Ireland v. New Zealand build-up thread

Kanrith · 17-11-2013 07:10PM

Maybe Drico and Cronin in the center, always seem to combine well :P

Swiwi. · 17-11-2013 07:28PM

sydthebeat wrote: »

Did ardie saveau travel? Is love to see him play.
But on a whole I think we will see much the same as yesterday apart from enforced injuries. I wouldn't be disappointed to see retallick not start as i think he's a class player who will only get better.

Heaslip v read will be intriguing. ...

As an "apprentice". I'm not sure he figures much between here and 2015, but you can mark him down for the 2017 Lions, barring injury.

Swiwi. · 17-11-2013 07:29PM

Tox56 wrote: »

Heaslip needs a kick up the arse, short of dropping him playing directly opposite the best player in the world might be the only way to do that, when he was seriously motivated to make the Lions tour he was playing out of his skin

His problem is that he has no competition. Whatsoever. Hopefully TOD or someone can give him a run for his money and help him re-up the ante.

Liveforrugby · 17-11-2013 07:43PM

Would love to see Ardie Savea capped, although it would be a massive insult to us.

All blacks to start first 15 and empty the bench once game is won after 40 I'd imagine.

Swiwi. · 17-11-2013 07:54PM

http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/all-blacks/9411370/All-Blacks-seek-to-keep-focus

bilston · 17-11-2013 08:07PM

ScissorPaperRock wrote: »

Really disappointed to hear that about Olding. He was fast becoming my favourite upcoming player. Very disappointing if he can't be involved in the Six Nations.

I was reading on UAFC that at a recent meet the players night Johann Muller was saying that Olding would be a world class player for Ireland for the next decade. This injury is really bad news, he will be out for a long time and who is to say how he will recover.

On a more positive note the immediate prognosis last year was that Tommy Bowes season was over but he made it back in four months. Hopefully the same is true for Olding when he gets hos MRI scan results in the next few days.

Rightwing · 17-11-2013 08:08PM

Bookies have it at +20. Seems about right, there'll have to be some sort of backlash.

Glass Prison 1214 · 17-11-2013 08:08PM

Swiwi. wrote: »

Yeah, I agree. Although after yesterday, I'm not at all convinced Ross is the man to do it. I would actually drop Ross, his time is up, promote Marty Moore to the bench and give Fitzpatrick another start.

Super XV 2014 will be "Operation Find New AB Front Row" as far as I'm concerned.

I know it won't happen but if Crockett is to start I would start Moore, Crockett is 6'4 while Moore is 5'11. Such a height difference would really benefit Moore and I reckon he is the man who would most likely take advantage.

Swiwi would you consider Afoa to be an option for 2015? It looks likely he is going to leave Ulster at the end of the season and he has been scrummaging very well for the last couple of seasons so if he returns to New Zealand then surely he would be the best tighthead available?

Swiwi. · 17-11-2013 08:16PM

Glass Prison 1214 wrote: »

I know it won't happen but if Crockett is to start I would start Moore, Crockett is 6'4 while Moore is 5'11. Such a height difference would really benefit Moore and I reckon he is the man who would most likely take advantage.

Swiwi would you consider Afoa to be an option for 2015? It looks likely he is going to leave Ulster at the end of the season and he has been scrummaging very well for the last couple of seasons so if he returns to New Zealand then surely he would be the best tighthead available?

Yeah it's crossed my mind. He suffered from always being the bench option to cover both sides of the scrum, but with the 23-man squad he can concentrate on TH. His problem might be leaving it too late by not returning for SXV 2014. He would have to have a superb SXV 2015, and probably hope some others lose form. But SBW will return in 2015 and definitely be selected, so it's possible. He shouldn't go back to the Blues though, as he would be competing with Faumuina. Hurricanes or Highlanders would be his best bet.

Tox56 · 17-11-2013 08:18PM

bilston wrote: »

I was reading on UAFC that at a recent meet the players night Johann Muller was saying that Olding would be a world class player for Ireland for the next decade. This injury is really bad news, he will be out for a long time and who is to say how he will recover.

