Just what *is* good course management?

uberwolf

tried the Greebo method in the medal yesterday. 192 yard to the centre par 3. Water from 90 yards out through the green up the right. Trees blocking left.

My playing partner off the same handicap took on the green and hit a stunning tee shot up and pretty much pin high. I think it was a 3 hybrid. I had decided long before I reached the green that a sold 6 iron to what passes for a landing area was my play. Struck it very well, 15 yards short. Aggresive wedge that didn't hold up for me, just wandered the par putt past from about 15ft and tapped in my bogey. My playing partner walked off with the same score.

Don't ask about the rest of the round :mad:

GreeBo

^ is it too late to start talking royalties?

Almaviva

GreeBo wrote: »

^ is it too late to start talking royalties?

^ no problem as long as you pay him compensation for the other 17 holes.

Russman

All these pages about one par 3 hole ?? WTF !! :D

Ahh no, seriously though, the 1st in the Grange is IMO a particularly difficult opening hole, with the potential for being a real train wreck. Off the back its almost a par 3.5
It was even harder of the old tee years ago !

Obviously depending on your ability, laying up into the wide area short can make perfect sense but the real question is whether people could deal with the "pride" issue. GreeBo's strategy is undoubtedly the best if you want to rule out your round effectively being over after one hole - ok you won't make a birdie and there's a good chance of not making a par, but you probably won't take 5 or 6 either and there's other birdie holes to come during the rest of the round. Also strokes, stableford & matchplay will have different strategies.

I'd say if a survey was done, most people miss that green and have various types of bunker shot, chip shot, punch out from under branches etc to leave a fairly long putt for par - yet with the layup strategy the pitch can be more precise and you're probably closer in two than most people who go for the green AND you've played to your plan and haven't got stressed.

However the vast majority of club golfers simply couldn't lay up on a par 3 no matter what. Not sure I could even if I should.

I think course management is basically hitting the shot you "can" hit rather than hitting the shot you "want" to hit or think you should hit. Much easier said than done.

Interesting Greebo that you see the 5th as a driver hole, I'm not a member but I've played Grange buckets of times and I just don't see it on that hole. Each to their own !

Horrid Henry

If you're a reasonably long hitter, driver's a good play on the 5th in Grange. Once you know you're getting over the trees, you're in good shape.

GreeBo

Horrid Henry wrote: »

If you're a reasonably long hitter, driver's a good play on the 5th in Grange. Once you know you're getting over the trees, you're in good shape.

Yep, right up until the new trees grow up

m r c

This thread has cost me a round in grange, there is an open comp as per their site for this Thursday. Will there be any more this year? When will they finish for the winter greebo?

GreeBo

m r c wrote: »

This thread has cost me a round in grange, there is an open comp as per their site for this Thursday. Will there be any more this year? When will they finish for the winter greebo?

lol

yeah Im sure there will be a few, greens should be just coming back by thursday if we get a bit more rain.
You should go back and stand at the blue markers when you play the first....and then look back another 30 feet to where the original tee was!

harpsman

GreeBo wrote: »

its 180M min uphill for a start. Thats a perfect 3iron or a rescue to the back for me.
RHS is OOB from the tee all the way to the green.
Over the green is a forest.
Green high along the LHS is a 10M sheer drop to rough. a ball running down the face is lost of ivy, a river runs the length of the hole about 20M left.
So to take enough club to get onto the green (and avoid the 4 pot bunkers) I'm bringing in OOB for a fade and a wet or lost ball or at best a very hard pitch for a draw.
I hit s 6 iron shot of all the bunkers, leaves me a 30-50M pitch and I get up and down about 50% of the time.

Every week I watch lads hit 3woods & drivers and walk off with 7s and 8s.

Wow. Sounds like a terrible hole for amateur golfers

GreeBo

harpsman wrote: »

Wow. Sounds like a terrible hole for amateur golfers

I think its a great hole (one of many!)
Its all laid out in front of you...no tricks or traps...
Quite a few of the holes on the course are like that. If you are having a good day you dont even notice, but get out of position and you are looking at big numbers.

Its index 7, so probably 80% of the club have a shot there....ego has lads hitting drivers up there every weekend though.

