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Waterford GAA Discussion Thread 2013- Mod Warning Post #1

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    #4352
    Mountainlad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,851 ✭✭✭Mountainlad


    bruschi wrote: »
    to give an oustsiders view, from someone who would see a bit of Waterford hurling,

    I'm not sure why all the anger? Firstly, you were favorites to be relegated, and all the pundits and media commentators picked Waterford to go down. This in itself caused a lot of indignation on here and people getting upset over it. But it was a call based on reality, and one that was shown to be the case. Of the teams in Div 1, I would pick Waterford and Dublin to be at the bottom end of them. So to me, its not a shock that you have been relegated. Especially considering the turnover in players and management in off season.

    Division 2 wont set you back. It wont do you any favours either, but taken the right way, it could prove beneficial for blooding younger players next season where the fear of relegation wont be an issue. Its far from ideal, but it shouldnt be a long term thing. there would be 2 good games with Limerick and Wexford, and even Antrim and Laois would prove a good test for a young side.

    I think there may be a false sense of reality as to where Waterford currently stand in the pecking order. I have seen it for years in Wexford. Always 'ah sure on our day, championship brings the best out of them, we'll come right yet', and here we are years down the line barely getting a grasp on things now again. Its very easy to sit back and think things will be rosy, and to try mask over where you really are. You are certainly not back where Wexford are right now, but without the proper structures and a sense of reality that things have to change, then we'll soon be passing you out. There is a good minor crop there, between the succesful school and county teams, and they need to be harnessed in the right way. You only have to look at a 3 in a row U21 winning Limerick team to realise that underage titles mean nothing unless they are brought through to senior in the right way.

    Waterford will be back, but it wont happen overnight. McGrath may or may not be the right man, but if he has a 3 year plan, then he should be let work on it through this championship and into Div2 of the legue next year.

    I'd have to disagree on a few things Bruschi. Firstly, Waterford are annualy favourites to struggle. The only reason people would say we play well as underdogs is because we constantly are. Even going back to the team we had in the early 00's and beyond, we were underdogs v Cork and Tipp in 2002, v Cork in 2004, v Tipp in 2006, v Cork the second day in 2007, v Tipp in 2008, v Galway in 2009, v Cork in 2010, v Galway in 2011, massively v Kilkenny last year (though I know we didn't win), favourites for relegation the last few years (had we beaten Galway in the last game last year we would have topped 1A).

    How many times to the media commentators and bookmakers have to be wrong before they you can say they're vindicated and we're all just unrealistic about where Waterford are?

    I have a lot of time for Wexford, my mother being from there, and I hope they do come strong again but to be honest there's little or no comparison between the two. While Waterford may only have one all-ireland at underage since 1992, there has been plenty of triumphs on the field since 2009. A direct comparison with Clare, at Minor level Waterford are 4-3 in matches v Clare since 2009. They are the only County in Munster to make a semi final in those 5 consecutive years.

    At u21 level we haven't had much success, not having won a match since 2009. But at the same time, we ran Clare close in 2009. We were hammered in 2012, but were the only side to give them a game last year and might even have won it barring the sending off.

    It's posts like this that make me hopeful about the present situation.

    Kilkenny (or I guess all their adoring fans in the media and beyond at least) always talk about how important training is, the competitiveness that players are pushed to the pin of their collars by the panel members and how that translates onto the pitch. Now when you consider the list of absentees we've had, while they might not all neccesarily see that much game time, if they were training at least you can sure the standard would increase enormously on what it has to be like at the moment. Whatever about the starting 15, we've a pretty strong panel by comparison. And it's very easy to discount now, but we beat Galway and Dublin this year and should have beaten Tipp (could be seen as a failing that we didn't win a game we dominated but then its a long time since Waterford won in the league in Thurles).

    I don't see who these players are that have left the panel. As for management, well the basis for them being removed was in theory to bring in a stronger setup. So with that in mind, though we mightn't all agree, in theory there should be increased expectations, no? There certainly hasn't been incresed performance levels.