On a more positive note the immediate prognosis last year was that Tommy Bowes season was over but he made it back in four months. Hopefully the same is true for Olding when he gets hos MRI scan results in the next few days.

Has there been any official report from Ulster on the injury or is this just eyewitnesses from the game? He is the one player I was looking forward to seeing most in green

Teferi · 17-11-2013 08:33PM

Swiwi. wrote: »

http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/all-blacks/9411370/All-Blacks-seek-to-keep-focus

There's a bit of cure hoorism going on there. There is only one outcome of the upcoming game.

Tox56 · 17-11-2013 08:37PM

Kanrith wrote: »

Maybe Drico and Cronin in the center, always seem to combine well :P

Such a shame Henderson is injured, we could use an extra winger..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HDgt-4AfXfo&t=0m26s

awec · 17-11-2013 08:43PM

Swiwi. wrote: »

I would go with Healy, Best, Fitzpatrick, Tuohy, POC, POM, SOB, Heaslip, Murray, Jackson, McFadden, Marshall, BOD, Bowe, Kearney.

There are not really too many other options.

I can never understand why neither Leinster nor Ireland have given McFadden much of a run at 12. He's not a winger, despite his best efforts. He's fine there, but when you compare him to North, Savea, Habana, Bowe (when on form) etc it's a no-contest.

+100 for the inclusion of Tuohy. That would be my team. I am beginning to sound like a broken record.

Toner hasn't been bad but I'm not sure he's much use in the scrum at this level with that big long pair of legs of his. I think POC and Tuohy would be a better pairing and you don't need Toner's lineouts when POC is there.

Swiwi. · 17-11-2013 08:45PM

awec wrote: »

+100 for the inclusion of Tuohy. That would be my team. I am beginning to sound like a broken record.

Toner hasn't been bad but I'm not sure he's much use in the scrum at this level with that big long pair of legs of his. I think POC and Tuohy would be a better pairing and you don't need Toner's lineouts when POC is there.

There's no point Ireland trying to out-athletic NZ. So they have to try and out-muscle them. Another Ulsterman in Ferris would have been handy in that regard. I'm like a doubting Thomas though, I will have to see Ferris on the field with my own eyes before I believe he's back.

bilston · 17-11-2013 08:46PM

Tox56 wrote: »

Has there been any official report from Ulster on the injury or is this just eyewitnesses from the game? He is the one player I was looking forward to seeing most in green

Nothing official but there has been stuff on Twitter. Still I think they probably have to wait a few days to know the extent of the injury anyway so fingers crossed its not as bad as feared.

No positives to be had as Olding is the sort of youngster you'd go out of your way to watch. Will mean more opportunities for Farrell who himself suffered a horrendous injury last season though.

danthefan · 17-11-2013 09:07PM

Swiwi. wrote: »

Anyone have any thoughts on which NZ 15 should front, or are ye all happy to take my selection as gospel...

Could there be a case to stick Smith back on the wing? He seemed a bit quieter in the centre against England than his previous outings on the wing.

Utah_Saint · 17-11-2013 09:26PM

olding would have started of Ireland in the 2014 6n if he kept progressing. I haven't seen an Irish back as talented as him since BOD...

Swiwi. · 17-11-2013 10:02PM

danthefan wrote: »

Could there be a case to stick Smith back on the wing? He seemed a bit quieter in the centre against England than his previous outings on the wing.

Yes there could, Dan (if that's your name, I've discovered a fair number of people use pseudonyms on this site...not that my name actually is Swiwi :pac:)...

...but who to put in his place? The only proven 13 on tour is Ryan Crotty, who really is SXV level at best IMO. There are bells for Piutau, but this is purely based on the romance of the idea, I don't think he's ever played a SXV game there, although apparently he played 13 at college level.

There's no doubt Smith has faded from his glorious 4N campaign, but he was solid enough in the weekend. If anything, it proves that no matter the talent 13 is actually a very hard position to play well at international level, and takes time to learn.

Suasdaguna1 · 17-11-2013 11:24PM

I'll take my hat off to Schmidt if his selection policy is u, u and u goodbye and selects a radial selection. We are going to get shafted by min 40pts next week anyway. Put new fellas in and let's learn from the thumping forthcoming.

