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Breaking Bad Episode 15: Granite State

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    #842
    Torqay
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,835 ✭✭✭Torqay


    Penn wrote: »
    Jesse isn't a gangster. He isn't some mob guy. He was just a small-time wannabe who made a little bit of meth and tried to act a lot tougher than he was.

    Heartwrenching stuff, but let's not forget, Jesse is a murderer and equally responsible for the misery they brought upon the thousands of unnamed victims of their little endeavour.


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    #843
    snausages
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,225 ✭✭✭snausages


    Torqay wrote: »
    Heartwrenching stuff, but let's not forget, Jesse is a murderer and equally responsible for the misery they brought upon the thousands of unnamed victims of their little endeavour.

    I don't think Jesse deserves much more sympathy than Walt. Sure, Walt is definitely worse but even after witnessing the conditions of Spooge's meth den he was still keen to be making mad stacks when they did that desert cook-up.


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    #844
    Madame K
    Registered Users Posts: 125 ✭✭Madame K


    Mr Freeze wrote: »
    Well said Penn RE: Jesse

    I have loads of sympathy for him, really hope he survives this, although I'd say he would rather be dead now after the Andrea incident.

    Maybe Andrea's death is his turning point-like when Gus witnessed his friend/business partner's death at the hands of the cartel. Jesse may be the last standing but he'd likely be cold blooded.


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    #845
    Penn
    Registered Users Posts: 33,340 ✭✭✭✭Penn


    Torqay wrote: »
    Heartwrenching stuff, but let's not forget, Jesse is a murderer and equally responsible for the misery they brought upon the thousands of unnamed victims of their little endeavour.

    He killed Gale to save Walt, and we saw how doing so affected him. He's not like others in the show who kill and move on. Walt has killed in similar circumstances and shown little-to-no remorse. Hell, Jesse feels more remorse for Drew Sharp's death than Walt and Todd combined and he didn't even pull the trigger. Other than that, Jesse killed one of the cartel guys in self-defense after they'd just shot Mike. And when Jesse was going to kill Gus' men who had killed Andrea's brother, you could see the pain in his face.

    Jesse has killed, but never for the sake of it, and never without it affecting him deeply afterwards. And I definitely wouldn't hold him equally responsible for the misery brought on from Walt & Jesse cooking. As I said, Walt manipulated and used Jesse multiple times.


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    #846
    Torqay
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,835 ✭✭✭Torqay


    No matter how you spin it, killing Gale was premeditated murder.


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    #847
    Posy
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 27,539 Mod ✭✭✭✭Posy


    I think Penn's point is more how much killing Gael affected Jesse, whereas Walt and most of the other characters just killed and moved on, with no remorse.


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    #848
    Penn
    Registered Users Posts: 33,340 ✭✭✭✭Penn


    Torqay wrote: »
    No matter how you spin it, killing Gale was premeditated murder.

    Not saying it wasn't, but Jesse originally couldn't bring himself to do it so Walt said he would. Jesse even tried to convince Walt not to. Then when Mike had Walt, Jesse knew if he didn't kill Gale, they'd kill Walt. He knew he had to do it as it was the only way to save Walt. Yes, it was premeditated murder. But not one that Jesse wanted to commit, and one that deeply affected him afterwards, something that can't be said for most of the others in the show who have also killed people, including Walt.


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    #849
    Killer_banana
    Registered Users Posts: 2,759 ✭✭✭Killer_banana


    Agree with everything said about Jesse not being as bad as others but also Jesse's arc isn't about him being a good guy all the way though, it's about redemption. It's basically the reverse of Walt's arc (except Jesse never was as dark as Walt has become).

    To me, Jesse is the only spark of hope and possible light (as light as BB can get anyway) left in this show. How dark would this show be if he had died in the first season like originally planned?


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    #850
    DublinWriter
    Registered Users Posts: 9,555 ✭✭✭DublinWriter


    Neil McCauleys Cooler Brother wrote: »
    Is there anything chemically unique in an M60 gun? Some parts he needs to concoct something ingenious? Probably not. You show a gun in the first act; you gotta use it in the third.
    No - I think it's in reference to an earlier scene where Walt and Walt jnr are watching the 'Say Hello to my little friend' scene in Scarface.