    But when considering all things, I wouldn't be throwing the toys out of the pram yet myself. I am very disappointed about being relegated though, as I think we're better than that.


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    #4353
    Straight Talker
    Registered Users Posts: 1,917 ✭✭✭Straight Talker


    robopaddy wrote: »
    To be fair lad I think yere a couple years down the line from where we are. I thought ye were in no mans land after getting relegated but was really impressed with ye as the championship progressed. The skill level and stickwork particularly of yere forwards was a joy to behold. Theres a perception among some folk here that ye shouldnt be any better than us. We could and probably should have beat ye 2 years ago in an AI quarter in thurles but since then ye have kicked on no end under JBM while we have regressed alarmingly....

    Well Hoggie Lehane and Seamie Harnedy would be our three most reliable forwards.Seamie wouldn't be as naturally gifted as the other two but he is a very wholehearted player.It's amazing to see a man from an unknown junior club near Youghal step up to the plate for Cork in the manner that he has.The man just empties the tank everytime he goes out to battle.His dad played intercounty hurling for Waterford before.Jamie Coughlan is another forward who has a lot of potential.Stephen Moylan seems to make a better impact when he comes on as a sub.I actually think were okay for forwards but we need to find a partner to slot in beside Daniel Kearney because Lorchan McLoughlin is better used at the back.I think we have the forwards to win matches but that's negated by the fact that teams find it so easy to score against us.Our half back line last year was the poorest out of all the main counties.We also don't have a natural full back.

    I also think that JBM is not the greatest manager tactically but he is able to get his players to run through walls for him.This Cork team love a free flowing 15 on 15 contest but when you block them up they struggle and start ballooning desperate hail mary pot shots into the forwards.

    Cork 1990 All Ireland Senior Hurling and Football Champions



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    #4354
    Slobbery
    Closed Accounts Posts: 340 ✭✭Slobbery


    Straight Talker wrote: »
    Well Hoggie Lehane and Seamie Harnedy would be our three most reliable forwards.Seamie wouldn't be as naturally gifted as the other two but he is a very wholehearted player.It's amazing to see a man from an unknown junior club near Youghal step up to the plate for Cork in the manner that he has.The man just empties the tank everytime he goes out to battle.His dad played intercounty hurling for Waterford before.Jamie Coughlan is another forward who has a lot of potential.Stephen Moylan seems to make a better impact when he comes on as a sub.I actually think were okay for forwards but we need to find a partner to slot in beside Daniel Kearney because Lorchan McLoughlin is better used at the back.I think we have the forwards to win matches but that's negated by the fact that teams find it so easy to score against us.Our half back line last year was the poorest out of all the main counties.We also don't have a natural full back.

    I also think that JBM is not the greatest manager tactically but he is able to get his players to run through walls for him.This Cork team love a free flowing 15 on 15 contest but when you block them up they struggle and start ballooning desperate hail mary pot shots into the forwards.

    I think Harnedy, Luke O Farrell and Aidan Walsh all have a parent from Waterford?
    We should be doing all we can to get these lads into a Waterford Jersey before they cross over to the dark side!!!! :)


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    #4355
    robopaddy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 990 ✭✭✭robopaddy


    Jake dillon is out of the cork game


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    #4356
    glick6
    Registered Users Posts: 117 ✭✭glick6


    robopaddy wrote: »
    Jake dillon is out of the cork game

    What's the injury? If they can say for sure he's out of that game this far in advance It may put the whole summer in doubt. Feel awful for the guy. Lovely lad. Savage player and one we really need up top for his workrate and ability to take scores.


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    #4357
    TheBomber14
    Registered Users Posts: 69 ✭✭TheBomber14


    he had an operation on his knee cartilidge, 6-8 weeks out of action, could of been worse by all accounts. badly need his presence in the forward line and his instinct for goal, duno why mcgrath was playin him midfield, edge of the square is his best position.


