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Leftovers [HBO] [** Spoilers **]

  • 17-09-2013 7:54pm
    #1
    IvaBigWun
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,368 ✭✭✭


    Im cautiously optimistic about this


    http://www.empireonline.com/news/story.asp?NID=38777
    Star Trek screenwriter and fanboy punching bag du jour (some jours, at any rate), Damon Lindelof is either one of Hollywood's most prolific and successful screenwriters or a man who refuses to rest on his lack of laurels, depending on what side of the enraged-blogger divide you sit. HBO is firmly in the former camp, commissioning his Peter Berg-directed pilot for The Leftovers into a ten-part miniseries.

    The Leftovers is Lindelof's first TV project since Lost, a co-creation with Election and Little Children writer Tom Perrotta adapted from his novel of the same name. It's set in a post-apocalyptic world, albeit ahttp://b-static.net/vbulletin/images/editor/separator.gif rather unusual one in which a Rapture, biblical or otherwise, has removed the 'wheat' and left the chaff behind to fend for themselves.

    The setting is the suburban community of Mapleton. There, a hundred townsfolk have suddenly disappeared after the mysterious happening. Among those left behind are a police chief (Justin Theroux), his wife (Amy Brenneman), a local cult leader (Ann Dowd), one of the women it's zeroing in on (Liv Tyler), and the town's tabloid editor (Christopher Eccleston).

    No word on airing date in the US as yet. We do know that Lindelof will be showrunning and exec-producing along with Perrotta, Berg, Sarah Aubrey, Ron Yerxa and Albert Berger.

    prometheus-dl2__span(1).jpg


«134567…15

Comments

  • #2
    JP Liz V1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 87,485 ✭✭✭✭JP Liz V1


    This is to air in the summer no exact date yet
    https://forumofgames.com/




  • #3
    Birneybau
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,357 ✭✭✭✭Birneybau


    Hack of the highest/lowest order.


  • #4
    conorhal
    Registered Users Posts: 7,004 ✭✭✭conorhal


    High concept = low expectations from me. The man can't do 'third act', in fact he's usually creatively spent by the end of the first act. I fully expect to find myself punching the TV after waiting seven years to find out that the entire show was Bobby Ewing's dream.


  • #5
    jenjenten
    Closed Accounts Posts: 944 ✭✭✭jenjenten


    He has said at the TCA that the "why" of why
    180 million people get swept off the Earth in a 'Rapture' type event
    wont be explained or explored....Lost and Flash Forward were mentioned to him.

    Its about what happens to the lives of those left behind, how they process it all etc.

    I doubt there will be any Sci-Fi in this, more theology and why we are here etc.

    Pass


  • #6
    jenjenten
    Closed Accounts Posts: 944 ✭✭✭jenjenten


    conorhal wrote: »
    High concept = low expectations from me. The man can't do 'third act', in fact he's usually creatively spent by the end of the first act. I fully expect to find myself punching the TV after waiting seven years to find out that the entire show was Bobby Ewing's dream.

    Or they were dead all along.......:rolleyes:


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  • #7
    jenjenten
    Closed Accounts Posts: 944 ✭✭✭jenjenten


    ^ so wait....they took all the intelligent, smart, skilled people.....and left behind the white trash and scumbags?


  • #8
    jimboblep
    Registered Users Posts: 546 ✭✭✭jimboblep


    just seen he has writing credits for Prometheus and world war z im definitely out


  • #9
    jenjenten
    Closed Accounts Posts: 944 ✭✭✭jenjenten


    IvaBigWun wrote: »
    It's set in a post-apocalyptic world, albeit rather unusual one in which a Rapture, biblical or otherwise, has removed the 'wheat' and left the chav behind to fend for themselves.

    FYP ;)


  • #10
    conorhal
    Registered Users Posts: 7,004 ✭✭✭conorhal


    jenjenten wrote: »
    ^ so wait....they took all the intelligent, smart, skilled people.....and left behind the white trash and scumbags?

