Just what is good course management?

GreeBo · 02-10-2013 9:32pm #1

m r c wrote: »

I get the par 4's and 5's but would you ever recommend not going for gir on par 3's?
Surely unless it's a 200yd plus dog you'd always be trying to knock it on?

first hole in my course is a par 3, 180m off the back and I dont for it (index 7)
I have almost as many 3s this way, *far* less twos, but also *far, far* less 5's and greater.

I'll get my birdies somewhere else.

Redzah · 02-10-2013 9:47pm

GreeBo wrote: »

first hole in my course is a par 3, 180m off the back and I dont for it (index 7)
I have almost as many 3s this way, *far* less twos, but also *far, far* less 5's and greater.

I'll get my birdies somewhere else.

Might be a bit better to give more info GreeBo, where's the danger and why don't you go for it asides from the index 7 point?

There's a par 3 in my former home course straight down hill to a green surrounded by water left right and behind, plays 195 off the backs and quite frankly it is not a fair hole (would be much better from 145ish).

The majority of the low men hit 10 yards short and take their chances on getting up and down (index doesn't come into it in this case). The shot selection of the mid/high guys is more varied.

Ilik Urgee · 02-10-2013 10:15pm

GreeBo wrote: »

first hole in my course is a par 3, 180m off the back and I dont for it (index 7)
I have almost as many 3s this way, *far* less twos, but also *far, far* less 5's and greater.

I'll get my birdies somewhere else.

What? Wedge wedge 2 putts happy days.:eek:

Seriously, what if that par 3 was all over water?

GreeBo · 02-10-2013 10:21pm

Redzah wrote: »

Might be a bit better to give more info GreeBo, where's the danger and why don't you go for it asides from the index 7 point?

There's a par 3 in my former home course straight down hill to a green surrounded by water left right and behind, plays 195 off the backs and quite frankly it is not a fair hole (would be much better from 145ish).

The majority of the low men hit 10 yards short and take their chances on getting up and down (index doesn't come into it in this case). The shot selection of the mid/high guys is more varied.

its 180M min uphill for a start. Thats a perfect 3iron or a rescue to the back for me.
RHS is OOB from the tee all the way to the green.
Over the green is a forest.
Green high along the LHS is a 10M sheer drop to rough. a ball running down the face is lost of ivy, a river runs the length of the hole about 20M left.
So to take enough club to get onto the green (and avoid the 4 pot bunkers) I'm bringing in OOB for a fade and a wet or lost ball or at best a very hard pitch for a draw.
I hit s 6 iron shot of all the bunkers, leaves me a 30-50M pitch and I get up and down about 50% of the time.

Every week I watch lads hit 3woods & drivers and walk off with 7s and 8s.

GreeBo · 02-10-2013 10:24pm

Ilik Urgee wrote: »

What? Wedge wedge 2 putts happy days.:eek:

Seriously, what if that par 3 was all over water?

No, 6 iron shot, a pitch shot that I have a specific swing for and 1 putt 50% of the time.

Then it would be a terribly designed hole tbh and unplayable for 90% of golfers.

m r c · 02-10-2013 10:33pm

GreeBo wrote: »

its 180M min uphill for a start. Thats a perfect 3iron or a rescue to the back for me.
RHS is OOB from the tee all the way to the green.
Over the green is a forest.
Green high along the LHS is a 10M sheer drop to rough. a ball running down the face is lost of ivy, a river runs the length of the hole about 20M left.
So to take enough club to get onto the green (and avoid the 4 pot bunkers) I'm bringing in OOB for a fade and a wet or lost ball or at best a very hard pitch for a draw.
I hit s 6 iron shot of all the bunkers, leaves me a 30-50M pitch and I get up and down about 50% of the time.

Every week I watch lads hit 3woods & drivers and walk off with 7s and 8s.

Honestly your plan sounds about right here greebo, I know in the past I'd have been one of the fellas with the 7-8 in all honesty

Ilik Urgee · 02-10-2013 10:39pm

GreeBo wrote: »

No, 6 iron shot, a pitch shot that I have a specific swing for and 1 putt 50% of the time.

Then it would be a terribly designed hole tbh and unplayable for 90% of golfers.