    I have a horrible feeling that this line will be reused in the last episode.

    Walt has most definitely got the M60 to deal with the biker gang.


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    #851
    Holsten
    Registered Users Posts: 4,971 ✭✭✭Holsten


    If Jesse survives I'll be pissed, throughout the last season I've just grown to completely dislike him.


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    #852
    Torqay
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,835 ✭✭✭Torqay


    Of course, killing Gale was important for the story, but it doesn't change the fact Jesse has committed enough crimes to put him away for life and then some. Whether he was under Walt's spell or not does make little difference. And I don't buy this "poor remorseful Jesse" BS, he only blames Walter for everything bad happening to him when it was him who made all the wrong choices in life.


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    #853
    Torqay
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,835 ✭✭✭Torqay


    DublinWriter wrote: »
    Walt has most definitely got the M60 to deal with the biker gang.

    Biker gang? Wrong show! :D


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    #854
    Mousewar
    Registered Users Posts: 2,741 ✭✭✭Mousewar


    Torqay wrote: »
    Of course, killing Gale was important for the story, but it doesn't change the fact Jesse has committed enough crimes to put him away for life and then some. Whether he was under Walt's spell or not does make little difference. And I don't buy this "poor remorseful Jesse" BS, he only blames Walter for everything bad happening to him when it was him who made all the wrong choices in life.

    Not sure what you're arguing here. Sure he hates Walt, but he's perfectly aware of his own fault. That's what he's remorseful about. As he said himself: "I'm the bad guy". Point is that he actually feels bad about it all - Walt doesn't.


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    #855
    Wacker The Attacker
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,473 ✭✭✭Wacker The Attacker


    Penn wrote: »
    Constantly betrayed and manipulated by who he thought was his friend and mentor, who went to the extent of poisoning a child Jesse cared about in order to manipulate him.

    "Crybaby rat bitch" is not the term I'd use for Jesse. Think about all Jesse has been through because of Walt. Beaten up by Tuco. Almost killed by Tuco. One of his best friends is killed because Walt pushed to take over rival drug dealers territory. Girlfriend died because of Walt (if he hadn't shown up she wouldn't have rolled over) and Walt let Jesse believe it was his own fault. Badly beaten up by Hank. Had to kill Gale to save Walt's life. Finally getting a sense of self-worth and pride by helping Mike and Gus until Walt poisons Brock to manipulate him to turning against Gus. Walt kills Mike who was becoming a better friend and mentor to Jesse. Walt takes all Jesse's money in an effort to manipulate him into continuing to cook with him.

    Even after all that, Jesse still wasn't going to talk to the cops. It was only when he found out about the poisoning that made him do it.

    Walt has thoroughly and completely ruined Jesse's life. But Jesse isn't a gangster. He isn't some mob guy. He was just a small-time wannabe who made a little bit of meth and tried to act a lot tougher than he was. He has no reason to keep quiet to the cops and not "rat". Not after everything Walt's done.

    I didn't invent "crybaby rat bitch". Jacks words. (or a close resemblance thereof).

    Or to paraphrase your last paragraph. Jesse couldn't stand the heat yet made no attempt to leave the kitchen. He knew he didn't have the bollocks for the meth trade and yet persisted. He doesn't deserve sympathy. He has lived and will die by his own decisions. Much like Walter probably will.


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    #856
    Torqay
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,835 ✭✭✭Torqay


    Wacker The Attacker wrote: »
    It's all his fault.

    F**k him

    Righteo

    2EFveof.jpg


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    #857
    Wacker The Attacker
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,473 ✭✭✭Wacker The Attacker


    Mousewar wrote: »
    Not sure what you're arguing here. Sure he hates Walt, but he's perfectly aware of his own fault. That's what he's remorseful about. As he said himself: "I'm the bad guy". Point is that he actually feels bad about it all - Walt doesn't.


    Shouldn't that be rueful. As I've mentioned earlier. Jesse ever had the wherewithal for the high level meth trade that he became involved with. He got involved with the big boys and was crushed by them prettily easily.

    The very fact that he has spent the entire series getting crapped on by the drug gods is testament to this fact.