    Sooooo... it's a US remake of Tallaghtfornia then? :P


  • #11
    jenjenten
    Closed Accounts Posts: 944 ✭✭✭jenjenten


    conorhal wrote: »
    Sooooo... it's a US remake of Tallaghtfornia then? :P

    Or Under The Dome......;)


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  • #12
    JP Liz V1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 87,485 ✭✭✭✭JP Liz V1


    Starts on Sunday June 15
    https://forumofgames.com/




  • #13
    Adamantium
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,563 ✭✭✭Adamantium


    I really hope this show's actual title is "Damon Lindelof's Leftovers".

    Is it about the satisfying answers that are always left out of his scripts. I imagine a 20 minute sitcom with backroom, writers room mishaps with hilaaaarious/sexy results.

    "Oh shucks Ridley, we built the sets off the first draft and not the final script"

    Scott :"DAMONNNN!!!"



    Abrams: "I don't Damon I can't help you out there, the thing is nobody really wants you here on Episode VII, especially not Kathleen Kennedy"

    "Oh c'mon JJ, its Kasdan isn't it, why don't you two just shack up already?? SLAMS PHONE DOWN"


    "Oh Damooooon. What, oh what will we do with you?"


  • #14
    opr
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,267 ✭✭✭opr


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tGjWr0K85S8


    Opr


  • #15
    JP Liz V1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 87,485 ✭✭✭✭JP Liz V1


    Thrill wrote: »
    The Leftovers teaser trailer (HBO)



    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tGjWr0K85S8


    :cool:
    https://forumofgames.com/




  • #16
    JP Liz V1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 87,485 ✭✭✭✭JP Liz V1


    It will now premiere on Sunday, June 29 instead of June 15 as originally announced
    https://forumofgames.com/




  • #17
    Mr E
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 55,533 ✭✭✭✭Mr E


    Full trailer

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Shn1mPejr_4


  • #18
    ktulu123
    Moderators, Computer Games Moderators Posts: 3,093 Mod ✭✭✭✭ktulu123


    I'll give it a go but it has the potential to be absolute bollocks


  • #19
    mafaa
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 789 ✭✭✭mafaa


    the-leftovers.jpg


  • #20
    mafaa
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 789 ✭✭✭mafaa


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=znkM3xyKCvw


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eEJmDwJULXY


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hl5XuQ81E8g


  • #21
    bnt
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,031 ✭✭✭✭bnt


    Found this because I was curious what Liv Tyler was up to these days. As well as Theroux, it also features Amy Brenneman (NYPD Blue, Judging Amy, Private Practice) and Christopher Eccleston (Shallow Grave, Doctor Who), and Scott Glenn and Janel Moloney pop up too. It premieres tomorrow, and there's at least one review so far - here:
    It remains to be seen whether HBO's new The Leftovers will be one of those Great Shows. Having only seen the premiere, I love most of it, and I'm looking forward to seeing more. What does immediately stand out is that it markedly defines itself against a lot of the other stuff out there. It's unrelentingly bleak, which is nothing new, but its specific brand of bleakness is really unrelenting at the same time as being more intimate and small-scale than, say, the humanity-is-the-real-source-of-all-evil brutality of Game of Thrones.
    They say that religion is a major theme this time, compared to others shows in which it might be there as part of the landscape:
    Some political figure is arguing with the representative of a scientific commission, which studied the matter and concluded with a resounding "I don't know." This politician is convinced it must be the work of God, to which the scientist replies, "I'm fairly certain, sir, that God sat this one out."

    The quote says a lot about the nature of The Leftovers so far. It has an inherently mystical and religiously derived catalyst, but the show itself never becomes supernatural. Religion is a major topic, with its cults and debates on scripture, but the show is not itself religious. At least for the time being, it seems that perennially apologetic showrunner Damon Lindelof wants to forget the fallout of Lost and go with a story that remains more grounded. Where other shows would explore what happened to those who disappeared—or might incorporate a host of otherworldly goings-on in the wake of an apocalyptic event—The Leftovers is instead committed to depicting the personal drama of normal people in the wake of the unexplainable.

