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Season 4; Episode 2: 'The Lion and the Rose'; *Have NOT* Read the Books

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Comments

  • #332
    Dubh Geannain
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,850 ✭✭✭Dubh Geannain


    SherlockWatson wrote: »
    But surely they'd plan it for after the marriage is consummated no?

    I suspect Cersei


    +1

    She was losing her grasp on power, which she obviously places as a priority above family.

    She gets her power back and gets to shaft Tyrion and Margery as an added bonus.

    @Bacchus: I hadn't considered some of the things you mentioned. Your post just reinforces my assumption. I had been trying to figure out the sending of the Old Geser to the kitchen of all people. She could have sent anyone.


  • #333
    Bacchus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,069 ✭✭✭Bacchus


    Didn't think of that yeah, she gets the added bonus of implicating Tyrion in the murder too! Win win win for her really.


  • #334
    Saganist
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,335 ✭✭✭Saganist


    The Big question on Cersei though is when did she have an opportunity to get the poison into King Jeofferys goblet ?

    I'm loving this thread btw.. :)


  • #335
    Bacchus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,069 ✭✭✭Bacchus


    Saganist wrote: »
    The Big question on Cersei though is when did she have an opportunity to get the poison into King Jeofferys goblet ?

    I'm loving this thread btw.. :)

    I'd have to watch it again, watching her in particular to see if there's any moment where she could have. However, we're all assuming it was the wine or the pie. Could have been something else. Or maybe someone else is in on it with her.... not many candidates at that table though... if any. Could Sansa have been in on it too?

    How about this...

    Ser Dontos is instructed (by Cersei) to approach Sansa and gains her trust with gift of the necklace. Sansa strikes a with Cersei (via Ser Dontos, who also hates Joffrey) to slip poison to Joffrey in return for her freedom. So we have a conspiracy involving Sansa, Ser Dontos and Cersei (possibly Jamie). Cersei's actions fit in the episode. As do Sansa's. Ser Dontos is then ready to go at that moments notice as soon as Joffrey starts choking.


  • #336
    Dubh Geannain
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,850 ✭✭✭Dubh Geannain


    Had a quick watch again of the closing sequence.

    Continuity Error spotted: Grand Maester is sitting back in the crowd after he was supposedly sent to the kitchen. He's seen applauding the dwarf mock fight.

    The wine bottle that Tyrion uses to fill the goblet is positioned right in front of Cersie and the camera even pans to show her looking at him as he picks it up from in front of her.


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  • #337
    Bacchus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,069 ✭✭✭Bacchus


    Dubh Geannain wrote: »
    Had a quick watch again of the closing sequence.

    Continuity Error spotted: Grand Maester is sitting back in the crowd after he was supposedly sent to the kitchen. He's seen applauding the dwarf mock fight.

    The wine bottle that Tyrion uses to fill the goblet is positioned right in front of Cersie and the camera even pans to show her looking at him as he picks it up from in front of her.

    Hmmm, could this mean that, from a filming perspective, they shot all those "dwarf" scenes and then realised that they could have a scene with Cersei getting rid of the Grand Maester. Only reason they'd do this would be to strengthen the "Cersei did it" case. Just a thought... probably over thinking it at this point :o


  • #338
    Artful_Badger
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,339 ✭✭✭Artful_Badger


    Could just mean it didnt take long for Pycelle to pass on Cersei's orders.


  • #339
    Dubh Geannain
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,850 ✭✭✭Dubh Geannain


    Artful_Badger wrote: »
    Could just mean it didnt take long for Pycelle to pass on Cersei's orders.

    Unless she was speaking in code, she did say she didn't want to see him again (or words to that effect). My money's on a continuity error. These things happen after all.


  • #340
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,069 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    What the hell is Tywen up to throughout all this? The wedding is obviously turning into a complete disaster even before Joff gets poisoned. Why is he standing idly by as all his allies see what an utter lunatic they've backed?
    Maybe both Tywen and Oleanna are in on it!


  • #341
    Artful_Badger
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,339 ✭✭✭Artful_Badger


    Dubh Geannain wrote: »
    Unless she was speaking in code, she did say she didn't want to see him again (or words to that effect). My money's on a continuity error. These things happen after all.

    She didnt say she didnt want to see him again. She said the fact he was in her presence annoyed her and she wanted him to leave her presence, go to the kitchens and tell them to give the food to the dogs. She also had been showing her distaste of him on other scenes so just seems to me like she was just being harsh with him and ordering him to inform the staff to give the food to the dogs rather than meaning that he was to leave and not come back.