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    #4358
    cul beag
    Registered Users Posts: 969 ✭✭✭cul beag


    glick6 wrote: »
    What's the injury? If they can say for sure he's out of that game this far in advance It may put the whole summer in doubt. Feel awful for the guy. Lovely lad. Savage player and one we really need up top for his workrate and ability to take scores.
    Hugh loss if he's out. Big ask to have him back in time for the Cork game if that's prognosis. One of the nicest fellas you could meet but hopefully if he's not fit in time for the Cork game he'll be back for the Munster semi final;)


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    #4359
    Giveitfong
    Registered Users Posts: 602 ✭✭✭Giveitfong


    Having abandoned the defensive formation used against Clare and Kilkenny, Waterford started very well against Dublin last Sunday. However, as the game progressed the problems we had in winning primary possession from our own puckouts became increasingly apparent. Iggy O’Regan’s predictable high-trajectory puckouts did not help here. This continued throughout the second half with no Plan B in evidence.


    Then triple disaster befell Waterford – first the injury to Stephen Molumphy who was playing very well in his best position at midfield, then the harsh sending off of Shane O’Sullivan (who was also doing well), then the injury to Darragh Fives (who looked stronger than I have every seen him when he came on to replace Molumphy).


    Nevertheless, the Waterford position was by no means hopeless at half time, just one point down with wind assistance to come in the second half. However, it is also worth noting that Dublin hit eight wides in the first half to just one for Waterford. A difference in attitude was also apparent in the way Brian O’Sullivan opted for a tap-over point when a goal chance was on in the first minute, whereas Dublin’s Colm Cronin went for goal when a similar chance appeared in the 31st minute. Iggy O’Regan made a poor effort at saving this shot.


    Waterford, however, were taken to the cleaners tactically in the second half – further signs of Derek McGrath’s major weaknesses in this vital area. The Waterford defenders appeared to have a policy of following their men and ended up being pulled all over the place. Dublin worked the ball out from their own goal to spare men in the midfield area who picked their spot as gaping holes appeared in the Waterford rearguard.


    Shane Fives, who was outstanding at full back in the first half, spent most of the second half out around the middle of the field. There was no cover when Danny Sutcliffe ran through for his first goal in the 42nd minute (although again O’Regan made a poor effort to stop what was a shot from a narrow angle). Two minutes later Sutcliffe struck again when Kevin Moran (playing in the full back position) and Tadhg Bourke got caught up in each other going for the same long ball in. If Fives had been at full back chances are that neither of these goals would have been conceded.


    It seems that Derek McGrath had no ambition to win this game. Why did he not tell Pauric Mahony to go for a goal from the close-in free with a few minutes left? In fact, Jamie Nagle, the best ball striker in the team, should have been brought up to take this free. Even worse, in the closing ten minutes, with Waterford desperately needing a goal, they got three frees from inside their own half of the field. In all three cases Pauric Mahony came out to take them, going through his time-consuming routine before hitting two of the frees into the goalie’s hand and the third wide. In all three cases the free should have been taken quickly by Jamie Nagle (thereby not allowing the Dublin defence to get organised) and Pauric Mahony should have been in the Dublin goalmouth, not 80 metres away from it.


    For the championship, Waterford’s most urgent need is for a couple of ball winners in the half forward line. Gavin O’Brien, Austin Gleeson, Jamie Barron and Ray Barry are all too small or light to perform this function. In his autobiography, Ger Loughnane wrote of how important it was to have big, strong, men to contest in this area. Accordingly, although there were more skillful players available, he opted for Fergus Tuohy and Fergal Hegary on the wings with the express purpose of preventing the opposition from getting possession and using the half back line as a springboard. This is why I think young players like DJ Foran and Cormac Heffernan should be groomed now for these positions.