Just my 2c

Phoeey · 17-11-2013 11:33PM

1. Cian Healy
2. Sean Cronin
3. Declan Fitzpatrick
4. Paul O' Connell ©
5. Dan Touhy
6. Peter O' Mahony
7. Sean O' Brien
8. Jamie Heaslip
9. Conor Murray
10. Johnny Sexton/Paddy Jackson
11. Fergus McFadden
12/13. Luke Marshall
13/12. Gordon D'arcy
14. Tommy Bowe/Luke Fitzgerald
15. Rob Kearney/Tommy Bowe

16. Rory Best
17. Jack McGrath
18. Martin Moore
19. Mike McCarthy
20. Kevin McLaughlin/Shane Jennings
21. Isaac Boss
22. Paddy Jackson/Ian Madigan
23. Brian O' Driscoll/Luke Fitzgerald/Andrew Trimble/Dave Kearney

Suasdaguna1 · 17-11-2013 11:45PM

Phoeey wrote: »

1. Cian Healy
2. Sean Cronin
3. Declan Fitzpatrick
4. Paul O' Connell ©
5. Dan Touhy
6. Peter O' Mahony
7. Sean O' Brien
8. Jamie Heaslip
9. Conor Murray
10. Johnny Sexton/Paddy Jackson
11. Fergus McFadden
12/13. Luke Marshall
13/12. Gordon D'arcy
14. Tommy Bowe/Luke Fitzgerald
15. Rob Kearney/Tommy Bowe

16. Rory Best
17. Jack McGrath
18. Martin Moore
19. Mike McCarthy
20. Kevin McLaughlin/Shane Jennings
21. Isaac Boss
22. Paddy Jackson/Ian Madigan
23. Brian O' Driscoll/Luke Fitzgerald/Andrew Trimble/Dave Kearney

Yeah I'll buy that......as an aside....glad to see Toner sent packing. I'm sure he's a terribly nice guy but it was grimacing to watch him as a passenger in the mauls last sat.

17-11-2013 11:46PM

My team for next week's test with some rationale:

1. Cian Healy - The only truly international quality option here; decent scrummager, very good ball carrier and worker at the breakdown.

2. Sean Cronin - Best is good around the park but his lineouts are so suspect that we risk conceding tries when he has to throw in our 22. Against the All Blacks his nerves are going to be particularly frayed so we should look to Cronin, who is great with ball in hand, although probably not as competent at the breakdown as Best.

3. Declan Fitzpatrick (if fit) - Undoubtedly he has the talent but his fitness is the real question here. Ross has seriously struggled this season and was given an unforgiving beatdown against Oz. Yes, that's right, Oz. He can't be trusted against a better front five, which the ABs possess. Fitzpatrick has not disappointed at scrum time and offers more around the park than Ross so he should get the nod.

4. Paul O'Connell - Had a poor game on Saturday, but it must be remembered that Oz was his first 80 minutes since coming back from injury. He remains a class act and will be needed in the row this weekend.

5. Dan Tuohy - I can't help but feel that some of our scrum woes were due to the lack of real muscle in the second row. Devin Toner had a poor showing and seems totally and utterly exposed against top quality opposition. The introduction of Tuohy should provide some extra power at scrum time at the tight head side and give us the ability to achieve parity at that set piece. It's also hard to ignore the form he has shown for Ulster, though Schmidt seems to have.

6. Peter O'Mahony - An industrious worker who will have to bulk up and improve his defensive game if he is to progress at international level. Is only 24 and gets better with every season though so faith should be maintained. The boy has real ability.

7. Sean O'Brien - One of our precious few top quality internationals. Not a natural openside but he is one of the players that the ABs will not want to see with ball in hand. The first name on the teamsheet.

8. Jamie Heaslip - Went missing against Oz but does a lot of breakdown work, which is an area we will struggle to gain parity in (although its difficult to think of an area we will gain parity in). Generally the backrow suffers from a lack of credible alternatives.

9. Conor Murray - The only SH in Ireland that is currently worthy of sharing a pitch with the ABs. Reddan, though once a very good and nippy operator, is past his best and the Oz match proved it. Murray is amongst the best of the home nations SH and needs to be there.

