Season 4; Episode 2: 'The Lion and the Rose'; Have NOT Read the Books

Artful_Badger · 16-04-2014 05:11PM

kryogen wrote: »

Nope, pretty sure he drank from it after that and was fine, it was only after the cup was left down unattended in from of the Oleanna that the trouble arrived

Dont think he did, he commanded Tyrion to kneel when he handed the cup. There was a bit of a stand off and then Margaery announced the pie was coming, took the goblet and laid it down on the end of the table where Olenna was. Far enough away from her from what I seen to make it hard to put something in it without being noticed considering everyone would be facing that direction as Joffrey cut the pie.

kryogen · 16-04-2014 05:17PM

Artful_Badger wrote: »

Dont think he did, he commanded Tyrion to kneel when he handed the cup. There was a bit of a stand off and then Margaery announced the pie was coming, took the goblet and laid it down on the end of the table where Olenna was. Far enough away from her from what I seen to make it hard to put something in it without being noticed considering everyone would be facing that direction as Joffrey cut the pie.

I must re watch it so, was sure he took another sip after getting it back when Sansa had it..........

It was during the cake cutting that I assume the poison was put in, which again led me to the old woman, while everyone was distracted, but I may have to take another look to be sure he did take a sip after Sansa touched it, didn't appear that she did anything other then pick it up and give it to Tyrion on first watch

Artful_Badger · 16-04-2014 05:21PM

kryogen wrote: »

I must re watch it so, was sure he took another sip after getting it back when Sansa had it..........

It was during the cake cutting that I assume the poison was put in, which again led me to the old woman, while everyone was distracted, but I may have to take another look to be sure he did take a sip after Sansa touched it, didn't appear that she did anything other then pick it up and give it to Tyrion on first watch

No you're right he did take a sip, I just re-watched it here. But Margaery also put it down on the corner of the kings table and not in front of Olenna as I first thought, it was only the camera angle that made it look like it was in front of Olenna I think. She stood when the pie came out but she'd have had to have moved to put something in it by the looks of it.

thefa · 16-04-2014 05:43PM

Artful_Badger wrote: »

No you're right he did take a sip, I just re-watched it here. But Margaery also put it down on the corner of the kings table and not in front of Olenna as I first thought, it was only the camera angle that made it look like it was in front of Olenna I think. She stood when the pie came out but she'd have had to have moved to put something in it by the looks of it.

Yes, and it would be just to the side of the crowds focus (Joffrey) and there's a Kingsguard standing guard right behind the King's table facing out who would see anyone attempting to go near the table.

Artful_Badger · 16-04-2014 05:49PM

thefa wrote: »

Yes, and it would be just to the side of the crowds focus (Joffrey) and there's a Kingsguard standing right behind the King's table facing out.

Yep, kingsguards at the back wall either side of the kings table. There's no way Olenna puts anything in that cup without being seen.

Which to me leaves three alternatives.

1. Margaery put it in the goblet when she took it from Joffrey as the pie came out.

2. Sansa dropped something into the goblet before handing it to Tyrion with Joffrey swallowing it when he drained the goblet.

3. The pie was poisoned as they knew Joffrey would be first to eat it.

Sulla Felix · 16-04-2014 05:59PM

rok wrote: »

Agreed, the purists/book fans may disagree but I'm sick to sh1t of the Bran Jojen and Meera storyline, makes for crap viewing.

I'm a reader and they make for crap reading too, I assure you.

Permabear · 16-04-2014 06:04PM

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thefa · 16-04-2014 06:17PM

Permabear wrote: »

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I think the necklace indicates she's being used as a pawn in others' plan and being set up to be framed. Why would a would be killer wear the poison in plain sight when she could have easily concealed one of the jewels somehwere on her dress? I thought it was clear from her encounter with Dontos that she was not part of any plan at that stage that made the necklace anything more than just a token of Dontos' appreciation.

Dontos telling her they have to leave now makes me feel like he was well aware of the plan given his timing. He may have been coerced into getting her to wear the necklace but is now trying to get her out of Kings Landing(as a genuine token of gratitude) as she looks guilty whether she stays or leaves if she is being framed.