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    #4360
    robopaddy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 990 ✭✭✭robopaddy


    If I got a fiver for evertime dj forans name was mentioned on this page id be a rich man. People expect last years minors to come through and start performing miracles. It dosent work like that. Let them cone through the system naturally. If their good enough theyll make it but as weve seen in the past theres no guarantees with minors


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    #4361
    O Riain
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,107 ✭✭✭O Riain


    robopaddy wrote: »
    If I got a fiver for evertime dj forans name was mentioned on this page id be a rich man. People expect last years minors to come through and start performing miracles. It dosent work like that. Let them cone through the system naturally. If their good enough theyll make it but as weve seen in the past theres no guarantees with minors

    Don't think he meant he should be just thrown into the cork game and single handedly
    win the game for us, just that he should be prepared to fit into the half forward line sometime in the future. Which is fair enough.


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    #4362
    robopaddy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 990 ✭✭✭robopaddy


    O Riain wrote: »
    Don't think he meant he should be just thrown into the cork game and single handedly
    win the game for us, just that he should be prepared to fit into the half forward line sometime in the future. Which is fair enough.

    Didnt imply that nor I wasnt on about that post in particular. Just the general consensus. That lads name is mentioned here all the time. Same as young curran from the brickeys. Theres an assumption that these lads should be just parachuted into senior because they are big minors. It dosent work like that. Just yhink people should be a bit more realistic.


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    #4363
    babs123
    Registered Users Posts: 87 ✭✭babs123


    anybody hear how they are getting on in portugal


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    #4364
    premierstone
    Registered Users Posts: 7,706 ✭✭✭premierstone


    robopaddy wrote: »
    If I got a fiver for evertime dj forans name was mentioned on this page id be a rich man. People expect last years minors to come through and start performing miracles. It dosent work like that. Let them cone through the system naturally. If their good enough theyll make it but as weve seen in the past theres no guarantees with minors

    Couldn't agree more, the amount of serious talents I have seen ruined by being thrown into Senior hurling too young is frigtening, yes there are exceptions but they are few and far between, to have a player straight out of minor that is ready both physically and mentally is extremely unusual and to bring him into a team that is struggling would be even a bigger mistake.


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    #4365
    hurler on de ditch
    Registered Users Posts: 893 ✭✭✭hurler on de ditch


    babs123 wrote: »
    anybody hear how they are getting on in portugal
    they're gettin red


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    #4366
    seananigans
    Registered Users Posts: 1,172 ✭✭✭seananigans


    hurler on de ditch wrote: »
    they're gettin red
    By plane?


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    #4367
    Deise_2012
    Registered Users Posts: 1,293 ✭✭✭Deise_2012


    robopaddy wrote: »
    If I got a fiver for evertime dj forans name was mentioned on this page id be a rich man. People expect last years minors to come through and start performing miracles. It dosent work like that. Let them cone through the system naturally. If their good enough theyll make it but as weve seen in the past theres no guarantees with minors
    I am constantly raving about DJ Foran and Cormac Curran but I have always said from the start they need 2/3 years before being brought onto Senior


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    #4368
    seananigans
    Registered Users Posts: 1,172 ✭✭✭seananigans


    Deise_2012 wrote: »
    I am constantly raving about DJ Foran and Cormac Curran but I have always said from the start they need 2/3 years before being brought onto Senior

    I was asked in tipp a few woke ago where the next mullane is I said give it 2 y years till you see DJ in action . hope I'm right by all accounts


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    #4369
    Cornerstoner
    Registered Users Posts: 175 ✭✭Cornerstoner


    seananigans wrote: »
    I was asked in tipp a few woke ago where the next mullane is I said give it 2 y years till you see DJ in action . hope I'm right by all accounts

    Comments like that are what annoy me. Theres no comparison to be made between past greats and future players. The amount of young lads ruined in this county due to ridiculous amounts of pressure being put on them even before they have so much as trained with the senior team! These lads are prospects, nothing more.. Look at Kilkenny, you never hear anyone saying who the next Henry Shefflin is going to be etc In fact most of their young players are not anywhere near the panel until they are over 21. Rant over


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    #4370
    deisedoz
    Registered Users Posts: 35 ✭deisedoz


    We have three players over 6 feet (Paudie, Maurice and SOS) who could nominally play in the half forward line but struggle to contest the high ball. We also have Darragh Fives who could potentially play there. You would have to wonder why this is from a coaching point of view as it has persisted for 3-4 years now.