/edit
its a hell of a 19th too!
very hard to know what to do in a match if you are hitting first and its sudden death.

Horrid Henry

Starting with two Par 3s isn't great TBH.

I prefer the Grange layout which incorporates two of the holes on the outer six.

GreeBo

Horrid Henry wrote: »

Starting with two Par 3s isn't great TBH.

I prefer the Grange layout which incorporates two of the holes on the outer six.

There are 3 layouts, skipping 2 and 15 (both par 3) and adding in a par 5 and a par 4, and skipping 1,2, 12, 13, 15 adding in 2 par 5s, 2 par 4s and a long par 3.

Have to say I think the first is too good a hole to skip. Its far easier to bash a driver up a par 4 and ease yourself into the round.

I also think the 2nd is a great hole, other than it being different I dont really see any issue with starting with 2 par3s...they are totally different holes...

Horrid Henry

GreeBo wrote: »

There are 3 layouts, skipping 2 and 15 (both par 3) and adding in a par 5 and a par 4, and skipping 1,2, 12, 13, 15 adding in 2 par 5s, 2 par 4s and a long par 3.

Have to say I think the first is too good a hole to skip. Its far easier to bash a driver up a par 4 and ease yourself into the round.

I also think the 2nd is a great hole, other than it being different I dont really see any issue with starting with 2 par3s...they are totally different holes...

They're different alright...I just don't agree with them being the first and the second. Both good holes.

Nothing shoddy about making 3 3 but so easy to make 5 5

harpsman

GreeBo wrote: »

I do grip it and rip it...its much easier to rip it when you are confident that you are hitting the right club and arent trying to steer it down the fairway.
Id say 90% of the time my rescue is no more than 20 yards behind where an average driver would be, because I swing confidently at it and nail it.

I used to just play based on the yardage, if Im far away then hit whatever club is supposed to go that distance...I did that for years and got nowhere handicap wise. Sure I had some scores, but long term my handicap wasnt improving and it was frustrating to hit great shots and not score.

I dunno about you guys but a great drive with a sh1tty score at the end doesnt give me more enjoyment than a nice run of solid pars...especially at the end of the day when adding up the card.
Its sad and twee, but there are no descriptions on the score card...

Nicklaus had a saying that he would always make sure to not beat himself...if someone else played well and won, fair play to them, but dont ever beat yourself out there. This is basically my interpretation of that.

(my mother game similar advice, but I dont think she was talking about golf! :eek:)

I think ive had this discussion with you before. My point is that you dont seem to accept that what is best course management for you is not necessarily best course management for everybody. Some people have a good long game but are bad chippers and bunker players. It might be better management for them to get the ball as far down there as possible and hit as many girs as possible even if they do hit an odd wayward one

harpsman

GreeBo wrote: »

I think its a great hole (one of many!)
Its all laid out in front of you...no tricks or traps...
Quite a few of the holes on the course are like that. If you are having a good day you dont even notice, but get out of position and you are looking at big numbers.

Its index 7, so probably 80% of the club have a shot there....ego has lads hitting drivers up there every weekend though.

/edit
its a hell of a 19th too!
very hard to know what to do in a match if you are hitting first and its sudden death.

Meh. I think a par 3 that has good golfers laying up 30 yards short is poor. Personally I have no problem taking less club and trying to land it safely short of green generally but dont like sound of that hole. Just personal opinion

mag

harpsman wrote: »

Meh. I think a par 3 that has good golfers laying up 30 yards short is poor. Personally I have no problem taking less club and trying to land it safely short of green generally but dont like sound of that hole. Just personal opinion

its a good hole, nothing wrong with the design. i dont see it as a layup but each to their own.
the green can be treacherous too if cut low. played there a few yrs ago & the gui had the hole on the side of a slope (left front)...there was near mutiny

GreeBo

harpsman wrote: »

I think ive had this discussion with you before. My point is that you dont seem to accept that what is best course management for you is not necessarily best course management for everybody. Some people have a good long game but are bad chippers and bunker players. It might be better management for them to get the ball as far down there as possible and hit as many girs as possible even if they do hit an odd wayward one

I've said several times on several threads (including this one) that its different for everyone and is based on experience and ability.

