Just what *is* good course management?

For Paws

If course management is ;

Letting your ability choose your club & shot rather than the course dictate it.

Deliberately avoiding the worst trouble at the cost of distance or best line.

Taking whatever action that keeps 6 (or more) off your scorecard in preference to the very unusual 3 (or less).

Playing to always leave an uphill putt, rather than a tap-in cross hill.

Never following a poor shot with a stupid one.

Then I'm all for course management.
(If using your brain to play then I reckon GreeBo has the best approach)

realgolfgeek

josie19 wrote: »

If a hole has the possibility of being a card wrecker then YES - Take the conservative route !!

I'm sorry but a 9 handicap golf NOT going for a 200 yard par 3 is just ludicrous. Take a poll of all 9 handicap golfers and I can guarantee you a very very little percentage would not go for it.


P.S Laying up on a par 3 to 30 or 40 yards away isn't exactly playing for par (you may get it 50% of the time, but you'd mentally settle for a bogey)

sodbuster77

GreeBo wrote: »

its 180M min uphill for a start. Thats a perfect 3iron or a rescue to the back for me.
RHS is OOB from the tee all the way to the green.
Over the green is a forest.
Green high along the LHS is a 10M sheer drop to rough. a ball running down the face is lost of ivy, a river runs the length of the hole about 20M left.
So to take enough club to get onto the green (and avoid the 4 pot bunkers) I'm bringing in OOB for a fade and a wet or lost ball or at best a very hard pitch for a draw.
I hit s 6 iron shot of all the bunkers, leaves me a 30-50M pitch and I get up and down about 50% of the time.

Every week I watch lads hit 3woods & drivers and walk off with 7s and 8s.

Without a doubt the toughest starting hole I've ever played. You feel like a king walking off with a par!

realgolfgeek

sodbuster77 wrote: »

Without a doubt the toughest starting hole I've ever played. You feel like a king walking off with a par!

Really ? I don't think it's that bad to be honest.

GreeBo

sodbuster77 wrote: »

Without a doubt the toughest starting hole I've ever played. You feel like a king walking off with a par!

Shane Lowry popped an 8i on during the week!:eek:

Id be going for it every day if I was only hitting a 7 or 8i

GreeBo

realgolfgeek wrote: »

I'm sorry but a 9 handicap golf NOT going for a 200 yard par 3 is just ludicrous. Take a poll of all 9 handicap golfers and I can guarantee you a very very little percentage would not go for it.


P.S Laying up on a par 3 to 30 or 40 yards away isn't exactly playing for par (you may get it 50% of the time, but you'd mentally settle for a bogey)

Ludicrous?
How many times have you played it out of interest?
Take that poll of 9 handicappers who play it every week and I think you'll see a more accurate poll.

Sorry but it most certainly is playing for a par. Its a 1 putt par put a par none the less. Its removing the chance of a an eagle and a birdie but also the chance of a double or worse.
Mentally settling for a bogey doesnt mean Im playing for one. Id be expecting to get my pitch to within 10 feet 80% of the time and hole that probably 60-70% of the time (its not a difficult putt)
I think we will have to agree to disagree on this one.

realgolfgeek

GreeBo wrote: »

Ludicrous?
How many times have you played it out of interest?
Take that poll of 9 handicappers who play it every week and I think you'll see a more accurate poll.

Sorry but it most certainly is playing for a par. Its a 1 putt par put a par none the less. Its removing the chance of a an eagle and a birdie but also the chance of a double or worse.
Mentally settling for a bogey doesnt mean Im playing for one. Id be expecting to get my pitch to within 10 feet 80% of the time and hole that probably 60-70% of the time (its not a difficult putt)
I think we will have to agree to disagree on this one.

I doubt the figures would change that much at all actually.
Are you telling me a big percentage of say 7 to 10 handicap golfers in your club lay up to that hole ? I seriously doubt it.

GreeBo

realgolfgeek wrote: »

I doubt the figures would change that much at all actually.
Are you telling me a big percentage of say 7 to 10 handicap golfers in your club lay up to that hole ? I seriously doubt it.

I'm telling you that a lot of the people who dont lay up come off with worse than a bogey.
I think you have a problem with laying up on a par 3 and are discounting the specific par 3 in question.
There are longer par 3s on the course that I do go for; not this one though.

How many times have you played it? How did you score?

realgolfgeek

GreeBo wrote: »

How many times have you played it? How did you score?

I've played it once.
I hit a 6 iron pin high to the right fringe. 3 putted cause the greens were so slow and bumpy due to forking.

Rikand

realgolfgeek wrote: »

I'm sorry but a 9 handicap golf NOT going for a 200 yard par 3 is just ludicrous. Take a poll of all 9 handicap golfers and I can guarantee you a very very little percentage would not go for it.