    Looking ahead to the summer I would like to see a team along this line running out in Thurles;

    SOK
    Bourke S.Fives Connors
    Moran Brick Nagle
    Molumphy Ph Mahony
    Pa Mahony SOS D.Fives
    Barron Shanahan Barry

    Can't see Steven Daniels playing any part as it stands but if fit would def have him in.


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    #4371
    tomwaterford
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,768 ✭✭✭✭tomwaterford


    deisedoz wrote: »
    We have three players over 6 feet (Paudie, Maurice and SOS) who could nominally play in the half forward line but struggle to contest the high ball. We also have Darragh Fives who could potentially play there. You would have to wonder why this is from a coaching point of view as it has persisted for 3-4 years now.

    Looking ahead to the summer I would like to see a team along this line running out in Thurles;

    SOK
    Bourke S.Fives Connors
    Moran Brick Nagle
    Molumphy Ph Mahony
    Pa Mahony SOS D.Fives
    Barron Shanahan Barry

    Can't see Steven Daniels playing any part as it stands but if fit would def have him in.

    possibly drop barron for shane walsh and leave Philip mahony wing back
    move shanahan corner forward

    realistically molumpy centre field with moran and SOS wing forward/thris midfielder


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    #4372
    KevIRL
    Registered Users Posts: 39,508 ✭✭✭✭KevIRL


    deisedoz wrote: »
    We have three players over 6 feet (Paudie, Maurice and SOS) who could nominally play in the half forward line but struggle to contest the high ball. We also have Darragh Fives who could potentially play there. You would have to wonder why this is from a coaching point of view as it has persisted for 3-4 years now.

    Looking ahead to the summer I would like to see a team along this line running out in Thurles;

    SOK
    Bourke S.Fives Connors
    Moran Brick Nagle
    Molumphy Ph Mahony
    Pa Mahony SOS D.Fives
    Barron Shanahan Barry

    Can't see Steven Daniels playing any part as it stands but if fit would def have him in.


    What about Lawlor? Is he likely to be fit? Thats essentially the back unit thats leaked 13 goals in 3 games (granted Iggy in goal for the last of them)


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    #4373
    deisedoz
    Registered Users Posts: 35 ✭deisedoz


    KevIRL wrote: »
    What about Lawlor? Is he likely to be fit? Thats essentially the back unit thats leaked 13 goals in 3 games (granted Iggy in goal for the last of them)

    Am a big fan of Liam and he's never let us down. However with him not being in the league reckoning I do question whether Derek will parachute him in.


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    #4374
    deadybai
    Registered Users Posts: 1,464 ✭✭✭deadybai


    does anyone know where and when the footballers are playing this weekend?


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    #4375
    robopaddy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 990 ✭✭✭robopaddy


    deisedoz wrote: »
    We have three players over 6 feet (Paudie, Maurice and SOS) who could nominally play in the half forward line but struggle to contest the high ball. We also have Darragh Fives who could potentially play there. You would have to wonder why this is from a coaching point of view as it has persisted for 3-4 years now.

    Looking ahead to the summer I would like to see a team along this line running out in Thurles;

    SOK
    Bourke S.Fives Connors
    Moran Brick Nagle
    Molumphy Ph Mahony
    Pa Mahony SOS D.Fives
    Barron Shanahan Barry

    Can't see Steven Daniels playing any part as it stands but if fit would def have him in.

    To be honest I think brian o sullivan will definetly start.