Don't play Killeen in Killlarney any time soon. It's all over water off the back.183m to the green.Par 3 3rd.

here

GreeBo · 02-10-2013 11:01pm

Ilik Urgee wrote: »

Don't play Killeen in Killlarney any time soon. It's all over water off the back.183m to the green.Par 3 3rd.

here

Sorry but no it isnt.
From the back tees its at most 150m to get to land.
You dont have to get to the green with your tee shot, you just need to get somewhere safe...thats the point of laying up.

Ilik Urgee · 02-10-2013 11:07pm

GreeBo wrote: »

Sorry but no it isnt.
From the back tees its at most 150m to get to land.
You dont have to get to the green with your tee shot, you just need to get somewhere safe...thats the point of laying up.

I could never play that hole like that. The percentages on that hole for me are 50 50 as to whether I hit the green or lay up left(success-wise). So it's 5 wood all day and go for the green.

GreeBo · 02-10-2013 11:12pm

Ilik Urgee wrote: »

I could never play that hole like that. The percentages on that hole for me are 50 50 as to whether I hit the green or lay up left(success-wise). So it's 5 wood all day and go for the green.

percentages for what though?
if its 50% par and 50% disaster then Id say you are dead wrong to go for it.
If its 50% birdies and 50% disaster then Id say you are dead wrong to go for it.
If its 50% birdies and 50% pars then Id say you are dead right.
If its 50% pars/birides and 50% bogeys id say you are dead right.

My money is on 1 or 2 being reality....?

Ilik Urgee · 02-10-2013 11:17pm

GreeBo wrote: »

percentages for what though?
if its 50% par and 50% disaster then Id say you are dead wrong to go for it.
If its 50% birdies and 50% disaster then Id say you are dead wrong to go for it.
If its 50% birdies and 50% pars then Id say you are dead right.
If its 50% pars/birides and 50% bogeys id say you are dead right.

My money is on 1 or 2 being reality....?

Hand over the moola, I've parred it both times.
But if it's all over land then mid iron,on in 2 and 2 putt is a banker. The par 3 9th in my club measures 215 off the whites and I'll always play a 5 iron short as there's no payoff in taking it on.
Anyway we digress!!

Only tip I try to keep in my head as a high handicapper is three on two putt, four on 2 putt and so on. Always take your punishment or take the higher percentage shot if in doubt.

GreeBo · 02-10-2013 11:39pm

Ilik Urgee wrote: »

Hand over the moola, I've parred it both times.
But if it's all over land then mid iron,on in 2 and 2 putt is a banker. The par 3 9th in my club measures 215 off the whites and I'll always play a 5 iron short as there's no payoff in taking it on.
Anyway we digress!!

Only tip I try to keep in my head as a high handicapper is three on two putt, four on 2 putt and so on. Always take your punishment or take the higher percentage shot if in doubt.

Ok so your sample size for deciding to go for it is 2....
See my earlier post about what you need to do before figuring out if a plan is working or not.

Ilik Urgee · 02-10-2013 11:48pm

GreeBo wrote: »

Ok so your sample size for deciding to go for it is 2....
See my earlier post about what you need to do before figuring out if a plan is working or not.

So facts count for nothing.
I've read it all now.

GreeBo · 02-10-2013 11:52pm

Ilik Urgee wrote: »

So facts count for nothing.
I've read it all now.

Clearly you havent read very much on statistics if you think a sample size of 2 can be used to draw conclusions from!

Bottom line,if you are making changes to your course management you have to follow them through, everytime, not matter how you are playing and only then can you draw conclusions. At least 10 rounds, probably more to allow for outliers (really bad days at the office)

alxmorgan · 03-10-2013 2:27pm

GreeBo wrote: »

Assuming you have lots of shots, if hitting a 3w off the tee means you are now struggling with a long iron to the green, then dont hit the 3W, hit a 5iron and then a 7i and then your wedge.
If you cant comfortably make it in 2 there is no point in adding risk to the drive by hitting a 3w.

Obviously there is a balance to all of this, but you wont find your own balance unless you try the options.

I have to say Greebo that I would love to have your mental fortitude. What you say makes perfect sense but its just so hard for the average punter to do.