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  • #342
    mayordenis
    Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 9,804 Mod ✭✭✭✭mayordenis


    From another perspective Cersei can almost be absolved, if as you would expect she was doing this whole thing with the food going to the dogs to basically **** with Joffrey and Margery, then she clearly wasn't expecting anything untoward to happen, she was playing the long game. Trying to show that she is still the boss etc.


  • #343
    Naydy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 189 ✭✭Naydy


    thefa wrote: »
    I think the necklace indicates she's being used as a pawn in others' plan and being set up to be framed. Why would a would be killer wear the poison in plain sight when she could have easily concealed one of the jewels somehwere on her dress? I thought it was clear from her encounter with Dontos that she was not part of any plan at that stage that made the necklace anything more than just a token of Dontos' appreciation.
    .

    I'm confused about this part, I watched the episode twice and didn't pick up any of this, can someone explain?


    The first time I watched it, I thought it was Tywin. But now my money is on Granny Tyrell. When I watched the episode a second time, there is a scene with her and Tywin where she not so subtly reminds him that the Lannisters will still need the Tyrells money after the wedding, which makes me think she could easily renegotiate more betrothals between her grandchildren and the Lannisters.

    I think she knows that Joffrey was liable to get killed by someone sooner or later, or somehow become a liability in other ways, and would rather tie her (only?) granddaughter with a more promising king (i'm assuming Joffrey's brother is heir, and he seems easier to manipulate, not to mention not a sadistic maniac). Plus she seemed completely disgusted by Joffrey and i'd say she was concerned about Maregery's welfare too.


  • #344
    Artful_Badger
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,339 ✭✭✭Artful_Badger


    Naydy wrote: »
    I'm confused about this part, I watched the episode twice and didn't pick up any of this, can someone explain?

    Dontos showed up in the previous episode and gave Sansa the necklace she was wearing at the wedding. He also showed up when Joffrey started to cough and splutter and said "If you want to live we have to go now". So there's a theory that the poison was in one of the jewels on the necklace. With Olenna Tyrell (Margaery's grandmother) behind it for the reasons you pointed out.

    Its a theory though that has as much problems as any other theory. Why have it on the necklace other than to set up Sansa, why set up Sansa ? It didnt seem like anyone other than Sansa herself had an opportunity to get anything into the cup and she didnt seem party to any plot. If she was party to it then there would be no reason for her to think she'd be able get near Joffrey to poison him or any need for the necklace to contain the poison.

    It'll probably turn out there was several different plots to kill him and all the poison mixed causing his head to start leaking which is why everyone was so shocked.


  • #345
    Naydy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 189 ✭✭Naydy


    Thank you for explaining :-)
    Artful_Badger wrote: »
    It'll probably turn out there was several different plots to kill him and all the poison mixed causing his head to start leaking which is why everyone was so shocked.

    I'd love if this was true. I've a friend who is convinced that Tywin laced the sword with poison knowing that Joffrey would use it to cut the pie :-D


  • #346
    jamo2oo9
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,780 ✭✭✭jamo2oo9


    There are two possible causes of Joffery's death, the pie and the cup. The pie was only eaten by Joffery but I believe that pie isn't only for the king but for everyone so it's highly unlikely the pie as it could kill many others like all of the Lannisters and Tyrells.

    The cup is the most likely to cause Joffery's death. I don't know if it's me or not, but wasn't it a different cup that Tyrion handed to Joffery after Sansa handed it to him. My guess is it that the fool dosed it with poison and when the cup rolled under the table, Sansa swapped the cups thus framing Tyrion for the murder of the king. Plus, the fool said to Sansa when Joffery was choking, "if you want to live, you must leave now".


    Sansa and the fool are the most likely cause of the king's death.




    Other than that, I am fúcking glad he's dead. He was such a prick to Sansa and that midget play in the wedding was obviously for Sansa. Thank god she did something finally!


  • #347
    mayordenis
    Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 9,804 Mod ✭✭✭✭mayordenis


    The midget play was for everyone, it had Renly riding around on Loras for **** sake basically having a go at Loras, his now wife Margery and the Tyrells in gerneral,
    having it be midgets was always going to be a dig at his uncle,
    of course as you say chopping off Robb's head was mostly an ode to Sansa but equally there are so many disgusted at the whole red wedding fiasco that he was basically goading everyone.


  • #348
    Naydy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 189 ✭✭Naydy


    jamo2oo9 wrote: »

    Sansa and the fool are the most likely cause of the king's death.