    Like kev id be sceptical about the full back line aswell. I think also Nagle is a smashing hurler but the bottom line is he dosent defend and id think about putting someone a bit tighter in there like a richie foley, stephen daniels or darragh fives if fit. Give the full back line a bit more protection. The forwards im nit overly fussed to be honest I think weve a lot of forwards who are much of the same level. Its more a matter of who is going to have a good day and who is going to have an off day


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    #4376
    Tramore84
    Registered Users Posts: 134 ✭✭Tramore84


    KevIRL wrote: »
    What about Lawlor? Is he likely to be fit? Thats essentially the back unit thats leaked 13 goals in 3 games (granted Iggy in goal for the last of them)

    I would start prendergast in the half forward line and drop dareagh fives back to corner back - I don't think the full back line listed there is good enough. Ideally lawlor would come back in full back and Shane fives could be pushed up to the half back line - a half back line of Moran brick and Shane fives has a solid look about it. Maurice shanahan , Pendergast and pauric Mahoney, and then Shane Bennett, Shane Walsh and o halloran full forward line. Completely untried full forward line there but I don't think it is much of a risk to take a risk at this point.


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    #4377
    waterfordgirl
    Registered Users Posts: 297 ✭✭waterfordgirl


    deadybai wrote: »
    does anyone know where and when the footballers are playing this weekend?

    Think its fraher field against carlow on Sunday afternoon - open to correction though!


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    #4378
    cul beag
    Registered Users Posts: 969 ✭✭✭cul beag


    deisedoz wrote: »
    We have three players over 6 feet (Paudie, Maurice and SOS) who could nominally play in the half forward line but struggle to contest the high ball. We also have Darragh Fives who could potentially play there. You would have to wonder why this is from a coaching point of view as it has persisted for 3-4 years now.

    Looking ahead to the summer I would like to see a team along this line running out in Thurles;

    SOK
    Bourke S.Fives Connors
    Moran Brick Nagle
    Molumphy Ph Mahony
    Pa Mahony SOS D.Fives
    Barron Shanahan Barry



    Can't see Steven Daniels playing any part as it stands but if fit would def have him in.

    I'd say Brian Sull and Jake(if fit) will start before Barron and Barry but i think you could see Darragh Fives or Ritchie Foley moving to midfield and Phillip Mahony to wingback instead of Jamie Nagle. Will be interesting to see as the game gets nearer as i'm sure there will be surely 1 challenge game played after they come back from club commitments. Hopefully we won't pick up anymore injuries as we're thin on the ground as it is.


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    #4379
    hurler on de ditch
    Registered Users Posts: 893 ✭✭✭hurler on de ditch


    robopaddy wrote: »
    To be honest I think brian o sullivan will definetly start.

    Like kev id be sceptical about the full back line aswell. I think also Nagle is a smashing hurler but the bottom line is he dosent defend and id think about putting someone a bit tighter in there like a richie foley, stephen daniels or darragh fives if fit. Give the full back line a bit more protection. The forwards im nit overly fussed to be honest I think weve a lot of forwards who are much of the same level. Its more a matter of who is going to have a good day and who is going to have an off day
    great looks like your basically sticking to team that got relegated ,backs that were overrun and forwards that cant score ,,,,,,,,,,brilliant


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    #4380
    robopaddy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 990 ✭✭✭robopaddy


    Tramore84 wrote: »
    I would start prendergast in the half forward line and drop dareagh fives back to corner back - I don't think the full back line listed there is good enough. Ideally lawlor would come back in full back and Shane fives could be pushed up to the half back line - a half back line of Moran brick and Shane fives has a solid look about it. Maurice shanahan , Pendergast and pauric Mahoney, and then Shane Bennett, Shane Walsh and o halloran full forward line. Completely untried full forward line there but I don't think it is much of a risk to take a risk at this point.

    Stephen bennett who I assume you mean wont be starting. Might see him as an impact sub later in the championship.


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    #4381
    PTH2009
    Registered Users Posts: 37,939 ✭✭✭✭PTH2009


    robopaddy wrote: »
    Stephen bennett who I assume you mean wont be starting. Might see him as an impact sub later in the championship.

    if we lose to Cork we could only have one more match against Galway/Dublin/Kilkenny/Offaly or Wexford. So we could only play 2 games this year in the championship sad to think


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