The point I wont concede (at least not yet) is that a 20 something handicap golfer should be more aggressive than a lower handicap golfer.

harpsman

GreeBo wrote: »

I've said several times on several threads (including this one) that its different for everyone and is based on experience and ability.

The point I wont concede (at least not yet) is that a 20 something handicap golfer should be more aggressive than a lower handicap golfer.

We ll just have to agree to disagree:)

slingerz

Course management depends on the course though. as an 18 handicapper in my home course i would use the driver on probably 12 of the 18. i could use a lesser club on perhaps a couple more but the danger isnt there on a number of holes plus im a good driver of the ball just wouldnt be break around the greens/short game.

course management is specific to the player, course and weather conditions IMO

TrapperChamonix

GreeBo wrote: »

I've said several times on several threads (including this one) that its different for everyone and is based on experience and ability.

The point I wont concede (at least not yet) is that a 20 something handicap golfer should be more aggressive than a lower handicap golfer.

I'd agree with you, but you'd never get a job with Mizuno with that attitude...:D
http://www.mizunousa.com/golf/products/mizuno-jpx-ez-irons#.UlPoZFP-vLM

slingerz

just on this topic, while playing at the weekend as an 18 handicapper i decided to take the thoughts of Greebo on board here.

i struggle with the short game aspect, 50 yard pitches or chip shots around the green so decided to tee off with a variety of different clubs from 6i to 3W. Varying degrees of success but generally found that hitting the fairway and then taking an 8i to the green rather than half a PW generally had more success and less shots taken than going driver on each occasion.

That said a 3w on the par 5 17th went OOB possibly due to the lack of practice in teeing off with it. Now this practice started only on the 10th after turning with 14 points i decided it was worth experimenting with.

On review on the front 9, the 1st is a par 5 and i think a 5i off the tee with a second 5i down the fairway should give me a handy shot to the green and take out any hazards or OOB which are left and right. The 2nd & 6th are Par 3 so easily reachable with a 9i and 5i. The 3rd is a difficult hole with the ground falling away to the right. A driver is needed here if the goal is to par the hole. A 4 hybrid should bring me to the start of the fairway while a good drive will bring me to within a 6i distance of the green. A bit of a dilemma here.

The 4th is a driveable Par 4 as its down the hill. however anything wild will mean coming over trees into the green and again the short game wouldnt be my strong point. Perhaps a 5i out the fairway and a PW to the green is the best option. The 5th is a straight uphill par 4. the trees on the left hand side are the only thing to avoid as going out the RHS is wide option. A driver here is relatively safe

The 7th is index 1 Par 4 which was once a Par 5. Very few will make it in 2 even taking a driver off the tee. fairway falls to the right where there is a stream and a lot of trees. LHS has OOB and heavy rough. Thinking about it, even in taking the driver, especially off the back tees its pretty much a 3 shot par 4. Would take a 5 here most days being fair about it. Possibly take the 4 hybrid/3 wood off the tee depending on how I am hitting them.

The 8th is a par 4 with OOB left and directly in front of the tee. Trees line the RHS also. Into the wind it is a long enough Par 4 however with no wind or wind behind a 4 hybrid should find the fairway and a 6i would be enough to reach the green. Artiifical tee box though makes it difficult to get a tee into the ground meaning its only really suitable for the larger tees for driving. Think I may persist with the driver on this hole. The 9th is another par 4 with OOB LHS and a large wooded area to the right. Fairway slopes away to the left with the green protected by 4 bunkers. Again, depending on wind direction a driver it often needed. Might stick with the driver here again.

Any comments on the above holes for course management? Might go through the back 9 as well if it gets good feedback for course management comments

realgolfgeek

Take your index 1 for example that you mentioned.
3 9 irons or 3 8 irons would have you on the green in 3 no ? Stitch it, you make a par, two putt you have your 2 points.

That's not how I play golf but isn't that course management ?