    Other than that, I am fúcking glad he's dead. He was such a prick to Sansa and that midget play in the wedding was obviously for Sansa. Thank god she did something finally!

    I think you're right about the fool knowing in advance, but Sansa poisoning Joffrey just goes against everything we know of her character up until this point for me. She arguably suffered most at his hands, but that also makes her a good scapegoat seeing how he has publicly humilated her again and again. Perhaps the fool was instructed to whisk her away just to make her look even more guilty.

    I'm glad he's dead too, was hoping he would get knocked down a peg or two before he died, but ah well :D


  • #349
    wp_rathead
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,089 ✭✭✭✭wp_rathead


    Imo the film writers are very clever, and have it done so that it seems to be The Fool and Sansa's plan.. Would not be surprised to have them do that as a curve ball or something - argh this show messes with your head ha

    Have a feeling Little Finger is involved somehow
    jamo2oo9 wrote: »
    There are two possible causes of Joffery's death, the pie and the cup.

    I re watched episode there, and when he started choking/poisoned he asked for more wine - that could indicate the pie was doing something to him..?

    I still think he could have just chocked on the dead dove that he killed cutting open the pie - I'll be in America this Sunday so I'll get to see GoT on HBO :pac:


  • #350
    thefa
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,349 ✭✭✭thefa


    Bacchus wrote: »
    Was chatting to the wife about this yesterday. We've settled on Cersei being behind it. She has the most to gain I think. It's been pretty clear for a long time that she is not happy about giving up her title as Queen Regent and would love nothing more than to knock Margery down a peg (she made idle threats to her didn't she at Tyrion's wedding). The fact that she was also being married off to the Tyrell fella infuriated her more. You can see how upset she was in episode 1 that Jamie took too long getting back.

    So, I believe she hatched the plan to kill Joffrey so she could keep her position of power. She's made no secret that she knows he's a little c*nt and I think when push comes to shove, she'll put herself first. Also, there's a little bit of history with her and poison already i.e. during the big battle she was going to poison her other son.

    The most telling thing is the conversation with the Grand Meister (sp?). She send him away quiet conveniently when he was possibly the only person who could have saved Joffrey. Also her comment "your QUEEN is telling you to feed the dogs" is an odd thing to say.

    Finally, I think Jamie is in on it too. His conversation with the Tyrell fella "You'll never marry her". I think that was a knowing comment.

    What Cersei has made clear is that she knew Joffrey had become a terror but loved him regardless. See videos.

    Yes, Margaery is a threat because she is a strong woman who Cersei can't control and was due to gain more power than Cersei. Given that she loves her kids, I don't see why the logic would be to kill her own son rather than have Magaery killed which could ruin the ties with the Tyrells and possibly lead to Joffrey forming a new marriage pact with somebody who she can control.

    Once the poison was in his system, Joffrey looked doomed given how fast it hit him and I doubt Pycelle was bringing him back from the brink unless he happened to be keeping the right antidote close at hand. That scene with Pycelle just looked like her showing her frustration as she was losing her grip on power and Margaery has influence over Joffrey which she hasn't had in a while. Joffrey had little time for the plebs until Margaery came along.

    The poison she almost gave Tommen isn't relevant given the circumstances at the time. She thought enemy troops were about to come through the door and was going to spare them being taken hostage or killed. Poison would be seen as a less cruel and hands on end from a mothers perspective than say a blade (for example) I would think.


    From1:40 on. Only three episodes ago.
    From


  • #351
    Da Shins Kelly
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,047 ✭✭✭Da Shins Kelly


    Yeah, I don't think Cersei was in on it. She has made it clear numerous times that she puts her children before anything. She knew Joffrey was a loose cannon, but she wouldn't have killed him, I don't think.


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  • #352
    Sulla Felix
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,442 ✭✭✭Sulla Felix


    coL wrote: »
    That is true but I was assuming that in light of the potential prize (her being "The Queen") the Tyrells would be prepared to endure a little hardship and risk Margery's wellbeing a little.

    It being a calculated risk as Joffrey would be unlikely to do anything too extreme to his new wife if only because of the novelty and him not being sick/bored of her yet. It would have made a lot more sense to consumate the marriage and for her to get knocked up as quickly as possible and then arrange for Joffrey to have an "unfortunate accident". Same end result but she is the mother of the future king.
    Was the incident with Roz and the other prostitute not meant to be his "first time"? So if he's doing that right off the bat...


