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Numbers up Gerry

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Comments

  • #632
    Crooked Jack
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,678 ✭✭✭Crooked Jack


    Billy86 wrote: »
    I never knew David Cameron was a prominent figure in 1970s/1980s Northern Ireland. Silly me thinking he would have been an upper class English teenager studying in Eton and Oxford for pretty much that entire period. The more you know and all that, I guess.

    I was extracting the urine.
    You get the impression from some posters here that Adams knows everybody who was ever in the RA and everything that ever happened and just isn't telling


  • #633
    K-9
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 43,313 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    Busted Flat. wrote: »
    One of her sons, Robbie McConville, was imprisoned in Long Kesh at the time of her death for Official IRA activities before defecting to the newly formed Irish National Liberation Army in 1974.[3]

    [/URL]

    I never did dispute that, the timing was what I was questioning.
    Happyman42 wrote: »
    If you ever drove around the Bragan area of county Monaghan at night you would realise just how difficult pinpointing a location would be,

    Indeed, with time memories will fade, some don't want to help for whatever reason, some of those who buried the bodies will be dead so even with best will in the world, some will probably never be found.

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



  • #634
    Billy86
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,495 ✭✭✭✭Billy86


    Crooked Jack wrote: »
    I was extracting the urine.
    You get the impression from some posters here that Adams knows everybody who was ever in the RA and everything that ever happened and just isn't telling
    I don't think it's at all unrealistic to suspect he has a good number of connections and at least a strong inkling of certain goings-on that he isn't giving away though. Not necessarily saying he did (or didn't) play one of the main roles in the IRA, but with that much smoke there has to be at least a small few fires somewhere.


  • #635
    nacho libre
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,779 ✭✭✭✭nacho libre


    Crooked Jack wrote: »
    I was extracting the urine.
    You get the impression from some posters here that Adams knows everybody who was ever in the RA and everything that ever happened and just isn't telling

    If he had a senior role in the Army Council, then it's not unreasonable to suggest he would have knowledge of most military operations that were being carried out around that time. True, there might be operations that were not officially sanctioned that he was not aware of. Is the killing of this woman, one of them, i don't know. Personally i would believe that a man(Hughes) who was prepared to starve himself to death for his beliefs, can not just be easily dismissed as a liar with an axe to grind against a former friend. Also, we don't know what others who are still alive have put to tape. They may well back up what he has said.


  • #636
    Lord Trollington
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,423 ✭✭✭Lord Trollington


    It was a very complex situation in the North during the 60's,70's and 80's.

    Majority of us in the south will never fully understand the conditions in which Catholics and indeed Protestants had to live.

    The Catholics for the most part were happy to have the IRA on their side due to the oppression from the Protestants and the British Army. Many joined the IRA for that very reason.

    As was stated last night by one former member, his Dad allowed him to join the IRA but wouldn't allow him a pint of beer. Anyone joining the organisation new what they were getting themselves into.

    What I find highly hypocritical was that one particular chap was involved in a coup which resulted in a British Army officer who was undercover in laundry van being killed. This chap ended up being murdered himself for being a suspected informer.
    Why was his family not asked about his involvement in the death of the British agent. Asked were they proud of this or his actions.

    You live by the sword, you have to be willing to die by it also.


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  • #637
    delthedriver
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,955 ✭✭✭delthedriver


    No
    Happyman42 wrote: »
    I don't think there has been an army since the dawn of time that has been free of touts. It's why the precedent of shooting them was not invented by the IRA.

    The IRA were not a legitimate Army, they were a gang of terrorists who murdered anyone whom they perceived as a threat eg. Jean McConville


  • #638
    Crooked Jack
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,678 ✭✭✭Crooked Jack


    delthedriver wrote: »
    The IRA were not a legitimate Army, they were a gang of terrorists who murdered anyone whom they perceived as a threat eg. Jean McConville

    Imagine that, armies killing people they perceive as threats. What next?


  • #639
    delthedriver
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,955 ✭✭✭delthedriver


    No
    Crooked Jack wrote: »
    Imagine that, armies killing people they perceive as threats. What next?

    You missed the point Jack, The IRA were not a recognised army, merely a bunch of terrorists. Sorry to burst your bubble!!:pac:


  • #640
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    delthedriver wrote: »
    The IRA were not a legitimate Army, they were a gang of terrorists who murdered anyone whom they perceived as a threat eg. Jean McConville

    More of the moral grandstanding by someone who has no solutions.