    Jesse is a scumbag. He's a junkie, a drug dealer and a murderer. Why the hell he gets any sympathy is beyond me.


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    #858
    Wacker The Attacker
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,473 ✭✭✭Wacker The Attacker


    Torqay wrote: »
    Righteo

    2EFveof.jpg

    Jesse has neither the balls or the brain for this business. This is exactly what would have happened to him to in real life.

    He would have been swatted aside by somebody with a bigger ballbag


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    #859
    greenflash
    Registered Users Posts: 499 ✭✭greenflash


    Wacker The Attacker wrote: »
    Jesse is a scumbag. He's a junkie, a drug dealer and a murderer. Why the hell he gets any sympathy is beyond me.

    Because as much as Walt is breaking bad, Jesse is breaking good.


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    #860
    Mousewar
    Registered Users Posts: 2,741 ✭✭✭Mousewar


    Wacker The Attacker wrote: »
    Shouldn't that be rueful. As I've mentioned earlier. Jesse ever had the wherewithal for the high level meth trade that he became involved with. He got involved with the big boys and was crushed by them prettily easily.

    The very fact that he has spent the entire series getting crapped on by the drug gods is testament to this fact.

    Jesse is a scumbag. He's a junkie, a drug dealer and a murderer. Why the hell he gets any sympathy is beyond me.

    Because he's a human that made some mistakes and is paying bitterly for them. If you only had sympathy for completely blameless people then you'd never have sympathy for anyone.


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    #861
    Wacker The Attacker
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,473 ✭✭✭Wacker The Attacker


    greenflash wrote: »
    Because as much as Walt is breaking bad, Jesse is breaking good.


    No. Just no. He's a scumbag. Maybe not in walter whites league but a scumbag nonetheless


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    #862
    Wacker The Attacker
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,473 ✭✭✭Wacker The Attacker


    Mousewar wrote: »
    Because he's a human that made some mistakes and is paying bitterly for them. If you only had sympathy for completely blameless people then you'd never have sympathy for anyone.


    Walter White "made some mistakes and is paying bitterly for them".

    Does this entitle to him sympathy? Absolutely not. I fail to see why Jesse should be viewed any differently.

    They were partners. They may not be in the same bracket here but they are guilty of the same thing to a greater or lesser degree


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    #863
    Wacker The Attacker
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,473 ✭✭✭Wacker The Attacker


    jcsoulinger wrote: »
    Maybe Walt dies saving jesse, then jesse is compelled to deliver walts money to Walt Jr.


    At which point he'll probably be told to f**k off


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    #864
    Mousewar
    Registered Users Posts: 2,741 ✭✭✭Mousewar


    Wacker The Attacker wrote: »
    Walter White "made some mistakes and is paying bitterly for them".

    Does this entitle to him sympathy? Absolutely not. I fail to see why Jesse should be viewed any differently.

    They were partners. They may not be in the same bracket here but they are guilty of the same thing to a greater or lesser degree

    Entitle is the wrong word but yes I do have sympathy for him as well.

    They've both done evil things but only one of them has been inherently corrupted by evil. That sets Jessie apart but I have sympathy for both. You seem eager to just condemn them both to hell.


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    #865
    Dman001
    Registered Users Posts: 5,534 ✭✭✭Dman001


    Wacker The Attacker wrote: »
    Walter White "made some mistakes and is paying bitterly for them".

    Does this entitle to him sympathy? Absolutely not. I fail to see why Jesse should be viewed any differently.

    They were partners. They may not be in the same bracket here but they are guilty of the same thing to a greater or lesser degree

    A lot of what Jesse has done had been the cause of manipulation from Walt. He has said no many times to Walt, and voiced up when he thought something shouldn't be done. But Walt's dominance and influence over him has lead him down so many roads which have caused murders and pain. Walt doesn't accept "no" when there's a chance to make money or that saves his own ass. Look at all the beatings Jesse has taken from Krazy 8, Tuco, Hank and now the Nazis. How many has Walt received? Jesse's decisions a lot of the time are due to the fact he is between a rock and a hard place.