Degag · 16-04-2014 06:21PM

Blay wrote: »

Jaime and Barristan were the only competent one's in Robert's kingsguard, now one is maimed and the other gone.

And The Hound ? Or was he just Joffreys bodyguard?

Mickeroo · 16-04-2014 06:23PM

Degag wrote: »

And The Hound ? Or was he just Joffreys bodyguard?

Yeah, he wasn't kingsguard.

Witcher · 16-04-2014 06:30PM

Degag wrote: »

And The Hound ? Or was he just Joffreys bodyguard?

Yeah, he was KG under Joffrey for a while.

Actually forgot all about him, he was definitely the deadliest of Joffrey's KG. Jaime was better than him but he was a bit tied up while the Hound was in it so he was the best of those actually with the king.

Very, very dangerous man the Hound.

ShoulderChip · 16-04-2014 06:37PM

Loras left in a huff because of the play and the portrayal of Renly,
OR
He left to get out of there before Joff took the poison???

Mickeroo · 16-04-2014 06:50PM

Blay wrote: »

Yeah, he was KG under Joffrey for a while.

Actually forgot all about him, he was definitely the deadliest of Joffrey's KG. Jaime was better than him but he was a bit tied up while the Hound was in it so he was the best of those actually with the king.

Very, very dangerous man the Hound.

Oh yeah you're right, completely forgot because he refused to wear the armour.

Dan_Solo · 16-04-2014 06:51PM

Permabear wrote: »

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Great theory! Though I think Margery would've made sure to take at least a few bites to be 100% free of suspicion then?

Permabear · 16-04-2014 06:55PM

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Grimebox · 16-04-2014 06:57PM

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Great theory! Though I think Margery would've made sure to take at least a few bites to be 100% free of suspicion then?

Given how heavy handed and abrupt the justice is in their world, I don't think Margery would need to do such a thing. They already have all the evidence they need by Tyrion and Sansa handling the goblet. I think Cersai has already screwed over her own family by accusing Tyrion.

storker · 16-04-2014 08:15PM

SherlockWatson wrote: »

But surely they'd plan it for after the marriage is consummated no?

I suspect Cersei, just to stop her wedding going ahead, and to become queen regent.

Interesting theory. She had already found out that she couldn't control Joffrey. She might see Tommen as being more malleable. With the possibility of framing Tyrion and denying the throne to Margery, bumping off Joff ticks all sorts of boxes for her.

That business with the leftovers for the poor was good. Cersei isn't just content to be a bitch; she works at it.

storker · 16-04-2014 08:18PM

nibtrix wrote: »

In the last episode the Red Woman said he still has a part to play, so Stannis cancelled his execution

Maybe he'll be sent on a quest to find Stannis a personality...

storker · 16-04-2014 08:26PM

tallpaul wrote: »

So another wedding in GOT and we have another dramatic death!!

Still a dull wedding by Dothraki standards, though...

Dan_Solo · 16-04-2014 10:06PM

storker wrote: »

Interesting theory. She had already found out that she couldn't control Joffrey. She might see Tommen as being more malleable. With the possibility of framing Tyrion

This could only have been a happy coincidence, as nobody could've planned Tyrion would be near Joff's cup. I reckon Tyrion will be exonerated when he points out to Tywen that he actually tried to leave long before the poisoning.
(Tywen will decide who's guilty or not I'm assuming)

Degag · 16-04-2014 10:06PM

Blay wrote: »

Yeah, he was KG under Joffrey for a while.

Actually forgot all about him, he was definitely the deadliest of Joffrey's KG. Jaime was better than him but he was a bit tied up while the Hound was in it so he was the best of those actually with the king.

Very, very dangerous man the Hound.

Maybe I'm biased (and I'm a fan of both characters but The Hound is my favourite) but I think The Hound would take him.

Mickeroo wrote: »

Oh yeah you're right, completely forgot because he refused to wear the armour.

Why was that - can't remember the scene?

witnessmenow · 17-04-2014 02:01AM

80s Child wrote: »

It's my opinion dude, you don't need to agree with it..

fair enough, but it sure is a crazy one :pac:

coL · 17-04-2014 07:24AM

Looking at the clip above and following who comes into contact with the cup closely, is it only me or does it look like Margery slips something into the cup as she takes it from Joffrey at the 3.28/3.29 mark?