10. Ian Madigan - When on song, the guy is brilliant. A good distributor, fine place kicker, and has the ability to beat men one on one. Crucially, he has far more game experience than Jackson who, at 21, is still somewhat wet behind the ears. In the fullness of time I would back Jackson to be the better 10, but at this point I feel Madigan deserves the run and is less likely to be overawed by the occasion. He just might provide some individual moments of magic too.

11. Fergus McFadden - One of the few players to come out of the Oz match with his reputation intact. Will never make a World XV but has earnt the right to play this match.

12. Luke Marshall - Like Ferg he put in a lot of effort at the weekend and deserves to remain on, made some good line breaks and is much more likely to make something happen on the pitch than D'arcy.

13. Brian O'Driscoll - Unfortunately the weekend proved something that we know has been coming for a while now. Against top quality international opposition he no longer has the pace to be dangerous. Nevertheless, he is still our best option here.

14. Tommy Bowe - The best winger we have, at least on paper. Had a poor Lions tour and never looked like doing much in the AI games we've played so far. Let's hope that this a temporary dip in form rather than him deciding to go Rockococo on us.

15. Robert Kearney - The boy has class but has been average for us on too many recent occasions. A lack of alternatives should see him retain the jersey.

16. Rory Best
17. Jack McGrath
18. Mike Ross
19. Mike McCarthy
20. Shane Jennings
21. Isaac Boss
22. Paddy Jackon
23. Luke Fitzgerald

phog · 17-11-2013 11:52PM

wittycynic wrote: »

My team for next week's test with some rationale:

1. Cian Healy - The only truly international quality option here; decent scrummager, very good ball carrier and worker at the breakdown.

2. Sean Cronin - Best is good around the park but his lineouts are so suspect that we risk conceding tries when he has to throw in our 22. Against the All Blacks his nerves are going to be particularly frayed so we should look to Cronin, who is great with ball in hand, although probably not as competent at the breakdown as Best.

3. Declan Fitzpatrick (if fit) - Undoubtedly he has the talent but his fitness is the real question here. Ross has seriously struggled this season and was given an unforgiving beatdown against Oz. Yes, that's right, Oz. He can't be trusted against a better front five, which the ABs possess. Fitzpatrick has not disappointed at scrum time and offers more around the park than Ross so he should get the nod.

4. Paul O'Connell - Had a poor game on Saturday, but it must be remembered that Oz was his first 80 minutes since coming back from injury. He remains a class act and will be needed in the row this weekend.

5. Dan Tuohy - I can't help but feel that some of our scrum woes were due to the lack of real muscle in the second row. Devin Toner had a poor showing and seems totally and utterly exposed against top quality opposition. The introduction of Tuohy should provide some extra power at scrum time at the tight head side and give us the ability to achieve parity at that set piece. It's also hard to ignore the form he has shown for Ulster, though Schmidt seems to have.

6. Peter O'Mahony - An industrious worker who will have to bulk up and improve his defensive game if he is to progress at international level. Is only 24 and gets better with every season though so faith should be maintained. The boy has real ability.

7. Sean O'Brien - One of our precious few top quality internationals. Not a natural openside but he is one of the players that the ABs will not want to see with ball in hand. The first name on the teamsheet.

8. Jamie Heaslip - Went missing against Oz but does a lot of breakdown work, which is an area we will struggle to gain parity in (although its difficult to think of an area we will gain parity in). Generally the backrow suffers from a lack of credible alternatives.

9. Conor Murray - The only SH in Ireland that is currently worthy of sharing a pitch with the ABs. Reddan, though once a very good and nippy operator, is past his best and the Oz match proved it. Murray is amongst the best of the home nations SH and needs to be there.

10. Ian Madigan - When on song, the guy is brilliant. A good distributor, fine place kicker, and has the ability to beat men one on one. Crucially, he has far more game experience than Jackson who, at 21, is still somewhat wet behind the ears. In the fullness of time I would back Jackson to be the better 10, but at this point I feel Madigan deserves the run and is less likely to be overawed by the occasion. He just might provide some individual moments of magic too.

