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Why is it wrong to oppose mass immigration?

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    #332
    RGDATA!
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,324 ✭✭✭RGDATA!


    hotbabe1992 wrote: »
    Why is it the come all the way to ireland,whether they arrive in the so called first safe country or not,why is it they travel so long to come to ireland.Surely its not for our shamrocks and guiness is it ? :)

    Maybe it's our literary tradition, the likes of Sean O'Casey, Ann Enright etc.? Am I warm?


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    #333
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,792 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    hotbabe1992 wrote: »
    No,none of what i pointed out was racist,where did i mention the colour of skin or race,i said i had no problems with africans and have met quite a few in the town im from.
    Fine. Let's call it xenophobia instead - apparently it's OK to consider foreigners less worthy of the fundamental human right to life, as long as you don't actually spell out the distinction by skin colour.
    The insinuations of racist were clearly all over this thread,and as kevin myers has previously said it is impossible to have a rational logical debate/discussion without being hysterically branded a racist.

    So you have proven my point.
    Have I bollox. You don't get to claim that your arguments are not xenophobic by claiming that you're being oppressed by being called out on your xenophobia, even if you've attempted to inoculate the discussion in advance by predicting that you'll be called on it.


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    #334
    Frank Grimes
    Registered Users Posts: 5,238 ✭✭✭Frank Grimes


    hotbabe1992 wrote: »
    No,none of what i pointed out was racist,where did i mention the colour of skin or race,i said i had no problems with africans and have met quite a few in the town im from.
    You're the one who has lumped "Africans" into a category of a group of people who do not appear to 'merit' interventions. You did the same thing on a thread on Afterhours too, you were a bit more explicit about it there though.
    The insinuations of racist were clearly all over this thread,and as kevin myers has previously said it is impossible to have a rational logical debate/discussion without being hysterically branded a racist.

    So you have proven my point.
    I think I'll take lectures on rational, logical debates from someone else thanks.


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    #335
    Count Dooku
    Registered Users Posts: 2,416 ✭✭✭Count Dooku


    Nodin wrote: »
    The dread wave of Bulgarians and Romanians hasn't occurred yet. They are Europeans, btw.
    Really?
    CRIMINAL gangs are flying into Dublin for weekend iPhone theft sprees which can net thousands of euro
    One professional pick pocket was nabbed with nine stolen phones from one nightclub alone.

    Gardai have now launched a major operation against the marauding foreign gangs, mainly consisting of young smartly dressed men and women from Romania and Bulgaria.
    http://www.herald.ie/news/gangs-flying-in-to-steal-iphones-29130404.html

    Organised Romanian street gangs who were responsible for a major epidemic of pick-pocketing crime in Dublin city centre last month have either fled the country to target tourists in London or are locked up.
    Pickpocketing offences rose by a staggering 200pc in the south city in May and June, but a garda clampdown led to more than 40 arrests and sources say that the problem "has largely abated".
    http://www.herald.ie/news/romanian-pickpocket-gangs-driven-out-of-city-28013354.html


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    #336
    Pro Hoc Vice
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,087 ✭✭✭Pro Hoc Vice


    hotbabe1992 wrote: »
    While the european population may be decreasing ie smaller birth rates,and older pregnancies..
    The immigration population is on the increase,and immigration is increasing into the uk by way of bulgarians and romanians,its not decreaasing,so no matter how you try to discount it or argue it down its just not working.

    It maybe hard to become an immigrant in ireland,but that doesnt deter asylum seekers who hop from country to country by way of entering the eu and deliberately turn up in ireland and the uk.

    The uk currently has 63 million people in it,and thats not counting the illegals and those who generally wont fill out the forms for fear of being caught.


    Can you do me a favour take a position on a topic, stick to it, argue it, not hop around trying to connect issues that have no relation to each other.


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    #337
    Pro Hoc Vice
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,087 ✭✭✭Pro Hoc Vice


    hotbabe1992 wrote: »
    Why is it the come all the way to ireland,whether they arrive in the so called first safe country or not,why is it they travel so long to come to ireland.Surely its not for our shamrocks and guiness is it ? :)


    Do you even know the figure for Asylum, here is a hint I have quoted them. Often people do not claim in first country for varied reasons some good some bad. A good reason is the person has family who is in Ireland, a bad reason is they perceive Ireland to be an easy country to get Asylum


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    #338
    Count Dooku
    Registered Users Posts: 2,416 ✭✭✭Count Dooku


    Frank Grimes wrote: »
    Even if that healthcare is what gives them the ability to survive? Can you really not see the problem with what you are saying?
    Humanitarian aid is making situation only worse, forcing people of Africa rely on aid only
    Ethiopia,%20population%20and%20food%20imports.PNG
    But of coarse it is great business with a lot of respect and massive salaries for CEO and other staff


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    #339
    Frank Grimes
    Registered Users Posts: 5,238 ✭✭✭Frank Grimes


    Count Dooku wrote: »
    Humanitarian aid is making situation only worse, forcing people of Africa rely on aid only
    I wasn't talking about Africa specifically in that post.