Its hard to tell as the guys carrying the pie cross the shot (on purpose?) just at that moment. Also I am not sure why she would do it at the wedding as she would have full access and loads of opportunities to do it once they were married.

Like I say it doesnt make much sense for her to do it or to do it at the wedding but she does seem to be one of the few that had the opportunity to put something into the wine (if it was the wine). Plus in the lead up to it (from the 3 minute mark and in particular at 3.13) while he is being Joffrey (a p@?!k) she looks like she is struggling with some kind of internal decision/conflict.

Lady Olenna seems to be too far away from it and Sansa is too timid/clueless to do it without being noticed. I don't think Tyrion has it in him much and all as he hates Joffrey plus why would he put himself in such a position as a suspect.

The above assumes of course that the pie wasnt poisoned but I consider that unlikely as there might be too much collateral damage although like another poster said it might be two poisons working in combination (pie and wine).

Mr. CooL ICE · 17-04-2014 09:33AM

Also, Margaery handles the pie slice and feeds Joffrey the first bite. Would be easier to slip something onto the pie there than into the cup IMO.

Aaagh, so many variables, so many theories.

seligehgit · 17-04-2014 09:58AM

Margaerys appeared to place the goblet on a table adjacent to that of Oleanna's,tricky for her to place the poison unnoticed?
Does anybody think Sansa will eventually fall in love with Tyrion?

Permabear · 17-04-2014 10:10AM

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coL · 17-04-2014 10:25AM

Permabear wrote: »

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That is true but I was assuming that in light of the potential prize (her being "The Queen") the Tyrells would be prepared to endure a little hardship and risk Margery's wellbeing a little.

It being a calculated risk as Joffrey would be unlikely to do anything too extreme to his new wife if only because of the novelty and him not being sick/bored of her yet. It would have made a lot more sense to consumate the marriage and for her to get knocked up as quickly as possible and then arrange for Joffrey to have an "unfortunate accident". Same end result but she is the mother of the future king.

rok · 17-04-2014 10:26AM

Just wondering about Margaery and Oleanna's potential motives - does this not move Margaery down the pecking order as Cersei is Quenn regent?

coL · 17-04-2014 10:27AM

Permabear wrote: »

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That is true but I was assuming that in light of the potential prize (her being "The Queen") the Tyrells would be prepared to endure a little hardship and risk Margery's wellbeing a little.

It being a calculated risk as Joffrey would be unlikely to do anything too extreme to his new wife if only because of the novelty and him not being sick/bored of her yet. It would have made a lot more sense to consummate the marriage and for her to get knocked up as quickly as possible and then arrange for Joffrey to have an "unfortunate accident". Same end result but she is the mother of the future king.

Bacchus · 17-04-2014 11:15AM

Was chatting to the wife about this yesterday. We've settled on Cersei being behind it. She has the most to gain I think. It's been pretty clear for a long time that she is not happy about giving up her title as Queen Regent and would love nothing more than to knock Margery down a peg (she made idle threats to her didn't she at Tyrion's wedding). The fact that she was also being married off to the Tyrell fella infuriated her more. You can see how upset she was in episode 1 that Jamie took too long getting back.

So, I believe she hatched the plan to kill Joffrey so she could keep her position of power. She's made no secret that she knows he's a little c*nt and I think when push comes to shove, she'll put herself first. Also, there's a little bit of history with her and poison already i.e. during the big battle she was going to poison her other son.

The most telling thing is the conversation with the Grand Meister (sp?). She send him away quiet conveniently when he was possibly the only person who could have saved Joffrey. Also her comment "your QUEEN is telling you to feed the dogs" is an odd thing to say.

Finally, I think Jamie is in on it too. His conversation with the Tyrell fella "You'll never marry her". I think that was a knowing comment.

Season 4; Episode 2: 'The Lion and the Rose'; *Have NOT* Read the Books

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Season 4; Episode 2: 'The Lion and the Rose'; Have NOT Read the Books