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WINTER WEATHER 2013/2014 - See Mod Note First Post

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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 510 ✭✭✭dopolahpec


    I have to say, in terms of early winter weather, the model output suggests the potential for something interesting. I just looked at the archives for this time last year. That chunk of polar vortex that seemingly stayed in situ all winter was well established over Greenland by mid October 2012, Labrador. This year we see a very different picture with High Pressure running cleanly right up through Greenland toward the pole, with snow spreading westward across Russia now at a very significant pace too.

    I'd certainly say there's building blocks in place for a very early cold snap, and already such things have appeared briefly on the models, Northeasterly cold plunges and what not. Definitley interest for early winter snow and cold watchers this year I'd say.


  • Registered Users Posts: 515 ✭✭✭Kenring


    finnbob123 wrote: »
    hey, ken love your weather reports but I see your in the irish news a lot lately http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/a-white-december-but-no-snow-on-christmas-day-243168.html and also got an email from electric Ireland supposedly quoting you.
    Ah, mystery solved. I do remember that reporter and as you can see, I did not say a white December - that was her interpretation and her headline, not mine. It looks like Electric Ireland took something from her headline and used it to advertise.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,745 ✭✭✭whitebriar


    <SNIP>

    Regarding Winter,Dolan above has hit the nail on the head I think.The icy cold low pressure heading towards Norway,bodes well for an early snow should it continue to happen.,as Nov 2010 showed us anything is possible?


  • Registered Users Posts: 44 finnbob123


    <SNIP>
    has anyone an idea of how long the winter will last or will it be like last year cold until nearly may.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,466 ✭✭✭Lumi


    This thread is for discussing Winter 2013/2014 ONLY

    It is not for critiquing Ken Rings forecasts for August and September
    Off topic posts have been removed - stay on topic please!


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,745 ✭✭✭whitebriar


    finnbob123 wrote: »
    has anyone an idea of how long the winter will last or will it be like last year cold until nearly may.
    No one can tell you that No one.
    All people can do is extrapolate an opinion based on an interpretation of data from weather models,and sometimes other scientific research.
    <SNIP>

    Best advice to a question like that is to stick with the science of weather,read model analysis in forums like this one and others eg posts like dolan made above.
    Do that and you'll be in the round as reliably informed as is possible.


  • Registered Users Posts: 515 ✭✭✭Kenring


    whitebriar wrote: »
    All people can do is extrapolate an opinion based on an interpretation of data from weather models,and sometimes other scientific research.
    Do that and you'll be in the round as reliably informed as is possible.
    I agree wholeheartedly with Whitebriar, well described.
    My extrapolated opinion based on an the interpretation of data from weather models I use focuses on a benchmark for emerging from winter's colder temperatures as being country-wide double digits for overnight lows and when maxima reaches the mid-teens.
    <SNIP>


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,377 ✭✭✭✭M.T. Cranium


    Might rain a bit.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,101 ✭✭✭Weathering


    I'm finding the Weather really really boring of late. Nothing happening. Usually we've had a storm or 10 by now to keep us going until pst(potential snow terrority). Wake up Mother Nature u boring ..... :p


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,602 ✭✭✭jaffusmax


    Might rain a bit.

    This is how I like my weather forecasts, short and to the point!


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,218 ✭✭✭dexter647


    jaffusmax wrote: »
    This is how I like my weather forecasts, short and to the point!



  • Registered Users Posts: 23,874 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    Quiet atlantic storm season, good for easterly strength down the line?


  • Registered Users Posts: 845 ✭✭✭tylercollins


    A friend posted this picture on facebook this morning of swans arriving back to Eglinton today (Just outside city of culture)...

    A quick google search revealed this...

    "According to folklore, if the Bewick's Swans arrive early then we could be in for a cold winter, so it might be time to dig out your hats and scarves. Last year the swans arrived almost two weeks later, but in larger numbers, so we wondered if snow was on the cards—and it did indeed turn out to be the coldest winter for 31 years."

    1396006_10151647716575950_1221960171_n.jpg

    What's the truth in something like this?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,087 ✭✭✭Spring Onion


    A friend posted this picture on facebook this morning of swans arriving back to Eglinton today (Just outside city of culture)...

    A quick google search revealed this...

    "According to folklore, if the Bewick's Swans arrive early then we could be in for a cold winter, so it might be time to dig out your hats and scarves. Last year the swans arrived almost two weeks later, but in larger numbers, so we wondered if snow was on the cards—and it did indeed turn out to be the coldest winter for 31 years."

    What's the truth in something like this?


    Beauty is truth, truth beauty,that is all
    Ye know on earth, and all ye need to know.