Can I ask if you were ever a grip and rip it kind of guy ?
And if so what changed you ?

I know why its so hard for people to change...they just want to let the big dog eat

...but the question is would playing the game your way affect their enjoyment ? I guess they won't know till they try.

GreeBo · 03-10-2013 2:35pm

alxmorgan wrote: »

I have to say Greebo that I would love to have your mental fortitude. What you say makes perfect sense but its just so hard for the average punter to do.

Can I ask if you were ever a grip and rip it kind of guy ?
And if so what changed you ?

I know why its so hard for people to change...they just want to let the big dog eat ...but the question is would playing the game your way affect their enjoyment ? I guess they won't know till they try.

I do grip it and rip it...its much easier to rip it when you are confident that you are hitting the right club and arent trying to steer it down the fairway.
Id say 90% of the time my rescue is no more than 20 yards behind where an average driver would be, because I swing confidently at it and nail it.

I used to just play based on the yardage, if Im far away then hit whatever club is supposed to go that distance...I did that for years and got nowhere handicap wise. Sure I had some scores, but long term my handicap wasnt improving and it was frustrating to hit great shots and not score.

I dunno about you guys but a great drive with a sh1tty score at the end doesnt give me more enjoyment than a nice run of solid pars...especially at the end of the day when adding up the card.
Its sad and twee, but there are no descriptions on the score card...

Nicklaus had a saying that he would always make sure to not beat himself...if someone else played well and won, fair play to them, but dont ever beat yourself out there. This is basically my interpretation of that.

(my mother game similar advice, but I dont think she was talking about golf! :eek:)

alxmorgan · 03-10-2013 3:23pm

GreeBo wrote: »

I do grip it and rip it...its much easier to rip it when you are confident that you are hitting the right club and arent trying to steer it down the fairway.
Id say 90% of the time my rescue is no more than 20 yards behind where an average driver would be, because I swing confidently at it and nail it.

I used to just play based on the yardage, if Im far away then hit whatever club is supposed to go that distance...I did that for years and got nowhere handicap wise. Sure I had some scores, but long term my handicap wasnt improving and it was frustrating to hit great shots and not score.

I dunno about you guys but a great drive with a sh1tty score at the end doesnt give me more enjoyment than a nice run of solid pars...especially at the end of the day when adding up the card.
Its sad and twee, but there are no descriptions on the score card...

Nicklaus had a saying that he would always make sure to not beat himself...if someone else played well and won, fair play to them, but dont ever beat yourself out there. This is basically my interpretation of that.

(my mother game similar advice, but I dont think she was talking about golf! :eek:)

May seem like a silly question but in general what is your approach to holes where you have shots/do not have them ?

I know this depends on the hole but all other things being equal is it play conservative where you have a shot and slightly more aggressive where you don't ?

GreeBo · 03-10-2013 5:12pm

alxmorgan wrote: »

May seem like a silly question but in general what is your approach to holes where you have shots/do not have them ?

I know this depends on the hole but all other things being equal is it play conservative where you have a shot and slightly more aggressive where you don't ?

At "my level" I dont really pay too much attention to the index on my own course in medal play. Im playing for a par on every hole. It might not be a 2 putt par but thats because of my experience on the hole rather than the index of it.

Actually to be honest I dont look at the index at all unless Im playing stableford, and even then only when Im near the green or something has gone wrong with my plan for the hole.

On a new course the plan gets figured out based on the hole map on the tee, or if its something important, during practice rounds/online.

Redzah · 04-10-2013 7:35pm

I must say that I would def distinguish between good course management and hitting a 6 iron off a tee. Very few par 4s/5s are designed like this and just hit a shot and club which gives u the best chance of scoring at a hole, this is rarely a 6 iron on a par 4/5 in my opinion, it could be a 3 wood or 3 iron as opposed to a driver but will rarely be a 6 iron. By hitting a 6 iron you will quite often make the hole a 3 shot hole on a par 4, this means you are under pressure as a high handicap to hit 3 good shots (as opposed to 2 with say a 3 wood). Play the holes as they are designed I.e if the fairway narrows the further you go then with a driver then hit a shorter club to the wider part,
Most holes in these circumstances will be designed that it will be a 3 wood/3 iron to this part (210 - 245) and not a 6 iron. Also, by adopting this suggested approach of uber safe then it halts progression IMO.