    Death has this much to be said for it:
    You don’t have to get out of bed for it.
    Wherever you happen to be
    They bring it to you—free.

    — Kingsley Amis



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  • #22
    mafaa
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 789 ✭✭✭mafaa


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z5_O9h5lTrk


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WqDLlUsQtZA


  • #23
    JONJO THE MISER
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 12,333 ✭✭✭✭JONJO THE MISER


    Brand new HBO show starts tonight.

    The Leftovers takes place in the wake of a global "Rapture" and centers on the people who were not taken but were left behind in a suburban community.


  • #24
    Machismo Fan
    Registered Users Posts: 6,943 ✭✭✭Machismo Fan


    Early reviews say it's very good.


  • #25
    IvaBigWun
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,368 ✭✭✭IvaBigWun


    The 2-3 reviews I just glanced at look pretty good. Going to give this a whirl later


  • #26
    stevenmu
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 9,689 Mod ✭✭✭✭stevenmu


    Just finished with episode 1 there.

    Very very strong stuff. I was always critical of shows like The Event or Flash Forward because they felt like they were taking an interesting idea and then doing a completely half-assed job of making it. Well they are definitely whole-assing it for The Leftovers.

    The writing and acting are both quality, and the production values seem very high. It's not necessarily a budget thing, there aren't any hugely expensive looking set pieces, it just oozes quality from every angle though. I'm going to guess a lot of that is down to good directing.

    The world as it's portrayed feels very believable, especially for a "high concept" type show, and I was really drawn into it. And the plot and various mysterious seem genuinely mysterious and thought provoking.

    It may not be for everyone, it's very very bleak, and I'd expect many to not like it just for that alone. I'm assuming the first episode was particularly bleak to set the tone and it might lighten up a bit as it goes on, even a little dark humour would be a welcome addition.

    If it keeps the quality up though then HBO are on to another big winner.


  • #27
    Basq
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 44,028 ✭✭✭✭Basq


    I loved this.. as stevenmu said, it's definitely very bleak.. but it's completely and utterly enthralling TV!

    HBO are definitely onto another winner here IMO!


  • #28
    CastorTroy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,282 ✭✭✭✭CastorTroy


    Just finished the first episode and it was actually one where I really wanted to see where it was going.

    Think it was smart to do a 3 year jump instead of taking place immediately after the disappearance which would have been all panic and everything. This way it's pretty much past all that and dealing with fallout.

    When I initially heard about this I pictured a show like Revolution where society had collapsed after millions disappeared but seeing it and hearing only 2% of people disappeared, everything's continuing as normal. More or less. Different take.

    Wonder where the daughter was. With the Teen Wolf twins the whole night? And why would the deer be breaking into the sheriff's house?
    Really curious about this smoking cult. Like why did Liv Tyler decide to join them? And who's this Wayne guy?

    Directed by Peter Berg from Friday Night Lights. And was funny seeing Buddy Garrity in a different role. Though not that different.

    Overall, I thought it was a great pilot and I'll definitely keep watching.

    Anyone else think it didn't feel/look like a HBO show? Not that it's a bad thing but if not for a couple bits, it could be a NBC series.


  • #29
    nc6000
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,335 ✭✭✭nc6000


    Anyone know if this will be on Sky Atlantic anytime soon?

    EDIT : Just spotted that it will be on in the autumn sometime.


  • #30
    krustydoyle
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,941 ✭✭✭krustydoyle


    I really enjoyed the first episode, bleak is an understatement though and i can't wait to see where it goes.


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  • #31
    Burgo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,815 ✭✭✭Burgo


    ttaztQw.png

    goodnight sweet prince.


