Ireland v. New Zealand build-up thread

Grimebox

Pudsy33 wrote: »

Where has this myth come from that Toner has been poor?

He's tall and gangly looking

awec

Quint2010 wrote: »

As we sift through the rubble of yesterdays performance I really don't know what team we should start with next week. But for the half backs I would start Murray and Jackson with Boss and Madigan on the bench. And I would like to see Henshaw start also. I think he has the X factor and is a big physical guy also which I think we need. I would start him on the wing probably in place of McFadden or, whisper it, ahead of BOD who was anonymous yesterday as of the two McFadden deserves to be dropped less. Also I think McLaughlin should start ahead of POM as I simply think POM is not strong enough (yet) for top class international rugby. Touhy and POC in the second row please. And I would take a serious look at this fellow Copeland for the 8 spot as Heaslip was awful yesterday.

So:

Kearney
Bowe
Henshaw
Marshall
McFadden
Jackson
Murray
Healy
Best
Ross (maybe Fitzpatrick or Moore)
Touhy
POC
McLaughlin
SOB
Copeland

Subs:
BOD
Madigan
Boss
McGrath
Cronin
Moore
McCarthy
POM

Tell you what, if that is the team that is announced I will buy you a pint. :pac:

Suasdaguna1

awec wrote: »

Tell you what, if that is the team that is announced I will buy you a pint. :pac:

Ditto, that's been my mantra on this thread and tbh I think Joe is not afraid to cull where those in a previous existence dared not go.

Mahatma Geansai

Teferi wrote: »

Confirmation bias.

Toner has put in two perfectly good performances off the back of a good provincial run. He was certainly one of the few who could be said to have had a half decent game yesterday.

Rather than out of hand dismissing the criticism, could you make a case that will cause his critics to change their minds? Could you offer even 3 instances of Toner putting in a big tackle, or clearing a ruck effectively from the last 2 games to quantify your rating of his performances.

Nobody doubts that he is a very hard worker. He just isn't effective enough.

Quint2010

I think Joe Schmidt will potentially be looking at the blueprint for what Gatland did by dropping BOD in the summer. The AB's will be expecting a clearly failing BOD to play, will know all about him and how to expose him. Schmidt needs to do something to wrestle back some of the momentum the AB's will have after beating England by doing something left-field a little. It worked for Gatland no matter how wrong some of us thought it was at the time and threw the Aussies after the second test win. Think Schmidt needs to do something radical that's for sure and we will learn nothing by playing the same team as played yesterday and by shipping another heavy defeat.

Teferi

Mahatma Geansai wrote: »

Rather than out of hand dismissing the criticism, could you make a case that will cause his critics to change their minds? Could you offer even 3 instances of Toner putting in a big tackle, or clearing a ruck effectively from the last 2 games to quantify your rating of his performances.

Nobody doubts that he is a very hard worker. He just isn't effective enough.

Considering your posting history and the barbs we have traded in the past I quite simply won't be doing anything for you.

awec

There is no chance of BOD being dropped IMO.

Nor should he be - given it's the last time he will play the ABs, as well as Saturday's debacle he will have a point to prove and should be well up for it.

molloyjh

Quint2010 wrote: »

I think Joe Schmidt will potentially be looking at the blueprint for what Gatland did by dropping BOD in the summer. The AB's will be expecting a clearly failing BOD to play, will know all about him and how to expose him. Schmidt needs to do something to wrestle back some of the momentum the AB's will have after beating England by doing something left-field a little. It worked for Gatland no matter how wrong some of us thought it was at the time and threw the Aussies after the second test win. Think Schmidt needs to do something radical that's for sure and we will learn nothing by playing the same team as played yesterday and by shipping another heavy defeat.

The dropping of BOD had little to nothing to do with the Lions series win. The issues in the Aussie camp and their serious lack of depth were the main factors to the Lions win. Dropping Drico because of one bad game makes nonsense. Especially seeing as he'll be going all out on this one. And who is there to go to 13 anyway?

Suasdaguna1

awec wrote: »

There is no chance of BOD being dropped IMO.

Nor should he be - given it's the last time he will play the ABs, as well as Saturday's debacle he will have a point to prove and should be well up for it.