GreeBo · 04-10-2013 7:41pm

Redzah wrote: »

I must say that I would def distinguish between good course management and hitting a 6 iron off a tee. Very few par 4s/5s are designed like this and just hit a shot and club which gives u the best chance of scoring at a hole, this is rarely a 6 iron on a par 4/5 in my opinion, it could be a 3 wood or 3 iron as opposed to a driver but will rarely be a 6 iron. By hitting a 6 iron you will quite often make the hole a 3 shot hole on a par 4, this means you are under pressure as a high handicap to hit 3 good shots (as opposed to 2 with say a 3 wood). Play the holes as they are designed I.e if the fairway narrows the further you go then with a driver then hit a shorter club to the wider part,
Most holes in these circumstances will be designed that it will be a 3 wood/3 iron to this part (210 - 245) and not a 6 iron. Also, by adopting this suggested approach of uber safe then it halts progression IMO.

Do you not think that ignores the fact that a high handicap is going to make a balls of more 3w's than 6irons?
Im not saying you have to hit a 6i, but if you cant reliably find the fairway with anything else, why would you hit something else.
By definition a higher handicap golfer is worse than average, so they either cant find a fairway, cant hit a fairway shot, or cant get up and down to save themselves.

Why would you have 2 shots on a hole and still play it like a scratch golfer? That assume the person is a high handicap purely because of short game imo.

Worry about progression when you can reliably play to your current handicap!

Redzah · 04-10-2013 8:11pm

GreeBo wrote: »

Do you not think that ignores the fact that a high handicap is going to make a balls of more 3w's than 6irons?
Im not saying you have to hit a 6i, but if you cant reliably find the fairway with anything else, why would you hit something else.
By definition a higher handicap golfer is worse than average, so they either cant find a fairway, cant hit a fairway shot, or cant get up and down to save themselves.

Why would you have 2 shots on a hole and still play it like a scratch golfer? That assume the person is a high handicap purely because of short game imo.

Worry about progression when you can reliably play to your current handicap!

Yes they may well make a balls of more 3 woods than 6 irons but there is a trade off as they would be hitting one less shot if they tried to play the hole as it was designed;

I.e. say I they hit a six iron well 60 % of the time, a 3 wood well 45% of the time, an 8 iron well 70% of the time and a 30 yard wedge well 80% of the time then the odds of playing a given par 4 well under the 2 scenarios are as follows;

1. 6 iron(60%), 6 iron(60%), wedge (80%) = 28.8%
2. 3 wood (45%), 8 iron (70%) = 31.5%

I'm just trying to distinguish between good course management and über safety which can be counter productive in my opinion, there is a balance and in my opinion some of the safety suggestions have tilted the scales too much on the safety side

GreeBo · 04-10-2013 8:29pm

Redzah wrote: »

Yes they may well make a balls of more 3 woods than 6 irons but there is a trade off as they would be hitting one less shot if they tried to play the hole as it was designed;

I.e. say I they hit a six iron well 60 % of the time, a 3 wood well 45% of the time, an 8 iron well 70% of the time and a 30 yard wedge well 80% of the time then the odds of playing a given par 4 well under the 2 scenarios are as follows;

1. 6 iron(60%), 6 iron(60%), wedge (80%) = 28.8%
2. 3 wood (45%), 8 iron (70%) = 31.5%

I'm just trying to distinguish between good course management and über safety which can be counter productive in my opinion, there is a balance and in my opinion some of the safety suggestions have tilted the scales too much on the safety side

/edit to say
they would be *attempting* less shots, I dont think they would be hitting less shots, otherwise the strategy makes no sense
I agree that its a balance, like I said earlier each player has to find their own balance based on their abilities and experience.

I would say though that your maths doesnt take into account that its far more likely that you can still play a shot after a bad 6i than a bad 3w.
If you are saying the percentages are taking into account the result being playable then I would say your numbers are way off, for a high handicap golfer.

Would you not agree that the first step to lowering your handicap is to determine how you can play to it? There are 18 holes, you dont (and shouldnt) try to play them all as they were designed if you are off 24.