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    #340
    Pro Hoc Vice
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,087 ✭✭✭Pro Hoc Vice


    hotbabe1992 wrote: »
    Dont get me wrong i have given to bothar(you know sending animals over by way of plane/boat,more co2 lol,to these african places),and i have give to animal shelters and also the capuchin brothers.

    Yes it is propping people up,and im personally debating with myself will i give to any charity next year bar the animals,not just in light of the CRC charity top up scandal,and i have worked in charities,and some of the execs driving around in their mercs turning up at any hour they please and using the charity bank account as their own personal account,has really got me thinking - is it really all worth it???

    Here we are propping up people ,that do not have the sense to survive off their own merit,should we be propping up yet more human beings,when there are too many of them in the first place.

    Can you not agree that human beings have overproportionately infested this planet more than any species of animal on this earth.

    And we are propping up more of them???

    If this was a conversation about animals a lot of people would agree.

    This is the double standard here.


    If you want to debate dependency culture please do so, this is about immigration. A person can not claim asylum because they are starving, or because they are poor. In fact most if not all Asylum seekers are from the middle classes. Please can you pick a topic and find the right forum and argue it. You are hopping around like a rabbit in heat.


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    #341
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Count Dooku wrote: »
    Really?

    Please don't take remarks out of context.

    Are you implying that ordinary Bulgarians and Romanians are automatically criminally inclined?


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    #342
    cloudatlas
    Registered Users Posts: 3,709 ✭✭✭cloudatlas


    I agree the English media have taken a very xenophobic lean but I have some concerns-

    I watched an rte documentary this year about homeless on our streets. The majority are Eastern European, some are too ashamed to go home to their families after they lost everything here, some have fallen into drug alcohol abuse, others are trying to get back into work. What will happen if more come?

    Romania was a hub of people trafficking about seven years ago, has that changed?

    Can we give these people the lives they deserve or will they just be another face on the street holding a cup out?


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    #343
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    hotbabe1992 wrote: »
    No,none of what i pointed out was racist,where did i mention the colour of skin or race,i said i had no problems with africans and have met quite a few in the town im from.

    .
    (My bold)

    I'm afraid that's a nonsense.

    With regard to black people -
    They are over represented all over the world not just on the political scene
    they are everywhere,they are set to double their population by 2.4 billion,and
    you dont see this as a huge problem,not just socially but enviornmentally?
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=87671053&postcount=115
    (my bold and underline)

    Given in answer to why immigrants (implicitly black immigrants) should not be represented here politically -
    They are politically represented all over the world,look at africa,look
    at america right up to canada and down to south america,there are african
    ghettos and neighbourhoods everywhere in the eu too..

    Why do they need
    to be here to get political representation here too..
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=87670092&postcount=96


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    #344
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    cloudatlas wrote: »
    I agree the English media have taken a very xenophobic lean but I have some concerns-

    I watched an rte documentary this year about homeless on our streets. The majority are Eastern European, some are too ashamed to go home to their families after they lost everything here, some have fallen into drug alcohol abuse, others are trying to get back into work. What will happen if more come?

    Romania was a hub of people trafficking about seven years ago, has that changed?

    Can we give these people the lives they deserve or will they just be another face on the street holding a cup out?


    Why would they? Theres not that much to draw anyone at the moment.


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    #345
    hotbabe1992
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 602 ✭✭✭hotbabe1992


    (My bold)

    I'm afraid that's a nonsense.

    With regard to black people -

    No its not a nonsense,what you are doing is a nonsense trying to implicate me as a racist,i said i have no problem with black people and i stand by that,but there are far too many of them being propped up.They wouldnt have survived off thier own merit,africas population is set to double by 2.4 billion yes billion and you dont somehow see that as a problem with regard to overpopulation and putting a strain on enviornmental resources and public services?And you know what if all these africans where white i would still say the same thing..
    If you want to debate dependency culture please do so, this is about immigration.

    The dependency culture also rears its ugly head by way of immigration they come over here to eventually put a strain on our better managed although not perfect resources.

    Immigration and the dependency culture go hand in hand im afraid.If you cannot make the connection you are blinded by your own pro immigration bias.
    Can you do me a favour take a position on a topic, stick to it, argue it, not hop around trying to connect issues that have no relation to each other.
    A lot of poor third world countries including india are going to go through whats a population explosion and you are saying there is no connection when they fall over themselves coming off planes and boats over here to ireland and the uk???