I'd never question a mod but I'll put my hand up here.
No individual is bigger that the team and Joe will be the first to say so. I wouldn't be one bit surprised if there are some radical changes.

Quint2010

molloyjh wrote: »

The dropping of BOD had little to nothing to do with the Lions series win. The issues in the Aussie camp and their serious lack of depth were the main factors to the Lions win. Dropping Drico because of one bad game makes nonsense. Especially seeing as he'll be going all out on this one. And who is there to go to 13 anyway?

As Gatland proved-there is no room for sentiment in international rugby. I believe the dropping of BOD for the third test was absolutely a factor in wrestling the momentum back from the Australians after their victory in the second test. I would hate to think Schmidt would automatically pick a player just because it's his last time facing a particular nation. Next Sunday is not the BOD show. Because to make it that would belittle and trivialise Irish rugby. On yesterday's performance he deserves to be dropped. The only reason he may not be is that there is no outstanding candidate to replace him as maybe there was in The Lions tour (Jamie Roberts). I will also add that he was poor enough last week too and was singled out for criticism by Schmidt afterwards.

awec

Suasdaguna1 wrote: »

I'd never question a mod but I'll put my hand up here.
No individual is bigger that the team and Joe will be the first to say so. I wouldn't be one bit surprised if there are some radical changes.

We are not infallible, you are allowed to question our opinions in rugby related discussions.

shuffol

I think Toner did ok yesterday, I'd still opt for Tuohy myself, my main gripe with Toner is that for a man with much trumpeted handling skills he doesnt make them a factor in his performances enough. Same could be said of Heaslip though. Has all the skills and ability in the world but too often just looks to drop his shoulder and take the contact.

Quint2010

shuffol wrote: »

I think Toner did ok yesterday, I'd still opt for Tuohy myself, my main gripe with Toner is that for a man with much trumpeted handling skills he doesnt make them a factor in his performances enough. Same could be said of Heaslip though. Has all the skills and ability in the world but too often just looks to drop his shoulder and take the contact.

Agree with this Heaslip is good as a ball-carrier in open space but too often gets stopped dead on the gain-line in international rugby.

Swiwi.

There is no way BOD should be dropped. Yes he had a bit of a 'mare of a game but I'd expect him to be substantially better this weekend.

If I'm wrong and he is that poor again, Joe should whisper in his ear "early retirement" as he would just be blocking the development of a new centre in the 6N.

former legend

Swiwi. wrote: »

There is no way BOD should be dropped. Yes he had a bit of a 'mare of a game but I'd expect him to be substantially better this weekend.

If I'm wrong and he is that poor again, Joe should whisper in his ear "early retirement" as he would just be blocking the development of a new centre in the 6N.

Dropping BOD is one thing, the stumbling block is that you then have to pick someone else to play at 13. I can't think of anyone that I would send out against NZ; certainly not Henshaw and there are no more 13s in the squad, unless you count McFadden or Luke Fitz, and I wouldn't be mad on either of those options either.

Suasdaguna1

I know a lot of you throw derision at mr hook but I have no compliants with this article.

http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/george-hook-odriscolls-sad-decline-turning-into-a-tragedy-29762148.html

.ak

Swiwi. wrote: »

There is no way BOD should be dropped. Yes he had a bit of a 'mare of a game but I'd expect him to be substantially better this weekend.

If I'm wrong and he is that poor again, Joe should whisper in his ear "early retirement" as he would just be blocking the development of a new centre in the 6N.

Dunno about that - the ABs will make any player look poor.

BOD will play the 6Ns and rightly so. Hopefully we get some pretenders some game time but an early retirement, bar injury, will be off the cards I reckon.

Quint2010

Thornley remarked that BOD look "tired" on Saturday which is a little mystifying considering he had only played twice this season up until Saturday. "Undercooked" maybe but I am not buying "tired"..

former legend

Suasdaguna1 wrote: »

I know a lot of you throw derision at mr hook but I have no compliants with this article.

http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/george-hook-odriscolls-sad-decline-turning-into-a-tragedy-29762148.html

It's making sweeping statements on the basis of one game though. BOD didn't play well on Saturday, don't think anyone would dispute that, but to then interpret that as meaning that he is finished and that playing on this season was a mistake? It's a bit of a stretch, to say the least.