Finally,a high handicap isnt going to have the same type of misses that you would have with a 3w or long iron.

PhlegmyMoses · 04-10-2013 8:36pm

GreeBo wrote: »

Do you not think that ignores the fact that a high handicap is going to make a balls of more 3w's than 6irons?
Im not saying you have to hit a 6i, but if you cant reliably find the fairway with anything else, why would you hit something else.
By definition a higher handicap golfer is worse than average, so they either cant find a fairway, cant hit a fairway shot, or cant get up and down to save themselves.

Why would you have 2 shots on a hole and still play it like a scratch golfer? That assume the person is a high handicap purely because of short game imo.

Worry about progression when you can reliably play to your current handicap!

Part of the problem is that a high handicapper can't confidently hit any club at times. There are times when it doesn't matter what club they have in their hands, 7 iron or 3 wood, they are going to duff it 15 yards.

If they've taken a 6 iron off the tee to 160 yards on a 380 yard par 4 and they duff the next 6 iron a few yards, they're now struggling for distance. Their next shot must be excellent and they have to get up and down in the next two. Also consider that even someone off 23 only has 2 shots on 5 holes so the likelihood is that they play to 5 for bogey golf on a par 4.

Also, the high handicapper's bad shot is often an absolute blow up of a hook or a slice . My home course's par 4s punish any shot that is not straight so it wouldnt matter whether I had a 7 iron or 5 wood in my hand for that shot, I'd be taking a drop or knocking sideways out of huge trees after one of those.

I would actually apply your idea for course management to the Par 5s on my course. None of them are low index. I can hit a big club off the tee on most of them and as long as it's not a snap hook or slice, I shouldn't be in huge trouble. I then have 5 shots from there to get 2 points. A couple of 7 irons, that's my 150 club as long as it's not blowing a gale, can get me on or near the green on all of them. Then it's a pitch on and a putt or two for a decent score. It even allows me to scuttle a shot 15 yards without being under too much pressure.

Basically, I've got my best scores so far doing a combination of what you advocate and also just going for it on other holes.

I think the better advice for us high handicappers is practice. I can guarantee that all of the lower guys here hit golf balls at least 3 times a week and more when they get a chance. There's no coincidence that these are the guys that go low each week.

Redzah · 04-10-2013 8:36pm

GreeBo wrote: »

I agree that its a balance, like I said earlier each player has to find their own balance based on their abilities and experience.

I would say though that your maths doesnt take into account that its far more likely that you can still play a shot after a bad 6i than a bad 3w.
If you are saying the percentages are taking into account the result being playable then I would say your numbers are way off, for a high handicap golfer.

Would you not agree that the first step to lowering your handicap is to determine how you can play to it? There are 18 holes, you dont (and shouldnt) try to play them all as they were designed if you are off 24.

Finally,a high handicap isnt going to have the same type of misses that you would have with a 3w or long iron.

Ya I'd agree with plenty of the above and the figures were really plucked for illustrative purposes so certainly wouldn't advocate them as an exact science. What I would really try say to a high handicap is practice hard a safe shot on the range, one that you could ideally hit at least close to 200 yards. This should will be invaluable. For me it's a 3 iron back in the stance that goes about 220, obviously I'm not advocating this as an easy shot but find one that you hit well more often than not as an alternative to a direct driver or 3 wood

GreeBo · 04-10-2013 8:52pm

Redzah wrote: »

Ya I'd agree with plenty of the above and the figures were really plucked for illustrative purposes so certainly wouldn't advocate them as an exact science. What I would really try say to a high handicap is practice hard a safe shot on the range, one that you could ideally hit at least close to 200 yards. This should will be invaluable. For me it's a 3 iron back in the stance that goes about 220, obviously I'm not advocating this as an easy shot but find one that you hit well more often than not as an alternative to a direct driver or 3 wood

but if you can hit close to 200 yards everytime then you probably arent a 24 handicap golfer!

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

Part of the problem is that a high handicapper can't confidently hit any club at times. There are times when it doesn't matter what club they have in their hands, 7 iron or 3 wood, they are going to duff it 15 yards.