  • #32
    iguana
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,916 ✭✭✭✭iguana


    Burst into tears watching the opening scenes. Might have had something to do with being extremely overtired following 3 bad nights of sleep with my baby son, Sam. I couldn't handle character Sam's mother screaming for him at all. :(


  • #33
    TerrorFirmer
    Closed Accounts Posts: 29,930 ✭✭✭✭TerrorFirmer


    Just finished watching it there. Extremely good TV.


  • #34
    megapixel
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 687 ✭✭✭megapixel


    I watched the first episode and i'm looking forward to the next one


  • #35
    squonk
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,702 ✭✭✭squonk


    I thought it was So-So really. It's fairly watchable but nothing so far has really gripped me about it. It was a good and slightly disturbing opening with the disappearance but after that it just settles down into something that I don't know where it's really going.

    I'm wary of these kinds of shows because they generally end up being a complete waste of time by the time they finish. The white clad smoking sisterhood are currently ruining the show for me. I don't see the point and the two spas who followed your man's fiancé around were morons. Also, if they knew they were hated, why did they show up to the remembrance ceremony where they knew they would spark violence and get the crap kicked out of them. I certainly know that by the end of the show I wanted to do a drive by firebombing of their house. They add nothing to the show really.


  • #36
    Falthyron
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,835 ✭✭✭Falthyron


    squonk wrote: »
    I thought it was So-So really. It's fairly watchable but nothing so far has really gripped me about it. It was a good and slightly disturbing opening with the disappearance but after that it just settles down into something that I don't know where it's really going.

    I'm wary of these kinds of shows because they generally end up being a complete waste of time by the time they finish. The white clad smoking sisterhood are currently ruining the show for me. I don't see the point and the two spas who followed your man's fiancé around were morons. Also, if they knew they were hated, why did they show up to the remembrance ceremony where they knew they would spark violence and get the crap kicked out of them. I certainly know that by the end of the show I wanted to do a drive by firebombing of their house. They add nothing to the show really.

    You have concluded all that by one episode in a ten-part series? From what I have seen this group believes everyone is wasting their time with remembrance because of possibly two scenarios:

    A - They believe the ones that disappeared are considered 'bad' people and people should not be remembering them. 'It's a waste of your breath'.

    B - 'It's a waste of breath' because commemoration is pointless as the ones taken are now in 'Heaven' or a better place, and the people left behind are left to eek out some sort of reason for surviving.

    Either way, we don't know really anything about this group. Why not just wait and see what their goal actually is before casting them aside? As for them following people, they have chosen them for a reason and I am interested to see what that reason is. I will wait and see what their purpose actually is before I decide whether or not they have any relevance in the show.


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  • #37
    squonk
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,702 ✭✭✭squonk


    TBH if that sort of event happened in real life, I'd be going with Option 2 anyway. They're gone. They're somewhere else, probably better esp. as that baby and the Pope went which would seem to indicate that it was good people who left and are therefore somewhere good. So just get on with it. I'm more surprised that the ones left aren't going "Well, we're bad people apparently.... let's just act like it then..." cue chaos and mass lawlessness. The exposition of the white smokers should have been moved along a bit more. In fact, very little was actually told to us at all. I'm kind of wary about that. I'm still on the fence really.


  • #38
    Skerries
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,551 ✭✭✭✭Skerries


    284374f558f572ff33.jpg
    Untitled Image




  • #39
    IvaBigWun
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,368 ✭✭✭IvaBigWun


    Any chance we could have the big spoilers of the show spoilered on a weekly basis?

    I dont trust Lindelof anymore after Lost and Im going to wait and see how this one goes reviews wise and then bulk watch it at the end of the season if they have been favourable.

    Id still like to dip in and out of this thread however and see if its a strong show without reading things like "OMG I cant believe they shot Kevin in the face!" ;)


  • #40
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Only 40 mins in and feels way too much like Lost already. I hated Lost


  • #41
    CastorTroy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,282 ✭✭✭✭CastorTroy


    They shot Kevin in the face? Noooooooooooo!