    Who cares if they didn't fill out the right forms in the UN? The IRA existed, did what they did and achieved what they achieved.
    How legitimate do you think Iraq's or Afghan's think the 'beloved and benevolent BA are when they are being bombed into accepting the gift of 'democracy'?


  • #641
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    delthedriver wrote: »
    You missed the point Jack, The IRA were not a recognised army, merely a bunch of terrorists. Sorry to burst your bubble!!:pac:


    "merely a bunch of terrorists" could describe everyone from the founders of the state to the South African Government.


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  • #642
    delthedriver
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,955 ✭✭✭delthedriver


    No
    Nodin wrote: »
    "merely a bunch of terrorists" could describe everyone from the founders of the state to the South African Government.

    Good Evening Noidin,

    Well did you catch the documentary on iplayer.? Had noted you did not see the programme last night.

    What else would you call them other than terrorists? They were not the official army of Irish Defence Forces , nor were they the official army of HM's forces. They had no political mandate from anyone, North or South

    So yes they were merely a bunch of evil murdering terrorists!


  • #643
    [-0-]
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,981 ✭✭✭[-0-]


    delthedriver wrote: »
    You missed the point Jack, The IRA were not a recognised army, merely a bunch of terrorists. Sorry to burst your bubble!!:pac:

    Why is the smaller army always the terrorists? You're sorely mistaken.

    Troll harder, friend.


  • #644
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    delthedriver wrote: »
    Good Evening Noidin,

    Well did you catch the documentary on iplayer.? Had noted you did not see the programme last night.

    What else would you call them other than terrorists? They were not the official army of Irish Defence Forces , nor were they the official army of HM's forces. They had no political mandate from anyone, North or South

    So yes they were merely a bunch of evil murdering terrorists!

    I didn't take issue so much with the description "terrorist" as with the high horse hyperbole you attached to it.


  • #645
    delthedriver
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,955 ✭✭✭delthedriver


    No
    [-0-] wrote: »
    Why is the smaller army always the terrorists? You're sorely mistaken.

    Troll harder, friend.

    So where did IRA terrorists get their political mandate, to be recognised as an army? What else can they be called except evil murdering terrorists?

    They were not representing the citizens of ROI, who had in place a Defence Force including an Official Army. Fact!


  • #646
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    delthedriver wrote: »
    So where did IRA terrorists get their political mandate, to be recognised as an army? What else can they be called except evil murdering terrorists?

    They were not representing the citizens of ROI, who had in place a Defence Force including an Official Army. Fact!


    You'll find that most revolutionary movements don't have a mandate.


  • #647
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    delthedriver wrote: »
    So where did IRA terrorists get their political mandate, to be recognised as an army? What else can they be called except evil murdering terrorists?

    They were not representing the citizens of ROI, who had in place a Defence Force including an Official Army. Fact!

    You are confusing army with Army. As well as a lot of other things.


  • #648
    .jacksparrow.
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,428 ✭✭✭.jacksparrow.


    delthedriver wrote: »
    So where did IRA terrorists get their political mandate, to be recognised as an army? What else can they be called except evil murdering terrorists?

    They were not representing the citizens of ROI, who had in place a Defence Force including an Official Army. Fact!

    There is too much wrong with this, where to start.

    The ROI might be a start.


  • #649
    delthedriver
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,955 ✭✭✭delthedriver


    No
    Nodin wrote: »
    I didn't take issue so much with the description "terrorist" as with the high horse hyperbole you attached to it.

    Why what other way could one describe them given the documentary highlighting the plight of Jean McConville last night, which you have not seen yet?


  • #650
    [-0-]
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,981 ✭✭✭[-0-]


    delthedriver wrote: »
    So where did IRA terrorists get their political mandate, to be recognised as an army? What else can they be called except evil murdering terrorists?

    They were not representing the citizens of ROI, who had in place a Defence Force including an Official Army. Fact!

    What official army was in place when Dan Breen, Ernie O'Malley and co, were kicking the crap out of the Brits?


  • #651
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    delthedriver wrote: »
    Why what other way could one describe them given the documentary highlighting the plight of Jean McConville last night, which you have not seen yet?


    ....they executed somebody they believed to be an informer. This is hardly an unknown practice in times of conflict.


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  • #652
    delthedriver
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,955 ✭✭✭delthedriver


    No
    .jacksparrow. wrote: »
    There is too much wrong with this, where to start.

    The ROI might be a start.

    What? You can't be serious.? Are you suggesting that the citizens of ROI supported IRA? You certainly live in a bubble.:pac:


  • #653
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    delthedriver wrote: »
    What? You can't be serious.? Are you suggesting that the citizens of ROI supported IRA? You certainly live in a bubble.:pac:


    Many of us did.