If they've taken a 6 iron off the tee to 160 yards on a 380 yard par 4 and they duff the next 6 iron a few yards, they're now struggling for distance. Their next shot must be excellent and they have to get up and down in the next two. Also consider that even someone off 23 only has 2 shots on 5 holes so the likelihood is that they play to 5 for bogey golf on a par 4.

Also, the high handicapper's bad shot is often an absolute blow up of a hook or a slice . My home course's par 4s punish any shot that is not straight so it wouldnt matter whether I had a 7 iron or 5 wood in my hand for that shot, I'd be taking a drop or knocking sideways out of huge trees after one of those.

I would actually apply your idea for course management to the Par 5s on my course. None of them are low index. I can hit a big club off the tee on most of them and as long as it's not a snap hook or slice, I shouldn't be in huge trouble. I then have 5 shots from there to get 2 points. A couple of 7 irons, that's my 150 club as long as it's not blowing a gale, can get me on or near the green on all of them. Then it's a pitch on and a putt or two for a decent score. It even allows me to scuttle a shot 15 yards without being under too much pressure.

Basically, I've got my best scores so far doing a combination of what you advocate and also just going for it on other holes.

I think the better advice for us high handicappers is practice. I can guarantee that all of the lower guys here hit golf balls at least 3 times a week and more when they get a chance. There's no coincidence that these are the guys that go low each week.

You cant expect to be duffing shots and still getting 2 points and playing to your handicap though, not to go back there, but you are only supposed to play to your handicap on your better than average days.

If you can scuttle a shot and still not be under pressure your handicap is too high, you have shots in the bag that you shouldnt have.

Its definitely a combination, but you cant determine that (imo at least) without building a plan to play to your handicap and analysing the results.

GreeBo · 04-10-2013 8:56pm

Branching out into its own thread...

Almaviva · 04-10-2013 9:03pm

Maintaining an overall standard of course that golfers perceve as good value from money. It encompasses every thing from playability year round, to the core elements of greens consistency and speed, teeing grounds level and neat, bunkers well filled with good quality sand and farways with good quality grass, to the peripheral elements of general neatness, leaves removal, edges of bunkers trimmed and out of bounds and markers clearly designated.
In a deeper sense, doing all that with an efficient expenditure on machinery and materials and good greenstaff management.

PARlance · 04-10-2013 9:07pm

GreeBo wrote: »

Branching out into its own thread...

You're learning

I'd be interested to know your opinions, I'd say you're a 12 drivers per round man

I like your theory for high HC's but think its a bit extreme, but in general most high HC'ers could do with taking a lot of it on board. The major problem i have with your theory is that it avoids people facing their problem areas.

Your theory promotes a slow and steady progression, I favour short term pain (with addressing "previous" problem areas such as my driver) for "hopefully" greater improvement in the medium-long term

GreeBo · 04-10-2013 9:07pm

Almaviva wrote: »

Maintaining an overall standard of course that golfers perceve as good value from money. It encompasses every thing from playability year round, to the core elements of greens consistency and speed, teeing grounds level and neat, bunkers well filled with good quality sand and farways with good quality grass, to the peripheral elements of general neatness, leaves removal, edges of bunkers trimmed and out of bounds and markers clearly designated.
In a deeper sense, doing all that with an efficient expenditure on machinery and materials and good greenstaff management.

lol, for a minute there I had no idea what had just happened!

This is for player based course management...good idea for a thread though!
Let me know and I can zap your post (or move to a new thread?)

Ben1977 · 04-10-2013 9:08pm

My opinion of course management is

1 - Selecting the right club at the right time.
2 - Aiming at the largest/widest landing zone off the tee. It may be infront of bunkers or hazards, equally it could be passed them.
3 - Not trying the hero shot, eg 250 carry over water
4 - Knowing when to use driver and when not to
5 - Aiming for the fat of the green, in some cases actually aiming short, left or right to insure you avoid the trouble.
6 - Last thing is knowing your own game and limitations.

PARlance · 04-10-2013 9:11pm

GreeBo wrote: »

lol, for a minute there I had no idea what had just happened!

This is for player based course management...good idea for a thread though!
Let me know and I can zap your post (or move to a new thread?)

Almaviva taking an opportunity to have a laugh... Well I never.

Just what *is* good course management?

Comments

Just what is good course management?