    Who's Kevin? :)
    squonk wrote: »
    Also, if they knew they were hated, why did they show up to the remembrance ceremony where they knew they would spark violence and get the crap kicked out of them. I certainly know that by the end of the show I wanted to do a drive by firebombing of their house. They add nothing to the show really.

    How many religions/groups do things they want to do, knowing it annoys everyone to the point of violence? Not to start anything politics/religion related but just as a local example, you just have to look at ones like the Orange Order marching in Catholic areas in the North.
    So there is a basis for it.

    Do find that group strange though. But plenty of time to find out more about them, without reading the book. Like are there more branches outside the town?

    After the latest episode, I'm finding it interesting. Felt the whole thing with Wayne was a bit rushed though since they just showed the secrecy around his location last week.

    And glad they showed the sheriff(ah, that's Kevin) is not crazy as that could've just been annoying. Did feel sorry for Nora though.

    As for the theory about only good people being taken away, they've been giving examples of people who weren't so good yet were taken away.


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  • #42
    Skerries
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,551 ✭✭✭✭Skerries


    the Daleks took them and The Doctor is just waiting for them to reveal themselves before he drops the whole lunatic priest act
    Untitled Image




  • #43
    CastorTroy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,282 ✭✭✭✭CastorTroy


    Ah, so Nora is the new assistant? It all makes sense now.

    I wonder how far the "hugging" with Wayne has to go to give relief.


  • #44
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Not sure how I feel about this. Acting is superb, production is fantastic but the premise and plot is dodgy at best. The music is overbearing. I'm trying to shake the feeling it has of Lost but its lingering. There are already tons of bizarre unexplained events and Lost was fcuking awful for that. Some scenes cut just as a conversation would have began to explain something. They like to leave the audience in the dark. Its an irritating practice imo. I'll stick it out for a bit simply because its HBO but I really have no idea where they are going with this.


  • #45
    squonk
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,702 ✭✭✭squonk


    After episode 2 I'm starting to get a bit sketchy about this show. Stuff just happens and there isn't a reason for it most of the time. I still don't see an arc in place in any shape or form.

    My impression of last night's episode. Some law enforcement people at the start cracked down on Wayne who escaped with a girl who is somehow important and he later hands her over to some big guy. The Marlboro sisterhood have Arwenn knocking around for a few weeks. Then they ask her to cut down a tree. She gets pissed off and says she's not doing it. They say OK and then Cop Wife decides she must leave so grumpy smoking woman kicks her out. Arwenn then cuts down the tree laughing hysterically. Meanwhile some kids follow a woman doing some serious red tape type interviews with an old couple who lost their down syndrome son and that goes nowhere. The guy shooting the deer shows up at the cops house after bringing the kids home and asks the cop to go shoot deer with him. Apart from learning the Malboro sisterhood is some sort of 'thing' that's not a cult but there might be more of them in other towns/places, that's about all we learnt. I'm starting to believe that this show will end up as a load of crap like Lost did and could well be cancelled by HBO before long.


  • #46
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Nice to know someone agrees. A series of bizarre events can be gripping but I find it frustrating.


  • #47
    Falthyron
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,835 ✭✭✭Falthyron


    It would seem The Leftovers is going to divide a lot of people. Those who prefer to preserve mystery, be encapsulated by possibility and curiosity will probably enjoy it, but those who prefer their TV show to have a conclusion at the end of each episode and most of it spelled out for them will not enjoy it. Lindelof has already spoken about the fact that we will not be told the reason for the disappearance, which, to me, suggests the show is not to be told why it happened, but to engage with characters and the various mysteries associated with its aftermath. Personally, I am glad The Leftovers hasn't showed all its cards yet, or even some of them, as it is allowing us to come up with our own reasons and questions for the world the writers have created. I don't want to be led down a nice path of convenience and episodic stories of 'problem, trouble, solution' which is characteristic of shows like CSI, The Blacklist, the Mentalist, etc, etc.