    Now that's not to say he shouldn't have rubbed his hands from the meth business altogether - he should have, and eventually did. And even that was struggle, and a fight against Walt. Jesse is an immature guy that was lead down a constant dark downward spiral due to to the actions of Walt and his huge ego. That's why viewers sympathise with him.


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    #866
    Wacker The Attacker
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,473 ✭✭✭Wacker The Attacker


    Dman001 wrote: »
    A lot of what Jesse has done had been the cause of manipulation from Walt. He has said no many times to Walt, and voiced up when he thought something shouldn't be done. But Walt's dominance and influence over him has lead him down so many roads which have caused murders and pain. Walt doesn't accept "no" when there's a chance to make money or that saves his own ass. Look at all the beatings Jesse has taken from Krazy 8, Tuco, Hank and now the Nazis. How many has Walt received? Jesse's decisions a lot of the time are due to the fact he is between a rock and a hard place.

    Now that's not to say he shouldn't have rubbed his hands from the meth business altogether - he should have, and eventually did. And even that was struggle, and a fight against Walt. Jesse is an immature guy that was lead down a constant dark downward spiral due to to the actions of Walt and his huge ego. That's why viewers sympathise with him.

    Does this make it ok?

    Walter manipulated Jesse because he could.


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    #867
    Wacker The Attacker
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,473 ✭✭✭Wacker The Attacker


    Mousewar wrote: »
    Entitle is the wrong word but yes I do have sympathy for him as well.

    They've both done evil things but only one of them has been inherently corrupted by evil. That sets Jessie apart but I have sympathy for both. You seem eager to just condemn them both to hell.


    Why is it necessary to draw a distinction? Shouldn't they be judged by their actions?


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    #868
    Penn
    Registered Users Posts: 33,340 ✭✭✭✭Penn


    Wacker The Attacker wrote: »
    Why is it necessary to draw a distinction? Shouldn't they be judged by their actions?

    May I ask, who do you sympathise with in the show (discounting Walt.Jr and Holly for obvious reasons)?


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    #869
    Dman001
    Registered Users Posts: 5,534 ✭✭✭Dman001


    Wacker The Attacker wrote: »
    Does this make it ok?

    Walter manipulated Jesse because he could.

    Nope! But Jesse has only actually killed Gale (as far as I can recall, really need to rewatch). And, as best as I can remember, this was due to the fact that Walt's life was at stake at the time. Jesse's dilemma was does he live with the guilt of killing Gale, or live with the guilt of letting Walt die. We know that Jesse held some respect for Walt, and saw he somewhat as a father figure, which lead to his ultimate decision. Now, that still doesn't mean what he did was right at all. But we can respect the moral dilemma he faced. And he became "broken" after he killed him, it genuinely affected him.

    You say that Walt manipulated Jesse because he could. Does this make it okay, and excuse Walt's involvement in Jesse's actions?? I don't think so.


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    #870
    Wacker The Attacker
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,473 ✭✭✭Wacker The Attacker


    Penn wrote: »
    May I ask, who do you sympathise with in the show (discounting Walt.Jr and Holly for obvious reasons)?

    Nobody with the exception of perhaps Marie.

    Walter is Walter.

    Jesse has committed crimes that do not deserve sympathy. Manipulated or not.

    Skyler was complicit. Her predicament is probably worse than she deserves but she is far from blame free. Again her own actions have compounded her problems as much as Walter's have.

    Hanks death was almost inevitable from the time he decided to go rogue so to speak. Hindsight is always 20\20 but he'd have done well to take Marie's advise. He knew his life was in danger from the moment he went after Walt given the circumstances.

    Marie has done little wrong and, as such, would deserve an element of sympathy.

    Saul is f**ked and he knows it. Hence his trip to Nebraska.

    Mike didn't deserve to go the way he did.

    Lydia is still an unknown quantity.

    The Nazis look to have a sh1tstorm coming their way


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    #871
    Torqay
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,835 ✭✭✭Torqay


    Wacker The Attacker wrote: »
    Nobody with the exception of perhaps Marie.


    Don't forget Uncle Jack who did pretty much everything right until he spared the lives of Jesse and Walt. Seriously, how f***ing stupid was that? Two bullets, a good banker and a plane ticket was all he needed to enjoy the rest of his life on some island in the sun. ;)


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