11. Fergus McFadden - One of the few players to come out of the Oz match with his reputation intact. Will never make a World XV but has earnt the right to play this match.

12. Luke Marshall - Like Ferg he put in a lot of effort at the weekend and deserves to remain on, made some good line breaks and is much more likely to make something happen on the pitch than D'arcy.

13. Brian O'Driscoll - Unfortunately the weekend proved something that we know has been coming for a while now. Against top quality international opposition he no longer has the pace to be dangerous. Nevertheless, he is still our best option here.

14. Tommy Bowe - The best winger we have, at least on paper. Had a poor Lions tour and never looked like doing much in the AI games we've played so far. Let's hope that this a temporary dip in form rather than him deciding to go Rockococo on us.

15. Robert Kearney - The boy has class but has been average for us on too many recent occasions. A lack of alternatives should see him retain the jersey.

16. Rory Best
17. Jack McGrath
18. Mike Ross
19. Mike McCarthy
20. Shane Jennings
21. Isaac Boss
22. Paddy Jackon
23. Luke Fitzgerald

I'd swap Best & Cronin and Madigan & Jackson

Pudsy33 · 18-11-2013 12:03AM

Where has this myth come from that Toner has been poor?

shuffol · 18-11-2013 12:03AM

I see some people entertaining the idea that our scrum problems may have been caused by Toner, it was Ross in trouble all game and I'm pretty sure that it was POC pushing behind him.

Hagz · 18-11-2013 12:07AM

shuffol wrote: »

I see some people entertaining the idea that our scrum problems may have been caused by Toner, it was Ross in trouble all game and I'm pretty sure that it was POC pushing behind him.

Exactly.

Also, although Best had a terrible time last season with throwing. His throwing so far this season has been fine.

bilston · 18-11-2013 12:25AM

Yeah Ive seen one or two posts criticising Best at the lineout yesterday. Surely we lost just two in the whole game, one Toner simply inexplicably dropped the ball and the other POC was simply beaten by the Aussie jumper who read the call so I don't get that at all.

Teferi · 18-11-2013 12:27AM

Pudsy33 wrote: »

Where has this myth come from that Toner has been poor?

Confirmation bias.

Toner has put in two perfectly good performances off the back of a good provincial run. He was certainly one of the few who could be said to have had a half decent game yesterday.

awec · 18-11-2013 12:28AM

Pudsy33 wrote: »

Where has this myth come from that Toner has been poor?

Not poor but I honestly cannot see how he is deemed ahead of Tuohy.

My team would be (based on who is in the training squad and has a slim chance):

1. Healy
2. Best
3. Fitzpatrick
4. POC
5. Tuohy
6. POM
7. SOB
8. Heaslip
9. Murray
10. Jackson
11. McFadden
12. Marshall
13. BOD
14. Bowe
15. Kearney

16. Cronin
17. McGrath
18. Ross
19. McCarthy / Toner
20. McLaughlin / Jennings
21. Boss
22. Madigan
23. Fitzgerald

I would be very surprised if that's the team though.

Quint2010 · 18-11-2013 12:30AM

As we sift through the rubble of yesterdays performance I really don't know what team we should start with next week. But for the half backs I would start Murray and Jackson with Boss and Madigan on the bench. And I would like to see Henshaw start also. I think he has the X factor and is a big physical guy also which I think we need. I would start him on the wing probably in place of McFadden or, whisper it, ahead of BOD who was anonymous yesterday as of the two McFadden deserves to be dropped less. Also I think McLaughlin should start ahead of POM as I simply think POM is not strong enough (yet) for top class international rugby. Touhy and POC in the second row please. And I would take a serious look at this fellow Copeland for the 8 spot as Heaslip was awful yesterday.

So:

Kearney
Bowe
Henshaw
Marshall
McFadden
Jackson
Murray
Healy
Best
Ross (maybe Fitzpatrick or Moore)
Touhy
POC
McLaughlin
SOB
Copeland

Subs:
BOD
Madigan
Boss
McGrath
Cronin
Moore
McCarthy
POM

Ireland v. New Zealand build-up thread

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