  • #353
    kryogen
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,953 ✭✭✭✭kryogen


    seligehgit wrote: »
    Margaerys appeared to place the goblet on a table adjacent to that of Oleanna's,tricky for her to place the poison unnoticed?
    Does anybody think Sansa will eventually fall in love with Tyrion?

    I think Tyrion will either be dead or exiled following this! Hopefully exiled (that way he can come back) Cersei hates him, this is her chance to get rid of him once and for all surely?

    His father also hates him but I don't know if he hates him enough to have him killed or if he would see exile as the best way forward?

    From a purely tv pov I hope he gets exiled, I think it would make more sense if he is (wrongly) found guilty of the murder and killed though, gonna be interesting thats for sure!


    One thing that really bugs me is Tywin is so intelligent, so pragmatic and yet he has such a blind spot when it comes to his children, Jamie has no interest in ruling or politics, Cersei is clearly not up to the job, the one who is most like him, the one who would actually be able to carry on the Lannister legacy is hated by him (and the rest really) and rejected.

    If Tywin had invested his efforts in Tyrion and accepted him as his heir and the one who is most like him, most politically sound, most pragmatic etc I think that would have been of huge benefit to the family. It strikes me as odd that he has such a blind spot there, I understand the anger at how his wife died, but family, the name and his legacy seem too important to him to ignore the obvious like this. Not to mention his pragmatism!!


  • #354
    Artful_Badger
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,339 ✭✭✭Artful_Badger


    Tywin is no fool and cant see him standing for a Lannister being branded a traiter when the real culprit gets ahead eveneven if its tyrion who gets shafted.


  • #355
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,069 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Artful_Badger wrote: »
    Tywin is no fool and cant see him standing for a Lannister being branded a traiter when the real culprit gets ahead eveneven if its tyrion who gets shafted.
    I'd have to ask again why he was so bloody useless at the wedding then? Last season we saw him smacking down Joffrey whenever he was out of line.


  • #356
    Saganist
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,335 ✭✭✭Saganist


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    I'd have to ask again why he was so bloody useless at the wedding then? Last season we saw him smacking down Joffrey whenever he was out of line.

    His smack downs of Joffery in past episodes where in private family meetings, plus granted the low key Tyrion and Sansa wedding.

    This was the Kings wedding.

    Much bigger occasion with a lot more prying eyes.


  • #357
    Artful_Badger
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,339 ✭✭✭Artful_Badger


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    I'd have to ask again why he was so bloody useless at the wedding then? Last season we saw him smacking down Joffrey whenever he was out of line.

    I dont think there was much he could do even if he wanted to which he probably didnt. It was mostly just insulting to Sansa and Tyrion who Tywin had no time for anyway. Like Cersei he seemed bemused by Joffreys treatment of Tyrion. And given it was the kings wedding with everyone who's anyone there to question or attempt to chastise the king (particularly a nutbag like Joffrey) wouldn't have been a good idea.


  • #358
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,069 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Saganist wrote: »
    His smack downs of Joffery in past episodes where in private family meetings, plus granted the low key Tyrion and Sansa wedding.

    This was the Kings wedding.

    Much bigger occasion with a lot more prying eyes.
    More prying eyes, including the new in-laws, seeing Joffrey is a complete nut job is surely more damaging than them all seeing a level headed old hand is really in charge? It's not as if everyone didn't already know Tywin runs the show, and why would he want anyone to think differently?
    The Tywin we knew would've dreamed up some "emergency" to get Joffrey bundled off centre stage ASAP as the PR disaster was unfolding.


  • #359
    Bacchus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,069 ✭✭✭Bacchus


    Tywin is is the brains of the operation and as the brains of the operation he knows, do not put yourself in Joffrey's line of fire when his Kingsguard are in earshot. One word from Joffrey and it's beheading time for Tywin. He knows this. He picks his moments to influence Joffrey subtly without giving Joffrey reason to turn against him. Joffrey was clearly gunning for a bit of action during the wedding, Tywin was probably just holding his tongue... or maybe HE'S THE KILLER!! :p


  • #360
    Grimebox
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,997 ✭✭✭Grimebox


    I'd love if they massively deviated from how it happened in the books to **** with them snooty book readers :pac:


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  • #361
    snausages
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,225 ✭✭✭snausages


    This episode was less 'ding dong the witch is dead' and more 'holy ****ing **** that's pretty nasty, ****er bled out of his eyes and everything'. Maybe I'm just too soft.


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