Far too often, O'Driscoll has carried mediocre Ireland teams on his back; I think he's entitled to an occasional off-day.

Whether staying on for this season turns out to be the right decision can only be judged at the end of the season.

And whatever derision Hook receives is more than warranted. He should never be allowed live this one down:
http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugb...-26686373.html

sydthebeat

Hook has been waiting two years to write that article, He's been claiming bod should have gone to pasture since 2011.

On below par game doesn't mean he's ready for the knackers yard.

Quint2010

sydthebeat wrote: »

Hook has been waiting two years to write that article, He's been claiming bod should have gone to pasture since 2011.

On below par game doesn't mean he's ready for the knackers yard.

BOD was poor last week too.

Artful_Badger

Quint2010 wrote: »

Thornley remarked that BOD look "tired" on Saturday which is a little mystifying considering he had only played twice this season up until Saturday. "Undercooked" maybe but I am not buying "tired"..

He looked sick to me. He was as pale as a ghost. Maybe he picked up a bug or was out of sorts and he was just a bit drained.

sydthebeat

Quint2010 wrote: »

BOD was poor last week too.

Poor because he hared out of a defensive line a few times? We Don't know if a blitz was called and his line weren't sharp enough. We Don't know if the hare defense was the plan. ... He's not the world beater he was Five years ago but he's still our best 13. Henshaw / cave may be the immediate future but ArgenTina is the place for their bedding in.

You miss the point though, hook has been claiming bod as not Good enOugh for international tests for two years, eventually he has to be right...

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience

I'm not that worried tbh, if we can shore up our defense it will go a long way to solving a lot our problems. Obviously some individual performances weren't there but I thought we looked very good in attack until Sexton went off

Sort our defense and cut out the bad kicking and we'll be much more competitive. Think we're missing too many players to win next weekend though

Quint2010

Artful_Badger wrote: »

He was as pale as a ghost.

He is the self-proclaimed "whitest man in sport" after all...

ScissorPaperRock

I know there should be no room for sentimentality in professional sport, but BOD represents so much of what Irish rugby is about that dropping him would be bad for the 'soul' of the game here in Ireland. It would leave a bad taste that could take a long time to get rid of.

Imagine the outcry during the summer amplified by 100. And this time it wouldn't be a foreign coach denying BOD of the opportunity he deserves.

I'm confident that he can perform better than he has, that aside, and aside from the fact that there are no real alternative contenders for the 13 shirt, he has to be given this game.

I'm not one for sentimentality, as I said, but we asked for one more year. We need to back him now.

Swiwi.

former legend wrote: »

Dropping BOD is one thing, the stumbling block is that you then have to pick someone else to play at 13. I can't think of anyone that I would send out against NZ; certainly not Henshaw and there are no more 13s in the squad, unless you count McFadden or Luke Fitz, and I wouldn't be mad on either of those options either.

Totally. BOD must and will start this weekend. But if he has another 4/10 performance, questions will have to be asked. However, I don't anticipate that, BOD is too good, and a last game v the ABs must be of some motivation.

As an aside, who should BOD swap his jersey with? I was hoping Carter would play, as that would seem fitting (one legend to another), maybe Andrew Hore who is retiring, but I guess the 7 jumper would be a good choice.

.ak

Quint2010 wrote: »

BOD was poor last week too.

Poor's a bit of an over statement. He over-shot the line a few times (which is always does, like clockwork, on his return games) in defence but other than that he was grand.

Artful_Badger

If BOD is under performing in a performing side then I'll ask questions.

People have been calling for everyone's heads on the back of that last game. Kearney, Bowe, Heaslip, POC, Reddan, Best, Ross. They havent all suddenly become rubbish they just couldnt get going in a game that was a bit of a disaster.

And even if he was playing the worst rugby of his life he's still not the worst option. To start Fitz, Henshaw, McFadden, Marhsall, Darcy ahead of him is no guarantee we'd be any better off.

.ak

Any word on Sexton?

If you were the coach, and Sexton wasn't 100%, would you select him for this game?