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    #346
    cloudatlas
    Registered Users Posts: 3,709 ✭✭✭cloudatlas


    Nodin wrote: »
    Why would they? Theres not that much to draw anyone at the moment.

    Um desperation,hearsay, they hear it's better than their own country. Actually funnily enough I'm sitting next to a Romanian lady in an internet cafe now she is looking for nanny work so she can start in January, I hope she gets the job.

    What about the U.K. I think it's obvious why so many people of different nationalities are there, it's easy for them to set up networks, build communities form contacts.


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    #347
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,307 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    hotbabe1992 wrote: »
    The insinuations of racist were clearly all over this thread,and as kevin myers has previously said it is impossible to have a rational logical debate/discussion without being hysterically branded a racist.

    Clearly you're more deserving of being called a spider hysteric, given that a spider in a box of bananas in Cork is somehow down to lax immigration policy?! Creatures of various shades and sizes have been piggybacking fruit shipments since fruit shipping began - and long before Ireland got a sniff of multi-culturalism.

    Simply claiming that discussion is being stifled by repeated accusations of racism, doesn't actually make it so. As mentioned, you've subsequently delved off into solid racist rhetoric yourself in this thread, but it's mixed in with such a range of bizarre opinions, and fictions, that it's hard to know if it's bigotry or just simple ignorance.


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    #348
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    cloudatlas wrote: »
    Um desperation,hearsay, they hear it's better than their own country. Actually funnily enough I'm sitting next to a Romanian lady in an internet cafe now she is looking for nanny work so she can start in January, I hope she gets the job.

    What about the U.K. I think it's obvious why so many people of different nationalities are there, it's easy for them to set up networks, build communities form contacts.

    Britain is certainly more attractive than here but whether or not that attracts vast numbers I couldn't say. I presume they have a similar 'can't arrive and claim' set up as here, so I can't see that much of a problem, tbh.


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    #349
    hotbabe1992
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 602 ✭✭✭hotbabe1992


    you've subsequently delved off into solid racist rhetoric yourself in this thread

    Wheres the racist rhetoric?

    The issue of mass immigration?

    The lack of controls over movement of goods and people? (Ie the poisionous spider story which i can back up).

    The issue of overpopulation?

    The impact this has on the enviornment,and the overstretching of public health services and other public services?

    The issue of humanitarianism?

    Where did i point out their colour of skin exactly?

    You are aggressively looking for things that arent nessecarily there..


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    #350
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    hotbabe1992 wrote: »
    (.............................)

    The dependency culture also rears its ugly head by way of immigration they come over here to eventually put a strain on our better managed although not perfect resources.

    Immigration and the dependency culture go hand in hand im afraid.If you cannot make the connection you are blinded by your own pro immigration bias.

    Nope, no xenophobia there.....


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    #351
    cloudatlas
    Registered Users Posts: 3,709 ✭✭✭cloudatlas


    Nodin wrote: »
    Britain is certainly more attractive than here but whether or not that attracts vast numbers I couldn't say. I presume they have a similar 'can't arrive and claim' set up as here, so I can't see that much of a problem, tbh.

    It is when they end up on the streets and they are treated like human waste, when a cap could be put on immigration until the situation recovers. Don't get me wrong I think the O.P. is absurd 20% is not high but it's the people who fall through the cracks and the human trafficking that worries me.


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    #352
    hotbabe1992
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 602 ✭✭✭hotbabe1992


    Nope, no xenophobia there.....

    I abhor the sarcastic digs btw.

    The fact that they come here shows their is a failing somewhere in their life,why can't they make a sucessful living for themselves in their own country,and why cant they make their country and be determined to make their own country a better place?

    Im not saying end all immigration permanently im saying end it temporarily and re-negotiate the terms of being a member of the european union.

    Have better controls on immigration something like we see in border control australia,im not just saying this for the movement of people ,im saying this also for the movement of goods too.


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    #353
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    cloudatlas wrote: »
    It is when they end up on the streets and they are treated like human waste, when a cap could be put on emigration until the situation recovers. Don't get me wrong I think the O.P. is absurd 20% is not high but it's the people who fall through the cracks and human trafficking that worries me.

    ...it should be remembered that human trafficking will go on regardless of caps or policies as its an illegal activity focussed on a black market.


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    #354
    hotbabe1992
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 602 ✭✭✭hotbabe1992


    Well nodin there might be less of it,maybe it would be easier to manage then.


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    #355
    cloudatlas
    Registered Users Posts: 3,709 ✭✭✭cloudatlas


    Nodin wrote: »
    ...it should be remembered that human trafficking will go on regardless of caps or policies as its an illegal activity focussed on a black market.