  • #654
    .jacksparrow.
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,428 ✭✭✭.jacksparrow.


    delthedriver wrote: »
    What? You can't be serious.? Are you suggesting that the citizens of ROI supported IRA? You certainly live in a bubble.:pac:

    The fact you're talking about a group fighting in a conflict zone that isn't even in the ROI kind of says all I need to know on your knowledge northern irelands troubled past.


  • #655
    delthedriver
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,955 ✭✭✭delthedriver


    No
    Nodin wrote: »
    ....they executed somebody they believed to be an informer. This is hardly an unknown practice in times of conflict.

    They got it wrong so!

    When you finally watch the documentary you will hear Nuala O'Loan confirm that Mrs. McConville was not an informer.

    Unless of course you know something else?


  • #656
    [-0-]
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,981 ✭✭✭[-0-]


    [-0-] wrote: »
    What official army was in place when Dan Breen, Ernie O'Malley and co, were kicking the crap out of the Brits?

    Any day now. Take your time to google who they are.


  • #657
    delthedriver
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,955 ✭✭✭delthedriver


    No
    Nodin wrote: »
    Many of us did.

    Nodin,

    I respect your honesty.

    Sincerely,

    :)


  • #658
    delthedriver
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,955 ✭✭✭delthedriver


    No
    [-0-] wrote: »
    Any day now. Take your time to google who they are.

    What has this got to do with the documentary and this thread.?


  • #659
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    delthedriver wrote: »
    Nodin,

    I respect your honesty.

    Sincerely,

    :)


    That was "many of us supported the IRA" not lived in a bubble.

    delthedriver wrote:
    They got it wrong so!

    When you finally watch the
    documentary you will hear Nuala O'Loan confirm that Mrs. McConville was not an
    informer.

    Unless of course you know something else?


    ....the war diary of the British regiment there at the time is still classified.


  • #660
    Gee Bag
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,541 ✭✭✭Gee Bag


    delthedriver wrote: »
    They got it wrong so!

    When you finally watch the documentary you will hear Nuala O'Loan confirm that Mrs. McConville was not an informer.

    Unless of course you know something else?

    Nuala O Loan was the police ombudsman. She had no access to British military or intelligence files or obviously enough to IRA personnel.

    Given this, I found her comments on the doc quite bizarre to say the least.


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  • #661
    [-0-]
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,981 ✭✭✭[-0-]


    delthedriver wrote: »
    What has this got to do with the documentary and this thread.?

    Haha, run along so. The answer is there was none. You can't view the people who won our independence as heroes and the provisional IRA as evil murdering scumbags. You need consistency. You need to view the lads who got our independence in the same light if you are to have any merit to your argument, and if you do view them in that light it simply means you do not understand what went on back then.

    I do. I've studied. I did not give a flying feck about the IRA until I studied the history.

    Whether you support(ed) the IRA or not, it's important to understand what they have done, why, and with what consequences - and to do so in terms of serious detailed explanation rather than simple stereotype BS.

    The Provisional IRA began primarily in response to a defensive need, to urgent danger. In face of the late-1960s crisis in the north of Ireland, so the provo argument goes, there was an overriding need for a defence force to protect vulnerable Catholic communities from sectarian attack. This has remianed a central part of the IRA's self-image throughout the troubles, and of wider republican perception of the organization. As late as 1997 leading Sinn Feiner, Francie Molloy, referred to the IRA as 'the defenders of our people for the last twenty-five years or thirty years'. In 1969, the oppressed communities required muscular defence, and the IRA provided it. Tied in with this in the IRA argument is a second point: the attacks of the late 1960s upon Catholic communities were part of longstanding unfair treatment of those people within a state that had been of its nature hostile to its Catholic inhabitants.

    If defence is the first cornerstone of the IRA argument, then the unfairness of the northern state is the second. Just as with much Catholic Irish experience within the pre-1922 United Kingdom, so too there was a problem with northern Catholic treatment and experience after partition. Gerry Adams: "In 1922, the six northeastern counties of Ireland were partitioned from the rest of the island by the British government, against the will of the Irish people and under threat of war. This partition resulted in the creation of a sectarian state in which nationalists have always been treated as second-class citizens".

    Systemic collective grievance provided the well from which Provisional republicanism was able to draw, and teh IRA relentlessly made their point that loyalty was impossible to a state built in such a way as to exclude them; and lack of allegiance to the state had brought unfair treatment, discrimination, exclusion.


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