    It has been two episodes, and I hope it continues exactly how it has begun. Let it breathe, let it grow, and stop expecting x, y, and z. The movie 'Inception' is a great point of reference for indicating how you enjoy your movies and TV shows. The Leftovers has 10 episodes to get us hooked into its world, the characters, and the mysteries. I intend to give it the full 10 before I decide on whether or not I will continue it.


  • #48
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    There is preserving the mystery then there is not telling the audience next to nothing. I just felt like I was being bombarded with far too many off the wall scenarios. I wish I was never told this was made by the same guy who made lost, I'm being far too judgmental already as a result.

    Could you elaborate on Inception as a point of reference?


  • #49
    squonk
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,702 ✭✭✭squonk


    I can accept that we won't find out the reason for the disappearance of those people. What I won't accept is a show that creates a series of seemingly unrelated events and that ultimately seems to have treacle-like forward momentum. Right now we're 20% in on this year's run and I still cannot answer honestly what the direction of the show is. I can do long arcs. Usually there's a cause, the effect and a progression to resolution. Right now we've got the cause, and are seemingly mired in the effect. God only knows when a germ of a resolution plan will ever appear.


  • #50
    Falthyron
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,835 ✭✭✭Falthyron


    Deleted User wrote: »
    There is preserving the mystery then there is not telling the audience next to nothing. I just felt like I was being bombarded with far too many off the wall scenarios. I wish I was never told this was made by the same guy who made lost, I'm being far too judgmental already as a result.

    Could you elaborate on Inception as a point of reference?

    Fair enough, but lets allow them time to give the audience answers or snippets about the overall story. We aren't in a hurry! :D

    Inception was famous for dividing audiences because of its conclusion. Many walked out of the cinema feeling cheated or tricked because they needed to know if it was all just a dream or if it was the happy ending that was suggested, basically: did the spinning top fall or did it keep spinning? The lack of an open and clear cut answer led some people to hating the film and calling it pointless as you will never know. Then on the other side of the argument you have those who love the ending to Inception and put it in the category of one of the best films ever made because it didn't tell you. It didn't spoon feed you the answer and make you walk out of the cinema feeling all gooey and happy. Instead, you (the audience) were asked to decide for yourself if it was real or not. Then there are those who would go on to further analyse whether the entire film itself was just an analysis of the process of film making. There are so many layers to the film that you could spend hours working it out and coming up with different answers - a characteristic that many people enjoy.

    I think The Leftovers could very well be something along the lines of what Inception did; divide audiences. It doesn't necessarily make it a bad TV show, but one that approaches TV show writing/production in a different way, and therefore its audience.


  • #51
    Falthyron
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,835 ✭✭✭Falthyron


    squonk wrote: »
    I can accept that we won't find out the reason for the disappearance of those people. What I won't accept is a show that creates a series of seemingly unrelated events and that ultimately seems to have treacle-like forward momentum. Right now we're 20% in on this year's run and I still cannot answer honestly what the direction of the show is. I can do long arcs. Usually there's a cause, the effect and a progression to resolution. Right now we've got the cause, and are seemingly mired in the effect. God only knows when a germ of a resolution plan will ever appear.

    These events may yet prove to have importance to the overall story, but we won't know yet. I understand what you are saying about the cause and effect. For me, however, the cause and effect right now is the characters. We are watching how people deal with this kind of scenario. How do you accept loved ones disappearing without a trace. Maybe they will come back, maybe they won't. Were they the bad people and we are the good, or is it vice versa? And if its vice versa, what's the point in surviving? Why not just give up? Maybe someone has answers, maybe they are lying? Maybe some people will take advantage of the disappearance for financial or political gain? The show is trying to provoke the questions and problems faced by people who quite simply do not know how to deal with this scenario. We are seeing the different reactions, motives, feelings, and in a sense (as one poster here said), the frustration of it all. We need to feel as frustrated about this whole thing as they do, otherwise we won't understand the actions they take or their reasoning.


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