    Young girls can be coerced to come here with the promise of work and then subjected to a life of slavery, it'll be easier now. I'm just asking questions, you've asked me some more questions and ignored all of mine. What do you think?


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    #356
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,307 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    hotbabe1992 wrote: »
    Where did i point out their colour of skin exactly?

    If this is your criteria for what qualifies racism, then you might need to reassess things a tad. How about this for a tester:
    Those Jews really shouldn't being coming into our 1930's Germany. They're tolerable in small numbers, but any more and they'll start to change our Germanic culture, with all of their foreign cultural influences. I've heard they carry diseases too - spreading them around as they migrate from nation to nation. And as for their drain on the good citizens of the Reich! - mark my words - they'll end up bleeding us dry! They can't fend for themselves elsewhere you know. That's why they end coming here - we're too good to them - we really should let nature take it's course and let them starve elsewhere.

    Now - substitute Africans (or whatever) for Jews, and let me know what's the degree of distinction between yourself and my notional avid 1930's reader of Der Stürmer? Not a mention of skin colour there either.


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    #357
    Pro Hoc Vice
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,087 ✭✭✭Pro Hoc Vice


    hotbabe1992 wrote: »
    No its not a nonsense,what you are doing is a nonsense trying to implicate me as a racist,i said i have no problem with black people and i stand by that,but there are far too many of them being propped up.They wouldnt have survived off thier own merit,africas population is set to double by 2.4 billion yes billion and you dont somehow see that as a problem with regard to overpopulation and putting a strain on enviornmental resources and public services?And you know what if all these africans where white i would still say the same thing..



    The dependency culture also rears its ugly head by way of immigration they come over here to eventually put a strain on our better managed although not perfect resources.

    Immigration and the dependency culture go hand in hand im afraid.If you cannot make the connection you are blinded by your own pro immigration bias.

    A lot of poor third world countries including india are going to go through whats a population explosion and you are saying there is no connection when they fall over themselves coming off planes and boats over here to ireland and the uk???

    No I'm blinded by your ridiculous arguments. Asylum has nothing to do with dependency culture, if you can't see that it's because you are blinded by you uneducated views. Just a little bit of facts may set you straight. Can you point out where I have advocated pro immigration. You can't even see the difference between a person who does no more than give facts from one who puts forward opinions.


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    #358
    hotbabe1992
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 602 ✭✭✭hotbabe1992


    Now - substitute Africans (or whatever) for Jews, and let me know what's the degree of distinction between yourself and my notional avid 1930's reader of Der Stürmer? Not a mention of skin colour there either.

    So because im asking for tighter controls on mass immigration,you are putting out the suggestion that im like these guys in germany from the 1930's?


    This is precisely why we cannot have the discussion on immigration,as there is always someone who will aggressively look for things that arent there,ie racist,bigot bigot!

    Or to cross reference it with what some german guy said in the 1930's.. :)


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    #359
    Pro Hoc Vice
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,087 ✭✭✭Pro Hoc Vice


    hotbabe1992 wrote: »
    I abhor the sarcastic digs btw.

    The fact that they come here shows their is a failing somewhere in their life,why can't they make a sucessful living for themselves in their own country,and why cant they make their country and be determined to make their own country a better place?

    Im not saying end all immigration permanently im saying end it temporarily and re-negotiate the terms of being a member of the european union.

    Have better controls on immigration something like we see in border control australia,im not just saying this for the movement of people ,im saying this also for the movement of goods too.

    That will fix the dependency culture issue all the good that the west needs we can leave in the rest of the world, we can starve instead of other countries. I like that idea.

    You have proved one thing to me, you have not got a clue. But at least I know this rubbish will stop by 10pm your bed time. Yes that is a sarcastic dig because your opinions deserve it.


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    #360
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,307 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    hotbabe1992 wrote: »
    So because im asking for tighter controls on mass immigration,you are putting out the suggestion that im like these guys in germany from the 1930's?


    This is precisely why we cannot have the discussion on immigration,as there is always someone who will aggressively look for things that arent there,ie racist,bigot bigot!

    Or to cross reference it with what some german guy said in the 1930's.. :)

    Now that you've repeated your standard line - Are you going to tell me what the distinction between the two opinions is?


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    #361
    hotbabe1992
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 602 ✭✭✭hotbabe1992


    Asylum has nothing to do with dependency culture

    I literally cannot believe what you are saying LOL !!!! :eek:

    Asylum has nothing to do with dependency culture,there looking for a hand off the state and cannot survive off their own bat.. I mean really?Can you not just re-read carefully what you type the next time?? :eek:


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