hollywood cool factor the overriding objective. Dany knew the rules, in fact everyone knew the rules or they would have just killed him and not had the duel at all.

    What rules?

    This wasn't a summer fare. Thats an army sitting outside the city. Its war.

    Remember Cersei explaining to Sansa what happens to the women once the walls are breached? Thats the thinking of the time.

    If Dany fails all that is left of her army, and followers, will be enslaved.

    Two champions met on the open field. One was going to die for the honour of his side. One had a horse, one did not. The guy on the horse could have dismounted. He didn't. He pressed his advantage and charged at a standing target.

    If he was that worried about chivalry, that would never have happened.

    You don't charge at a man, at high speed, with a lance, after insulting his Queen, and expect a list of tournament rules to be followed.


  • #207
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Not really. If everyone and his mother is expecting a fairly standard duel by melee weapon, he historical/fantasy bog standard type, and what they get is a melee weapon thrown at a horse, nobody's going to say he beat our champion fairly.
    So you're all with me then that every duel should therefore be won by a guy with a crossbow?


  • #208
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    K_user wrote: »
    What rules?

    This wasn't a summer fare. Thats an army sitting outside the city. Its war.

    Remember Cersei explaining to Sansa what happens to the women once the walls are breached? Thats the thinking of the time.

    If Dany fails all that is left of her army, and followers, will be enslaved.

    Two champions met on the open field. One was going to die for the honour of his side. One had a horse, one did not. The guy on the horse could have dismounted. He didn't. He pressed his advantage and charged at a standing target.

    If he was that worried about chivalry, that would never have happened.

    You don't charge at a man, at high speed, with a lance, after insulting his Queen, and expect a list of tournament rules to be followed.
    But Dany been told him to get a horse! She knew the way these things were supposed to be done. The other guy even waited for him to do so.


  • #209
    superglue
    Closed Accounts Posts: 163 ✭✭superglue


    Does it not bother anyone that neither of our brave warriors cared to wash their hands after pissing?


  • #210
    thefa
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,181 ✭✭✭thefa


    I'd associate the use of horses with jousts as opposed to bog standard duels.

    Dany questioning Daario not wanting a horse highlights how it is seen to put him at a disadvantage in my opinion.


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  • #211
    K_user
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,041 ✭✭✭K_user


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    Not really. If everyone and his mother is expecting a fairly standard duel by melee weapon, he historical/fantasy bog standard type, and what they get is a melee weapon thrown at a horse, nobody's going to say he beat our champion fairly.
    So you're all with me then that every duel should therefore be won by a guy with a crossbow?

    Who's everyone?

    The wealthy slave owners? The enslaved?

    Also the notion of duel by champion did come to an end because of the longbow and pikes being used against mounted knights.

    And yes dueling did continue after, not necessarily with crossbows, but with guns, at 10 paces.


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