  • Registered Users Posts: 845 ✭✭✭tylercollins


    Beauty is truth, truth beauty,that is all
    Ye know on earth, and all ye need to know.

    confused-meme.jpg


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,134 ✭✭✭✭maquiladora


    confused-meme.jpg

    Keats. Ode on a Grecian Urn.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,008 ✭✭✭icesnowfrost


    Can anyone explain blocking and is blocking a good set up for cold


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,233 ✭✭✭sdanseo


    Can anyone explain blocking and is blocking a good set up for cold

    Very basic explanation for the scenario we want - cold - is that a high pressure forms north of Europe and blocks out low pressure systems coming in from the Atlantic, which bring warmer air with them. Instead, we ideally get easterlies, which blow in lovely freezing air from Siberia and can result in a snowfest.


  • Registered Users Posts: 921 ✭✭✭MiNdGaM3


    I posted this on netweather a few days ago, I thought it might be appreciated here.

    I thought I'd try take a different approach to the CFS data, to look at the trends for blocking in the North Atlantic this Winter.

    I chose to focus on the area within the green box below, stretching from eastern Scandinavia to Western Greenland, and bound by Svalbard and Iceland for the north and south edges.

    onRQmG2.png

    So I started a spread sheet and for the 12z CFS each day, I looked at the predicted monthly sea level pressure anomalies within the general area of the box and ranked it based on 11 categories, going from exceptional blocking (ranked as a 5), to neutral (ranked as a 0) down to exceptionally low pressure (ranked as a -5). The method a bit subjective, but should be ok for trends.
    Below is an example of a +5 (most blocked), a 0 (neutral) and a -3 (strong low anomaly, the lowest I've come across, none have warranted a -5 so far!)

    +5
    cfsnh-4-1-2014.png

    0
    cfsnh-4-2-2014.png

    -3
    cfsnh-4-4-2014.png

    In situations where there is both a strong +ve and -ve anomaly within the box, they cancel eachother out, giving a 0 overall.

    With the data gathered, I then was able to get some averages and trends.

    Below are the predictions for November since September 22nd using the 11 categories mentioned above, with the daily data in blue, the 5 day mean in red and the trend in black.

    8h6v31G.jpg

    November has averaged +1.4 since September 22nd, so in the weak +ve pressure anomaly. It was doing quite well until recent days, when the CFS began consistently showing low pressure to our north.
    Since October 22nd, 17% of the 12z CFS runs have shown -ve pressure anomalies to the north, 9% have been neutral with the remaining 74% showing +ve pressure anomalies, so still quite good.

    I will be updating it daily, and can post an update here every now and then. I'm doing the same for all months up to April, so if anyone wants the trends for the other months just ask!


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,602 ✭✭✭jaffusmax


    What does Dec look like according to you method?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 921 ✭✭✭MiNdGaM3


    jaffusmax wrote: »
    What does Dec look like according to you method?

    XHHRK5P.jpg

    Looking better than November so far. It's averaged 2.2, so moderate +ve pressure anomalies to the north. Just 4% of the runs have shown low pressure to the north, 9% neutral, and 87% show +ve pressure anomalies.


  • Registered Users Posts: 95 ✭✭jonnyj


    I saw a snow plough on the M50 about an hour ago, heading south bound from the finglas exit. I suspect its going down to the depot near the toll.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,087 ✭✭✭Spring Onion


    MiNdGaM3 wrote: »
    XHHRK5P.jpg

    Looking better than November so far. It's averaged 2.2, so moderate +ve pressure anomalies to the north. Just 4% of the runs have shown low pressure to the north, 9% neutral, and 87% show +ve pressure anomalies.


    For us non-techies, does that mean lots of cold?


  • Registered Users Posts: 921 ✭✭✭MiNdGaM3


    For us non-techies, does that mean lots of cold?

    It's just a measure of whether the CFS is predicting higher or lower pressure to our north.
    Air tends to circulate clockwise around high pressure, so when high pressure is just to our north the likelihood of easterly winds increases, which can bring cold polar/continental air over Ireland.

    While the strength and positioning of the high pressure can causes differences in the weather that we experience here, in general, a trend towards high pressure to our north is a good thing for cold winter weather, and that's what the CFS has been showing.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,907 ✭✭✭power pants


    are we getting snow soon?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,186 ✭✭✭Kippure


    are we getting snow soon?

    Not soon enough...:D


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 16,753 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gonzo


    have a strange feeling this could be another very mild autumn and early winter with only proper cold after Christmas with spells of cold air from time to time right up to end of April, beginning to May 2014.


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,377 ✭✭✭✭M.T. Cranium


    This is my winter 2013-14 forecast for Ireland and the U.K., adapted here for Irish readers (you can see my U.K. version on Net-weather today).