GreeBo

slingerz wrote: »

Any comments on the above holes for course management? Might go through the back 9 as well if it gets good feedback for course management comments

All I'd say is start trying out some strategies on the front 9 and adjust based on the results you get. If an iron off the tee is putting you under more pressure than a driver would, dont hit the iron, etc, etc.

realgolfgeek wrote: »

Take your index 1 for example that you mentioned.
3 9 irons or 3 8 irons would have you on the green in 3 no ? Stitch it, you make a par, two putt you have your 2 points.

That's not how I play golf but isn't that course management ?

I wouldnt say thats course management. Thats just playing "safe" on every shot. If you are crap at 9irons then its a terrible strategy. If the hole is wide open its also a poor strategy.

also, 3 x 8/9iron would get me about 360m....short par 5!

realgolfgeek

GreeBo wrote: »

I wouldnt say thats course management. Thats just playing "safe" on every shot. If you are crap at 9irons then its a terrible strategy. If the hole is wide open its also a poor strategy.

also, 3 x 8/9iron would get me about 360m....short par 5!

Of course if he's crap at 9 irons it's a terrible strategy, that goes without saying !!!

and it is course management. there's trouble everywhere on the hole apparantely, so how is that NOT course management, especially for an 18 handicapper where 2 points will suffice.
If it's not course management, then your opening tee shot in the grange is also playing it "safe".
BTW, it's a par 4, not a par 5 that's in question here.

slingerz

its 460 metres Par 4 so i reckon i'd be short with 3 9i to be honest. reckon if i played short of the green along the RHS but not too far right thats its hindered by trees a 3rd shot in there wouldnt be too bad. Different hole off the green tees though i reckon i'd be a lot better from those using a hybrid than a driver to be honest

realgolfgeek

slingerz wrote: »

its 460 metres Par 4

that's a pretty mental decision by the club to make this a Par 4 instead of a Par 5 !! what was the reasoning ?

Is that off the whites, blues ?

PARlance

460 meter Par 4...that's just a bit ridiculous.
Our Index 1 is a 453 Yard par 4 from the blues and it requires 2 big shots to get up to it. Made my first GIR on it on Saturday and it took me all I have with driver, 3 hybrid.
Couldn't imagine many hitting it with an extra 50 yards added onto it though.

slingerz

thats off the back tees. only the really low handicappers or the really big hitting mid handicappers have a chance of making it in 2 i would reckon. i'd hit the ball far enough but i wouldnt keep it on target/in control at the distance involved.

i would play it as a par 5 off the back tees, which it has been in most cases this year. when its off the greens it just seems a lot easier. i have previously always used the driver on this hole so i'm wondering would my scoring average reduce by playing it as a 5 and scraping the odd 4 by being safer off the tee. A birdie here is nigh on impossible for me off the back tees and relatively improbable off the greens too.

realgolfgeek

slingerz wrote: »

thats off the back tees. only the really low handicappers or the really big hitting mid handicappers have a chance of making it in 2 i would reckon. i'd hit the ball far enough but i wouldnt keep it on target/in control at the distance involved.

i would play it as a par 5 off the back tees, which it has been in most cases this year. when its off the greens it just seems a lot easier. i have previously always used the driver on this hole so i'm wondering would my scoring average reduce by playing it as a 5 and scraping the odd 4 by being safer off the tee. A birdie here is nigh on impossible for me off the back tees and relatively improbable off the greens too.

I would say play it as a Par 5, at least you know what you're capable and not capable of, which is a big plus. You often getting people thinking they can carve the ball any way they want, when they simply can't. So, IMO, your attitude is a good plus.
Secondly, I would say to myself,
what yardage do I really play well from, it may be 60 yards with a wedge or 130 yards with a 9 iron, but try leave your third shot onto the green with the shot that you're most confident with.
With that in mind, you'll be able to assess what you need to hit for your tee shot and second shot.

slingerz

cheers for the feeback. another bug bear of mind is the following. I landed on the first green this weekend in regulation the ball landed slightly left of centre and proceeded to roll off to the left and trickle into the bunker. the same with the 9th landed on the green and rolled off the left side and into the bunker. neither of these shots was heading in that direction until it landed on the green. pretty annoyig to be repairing your pitch mark before you take your bunker shot

on the 14th i had a drive that landed on the fairway and proceeded to roll off to the left into a pond.


find it difficult to believe that you should be punished for landing where your supposed to be playing from!