P.S Laying up on a par 3 to 30 or 40 yards away isn't exactly playing for par (you may get it 50% of the time, but you'd mentally settle for a bogey)

i read the first page and now the last one, but are we still talking about the first at Greebo's club ?

if so, its index 7....

for a 9 handicapper, Bogey is absolutely fine!

realgolfgeek

Rickylovesuall wrote: »

for a 9 handicapper, Bogey is absolutely fine!

Absolutely ..
I'm just disagreeing that it's a lay up hole.

GreeBo

realgolfgeek wrote: »

I've played it once.
I hit a 6 iron pin high to the right fringe. 3 putted cause the greens were so slow and bumpy due to forking.

6 iron, so Im assuming you played off the whites?
I go for it off the whites too, Im talking about off the back of the blues (where it is every Saturday)

realgolfgeek

GreeBo wrote: »

6 iron, so Im assuming you played off the whites?
I go for it off the whites too, Im talking about off the back of the blues (where it is every Saturday)

Yes, I'd say there was a 10 to 12 yard difference to where the blues were.

GreeBo

realgolfgeek wrote: »

Yes, I'd say there was a 10 to 12 yard difference to where the blues were.

Well it was 187M to the pin yesterday, all uphill, all carry thats not a 6iron for me.

Like I said, off the typical medal tee's its a rescue or 3i to the back, 4 to the front/middle.
At least at the moment, for me, thats too much club to hit to a narrow target, it brings in a score of 5 or worse for the odd chance of a lucky birdie.

If I was capable of hitting the green from that tee with a 6 iron I would go for it everytime; Im not, so I dont!

/edit
There is 20m between the white and blue tees. The tee area was lengthened a couple of years ago,so the blue marker is now not at the back of the tee. It might be that you saw the tee markers there (the leave them at the marker when cutting the grass).

Rikand

realgolfgeek wrote: »

Absolutely ..
I'm just disagreeing that it's a lay up hole.

by the sound of all the dangers around it, it seems like it's a good strategy, especially if you want to make par/bogey.

it sounds somewhat similar to the 10th in Athlone. 180 meters, Up hill, bunkers front left and front right - OOB on the Right and trees down the left.

Now I still go for it myself but there's a lot of people who have a shot on the hole who lay up to about 30 yards short of the green and go for the up and down for par, my dad did exactly this today

Goldenjohn

GreeBo wrote: »

I'm telling you that a lot of the people who dont lay up come off with worse than a bogey.
I think you have a problem with laying up on a par 3 and are discounting the specific par 3 in question.
There are longer par 3s on the course that I do go for; not this one though.

How many times have you played it? How did you score?

Greebo, out of interest how do you play it without a card in your hand? I presume you have a crack at it...how does your scoring compare?

GreeBo

Rickylovesuall wrote: »

by the sound of all the dangers around it, it seems like it's a good strategy, especially if you want to make par/bogey.

it sounds somewhat similar to the 10th in Athlone. 180 meters, Up hill, bunkers front left and front right - OOB on the Right and trees down the left.

Now I still go for it myself but there's a lot of people who have a shot on the hole who lay up to about 30 yards short of the green and go for the up and down for par, my dad did exactly this today

Id probably go for it more often if it was the 10th or later in the round. We sometimes start on the 7th and play back around, making the first the 13th, I would be more likely to go for it on those days also.

But first shot of the day in a strokes comp? Nah!:eek:

GreeBo

Goldenjohn wrote: »

Greebo, out of interest how do you play it without a card in your hand? I presume you have a crack at it...how does your scoring compare?

Casual golf will always be off the whites so its a good 2 clubs less, so I'll go for it everytime. That said I dont think I have any more pars, if you miss the green you are dead 60% of the time and have no shot, so end up pitching out sideways to where a layup would have been.

Casual off the blues I'll have a go with the rescue, but its tough (for me) to hit a green with the rescue, my natural shot is a draw and long left is not where you want to be on that hole so Im trying to fade it up there.

sodbuster77

realgolfgeek wrote: »

Really ? I don't think it's that bad to be honest.

It wouldn't bother me if it was a few holes into the course but it just one of those holes that I tend to struggle on

GreeBo

sodbuster77 wrote: »

It wouldn't bother me if it was a few holes into the course but it just one of those holes that I tend to struggle on

1st and 2nd are card wreckers. You can play them 90% and walk off 3 or 4 over. It all depends on the day. I prefer to make them "nothing" holes and just neutralise them. It very demoralising to have 16 holes left to play and already have burnt half your handicap.

Horrid Henry

Good course management is mitigating the possibility of disastrous sh1t happening to you.

This Par 3 that's being talked about seems to be a classic example. It's easy to make "3.5" every time by laying up. Going for the green yields a 2 once in a blue moon, the odd 3 and quite a few 5s and worse.

It makes perfect sense.

m r c

Quote Greebo

my natural shot is a draw and long left is not where you want to be on that hole so Im trying to fade it up there.

This is a very important part of course mgt here. I don't know the hole we are on about here but if it doesn't suit your natural shot shape you are playing a bigger percentage miss on this hole.