    The following forecast is based on the latest upgrade of my research model which attempts to discover and catalogue signals of natural variability on a wide variety of time scales.

    In general terms, the winter forecast for the UK and Ireland is for milder than average conditions about two-thirds of the time, and colder than average about one-third of the time, in the main winter months of December, January and February. I could add that both November and March show similar outcomes in the research model output so whatever your preference for a winter season, this should apply, mild spells will tend to outnumber cold spells.

    December looks particularly mild as well as early November, and mid to late February. January shows the greatest parity of mild and cold spells and may end up closer to long-term normal values. My IMT predictions with CET predictions in brackets for the various months at this early stage are

    NOV 7.5 (7.2) -- about 1-2 above normal
    DEC 6.3 (6.1) -- about 1-2 above normal
    JAN 4.5 (3.8) -- close to normal or slightly below
    FEB 5.2 (4.5) -- close to normal
    MAR 6.3 (6.0) -- close to normal

    Although I have mentioned mild as the dominant theme, the fact that January sees more equal chances of mild and cold may rescue the winter from the category of very mild and snow-free "modern winter" that often dominated in the period 1988 to 2007, and perhaps this will be more of an "average" winter as a result, so my estimation of wintry disruption potential is something like moderate or about five to ten days in total for most regions (of the UK and eastern Ireland, probably three to seven on average in western Ireland).

    I'm expecting some rather lengthy intervals of very mild southwest flow and occasional heavy rainfalls and strong winds during parts of early November, much of December, late January and possibly into part of February although here I expect any mild spells to be more caused by southerly flow associated with European blocking. March by contrast may be dominated more by cold zonal flow patterns.

    When it might turn colder (notably parts of mid to late November, and then first half of January) there could be some briefly severe winter conditions and a large-scale reversal of the dominant circulation to high-latitude blocking and northeast winds so that as usual sea-effect snow could provide most of the snowfall potential with perhaps one or two cyclonic storm events in a southerly jet position. My research output is not very encouraging on severity and some of this colder weather may be of the 2006 variety, cold and dry.

    Given the overall set-up around the hemisphere, I am also going for a rather cold winter in eastern and central North America, and mild in far eastern Canada and on the west coast of North America inland to about the central plains and prairies. The preferred escape route for arctic air this winter will likely be western Hudson Bay to Great Lakes towards the southeast U.S. states. Note that this pattern places ridges near 110 W and 55 W which if you do the math places the next downstream ridge close to the Greenwich (0W) meridian. That would suggest a Bartlett or Euro-high pattern but with such an active jet stream expected it's more likely to become a fast stormy (SW) flow, so I have added the detail that at least one major windstorm is probable this winter. As readers of my forecasts know, I tend to favour northern maximum around full moon in Dec (16-17) and Jan (15-16) for wind storm potential with new moon a secondary peak. However, the new moon of 1 January is well timed to coincide with a circulation change and so that could turn out to be the stage for the strongest windstorm potential. The following new moon event on 30-31 Jan is also well timed from the trend in the model output.

    Meanwhile the chances of a white Christmas seem rather low from this perspective, with a peak in temperatures right on the 25th in the research output, in fact Christmas Day is indicated as having the best chance of all dates this winter to set a record high temperature which would be 14 to 17 C in most regions. Not saying it will necessarily be that mild but above 12 would not surprise me at all given the strength of this mild signal (which then fades away rapidly by New Years).

    The coldest days of the winter are indicated to be around 10-14 January which in context of an otherwise rather mild winter brings up an analogue with Jan 1987. It may then turn out to be a case of a bland winter with one very notable cold spell which will some in from the ledge anyway.

    I should conclude by noting that the range of uncertainty in these seasonal forecasts is rather large and so these percentages indicate the assessed chances of the winter ending up in each of the 20% groupings based on all past cases:

    MILDEST 20% (very mild) ... chance for 2013-14 is 26%
    NEXT MILDEST 20% (mild) ... chance for 2013-14 is 33%
    NEAR AVERAGE 20% ... chance for 2013-14 is 25%
    COLDER 20% (cool) ... chance for 2013-14 is 13%
    COLDEST 20% (very cold) ... chance for 2013-14 is 3%

    The median probability places this winter around 34th mildest out of 100 cases.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,992 ✭✭✭Cosmo Kramer


    Thanks MTC, even though it's basically the forecast from hell. Five long months of wet and windy Atlantic muck coming up then - I suppose you've got to endure the bad ones to enjoy the good ones...


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  • Registered Users Posts: 14,247 ✭✭✭✭leahyl


    Any chance MT might be completely wrong and it ends up being The Big Freeze again?! :D


This discussion has been closed.
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