I hadn't read or you hadn't mentioned this earlier.

But your shot shape and ergo your miss plays a big part when deciding the best strategy on a given hole. So with that in mind I'd give a lot more credibility to your idea on this one.

GreeBo

m r c wrote: »

Quote Greebo

my natural shot is a draw and long left is not where you want to be on that hole so Im trying to fade it up there.

This is a very important part of course mgt here. I don't know the hole we are on about here but if it doesn't suit your natural shot shape you are playing a bigger percentage miss on this hole.

I hadn't read or you hadn't mentioned this earlier.

But your shot shape and ergo your miss plays a big part when deciding the best strategy on a given hole. So with that in mind I'd give a lot more credibility to your idea on this one.

tbf I've said since day 1 that your course strategy is just that, *yours*; its based on *your* ability and *your* experience.

Course Strategy is all about percentages, if my miss was a slice I wouldnt go for it either, left is either stopped by a forest or OB, bouncing down the road.
The only bad shot you get away with is a knockdown.

m r c

GreeBo wrote: »

tbf I've said since day 1 that your course strategy is just that, *yours*; its based on *your* ability and *your* experience.

Course Strategy is all about percentages, if my miss was a slice I wouldnt go for it either, left is either stopped by a forest or OB, bouncing down the road.
The only bad shot you get away with is a knockdown.

Am idk what way my post reads I was trying to agree with you??

GreeBo

m r c wrote: »

Am idk what way my post reads I was trying to agree with you??

yep, Im just explaining that my natural shape isnt the only reason why I often typically lay up here.

For Paws

Rickylovesuall wrote: »

by the sound of all the dangers around it, it seems like it's a good strategy, especially if you want to make par/bogey.

it sounds somewhat similar to the 10th in Athlone. 180 meters, Up hill, bunkers front left and front right - OOB on the Right and trees down the left.

Now I still go for it myself but there's a lot of people who have a shot on the hole who lay up to about 30 yards short of the green and go for the up and down for par, my dad did exactly this today

From memory the oob right is a long way right (over the 11th teebox),
but it's certainly a card wrecker. Most first time players underclub and then 4 is a good result. But any experienced players should be able to avoid the obvious difficulty. I reckon No.1 at Grange is worse by far.

stockdam

I played a lot of matchplay in my younger days and would generally use a 5 wood off the tee except at most par 5s. I kept the ball in play and overall that won me more holes than using my driver on each hole. I wouldn't play as conservatively when playing with my friends but when I wanted to be competitive I played the shot that had most chance of staying out of trouble. In one sense this helped the mental side as there's nothing worse than handing your opponent the hole and beating yourself up. It also made me concentrate much more on my chipping and putting as often I'd have to get up and down to par a hole.

Rikand

For Paws wrote: »

From memory the oob right is a long way right (over the 11th teebox),
but it's certainly a card wrecker. Most first time players underclub and then 4 is a good result. But any experienced players should be able to avoid the obvious difficulty. I reckon No.1 at Grange is worse by far.

which emphasises the points being made for laying up

coddlesangers

very interesting thread, thanks Greebo. I've played Grange lots in the past, but not for a good few years now (maybe 5 or 6). I've been consistently between 7 and 9 handicap for around 20 years now, and for my eye, I've always considered the 1st to be a tough par 3, but I'd never really considered not hitting 4i or so off the tee. Now it happens that my long irons are one of the strongest part of my game and i am always confident that i'll get close enough to the short stuff not to be in trouble - but hearing you describe the hole makes me realize that your strategy is probably the exact one i'd use if i had to play it every week in strokes. Any time i'm playing grange, its either some interclub matchplay or it is a stableford compo, a par 3 with a shot means the "reward" of a 3 pointer from just hitting 1 decent iron would always win out in my head. Similarly, if its a matchplay and i'm hitting first, being confident in my long irons would have me trying to pressure the other guy by getting in early. The other thing i would say is that course management isn't always about being conservative, sometimes you can get a round going by taking a risky shot on and having it work, i know for my head, i get a much bigger mental boost from a scrambled miracle par than i do from a regulation on in two and two putt effort... I think selecting the right shot at the right time is the essence, not always picking the "safest" option. You do need to know the limits of possible / impossible for a given lie and / or circumstances.

GreeBo

coddlesangers wrote: »

The other thing i would say is that course management isn't always about being conservative, sometimes you can get a round going by taking a risky shot on and having it work, i know for my head, i get a much bigger mental boost from a scrambled miracle par than i do from a regulation on in two and two putt effort... I think selecting the right shot at the right time is the essence, not always picking the "safest" option. You do need to know the limits of possible / impossible for a given lie and / or circumstances.

Agree 100%.
On the 5th I hit driver all day every day and carry it straight over the trees.
Its the shot that gives me the most chance of success as it leaves me with 50/60m to the pin.
playing to the fairway off the tee would leave me 100m and, imo, its a much tougher tee shot.