Why is it frowned upon to question the holocaust?

theSHU · 13-08-2013 06:49PM

pmrozik wrote: »

Okay, for all those who want to question the Holocaust - I'm from Poland.

My late grandfather's brother was killed in Oswiecim (Auschwitz). My aunt went to great lengths to retrieve all the documentation from the museum. I've been there. For those of you who have any doubts, fly on over to Krakow and see the museum. Oh, and there are more of them.

Do the museum's mention that the original solution to the "Jewish Problem" was in fact a copy of the Polish plan:

The Madagascar Plan was a proposal of the Nazi government of Germany to relocate the Jewish population of Europe to the island of Madagascar.

The idea of deporting Polish Jews to Madagascar was investigated by the Polish government in 1937, but the task force sent to evaluate the island's potential determined that only 5,000 to 7,000 families could be accommodated, or even as few as 500 families by some estimates. As efforts by the Nazis to encourage emigration of the Jewish population of Germany were only partially successful, the idea of deporting Jews to Madagascar was revived by the Nazi government in 1940, in spite of the island's limited capacity to support human life.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madagascar_Plan

pmrozik · 13-08-2013 07:05PM

theSHU wrote: »

Do the museum's mention that the original solution to the "Jewish Problem" was in fact a copy of the Polish plan:

I'm sure there was such a plan. I do not recall that the museum mentions this, but I think that saying the original solution to the "Jewish Problem" was a Polish plan is far fetched, on a purely factual basis. There is and always has been racism and antisemitism in Poland, but it doesn't mean that I support it.

Nodin · 13-08-2013 07:07PM

theSHU wrote: »

Do the museum's mention that the original solution to the "Jewish Problem" was in fact a copy of the Polish plan:

....and Poland had anti-jewish legislation on the books before the Germans.

traindude · 13-08-2013 07:09PM

Because many people at the time, in American universities and elsewhere were praising eugenics. Especially those dreadful 'liberal' professors. The holocaust showed how awful it was, and the Nazi's were. People are embarrassed about it.

Clandestine · 13-08-2013 07:17PM

Seaneh wrote: »

I don't think anyone in this thread, besides one person who was banned quickly for posing anti-semitic crap and videos of neo-nazi's spouting nonsense.

The David Cole video was worth watching at least, and he was a Jew.

Seaneh · 13-08-2013 07:27PM

Clandestine wrote: »

The David Cole video was worth watching at least, and he was a Jew.

He was Jewish, doesn't mean he is in any way credible.
The man has been exposed as a fraud. He has no education as a historian and his sources are all bull****.

Best At Doing Wheelies · 13-08-2013 07:34PM

Poor fella here got banned the other day for mentioning the Holocaust. I think his post just goes to show how PC people can be, for the sake of being PC. He obviously didn't mean it, he was trying to make a point.

Nodin · 13-08-2013 07:42PM

traindude wrote: »

Because many people at the time, in American universities and elsewhere were praising eugenics. Especially those dreadful 'liberal' professors. The holocaust showed how awful it was, and the Nazi's were. People are embarrassed about it.

It was par for the course across most of Europe (Jew bashing). Eugenics was indeed fashionable. I think Sweden still ran a program until the 1970's.

Christ the Redeemer · 13-08-2013 07:51PM

Nodin wrote: »

It was par for the course across most of Europe (Jew bashing). Eugenics was indeed fashionable. I think Sweden still ran a program until the 1970's.

The feminists were pushing it early in the movements history.

cloud493 · 13-08-2013 08:16PM

Its well established that people were anti semtiic in the west. France had a long history of it, Poland has university quotas, even in the UK and USA it was there. The outcome of the holocaust was that it became unacceptable, to a degree./

Christ the Redeemer · 13-08-2013 08:38PM

cloud493 wrote: »

Its well established that people were anti semtiic in the west. France had a long history of it, Poland has university quotas, even in the UK and USA it was there. The outcome of the holocaust was that it became unacceptable, to a degree./

It became unacceptable the same way racism is unacceptable. We didn't need a black holocaust for that.

theSHU · 13-08-2013 08:45PM

Nodin wrote: »

It was par for the course across most of Europe (Jew bashing). Eugenics was indeed fashionable. I think Sweden still ran a program until the 1970's.

As did Australia with their "White Only" policy.

cloud493 · 13-08-2013 09:04PM

Right. The war also hastened, if not the end of racism, then the beginning of the end of white domination of imperial subjects, usually non whites. Self determination grew significantly. But the important part in this context is, the holocaust arguably caused by the war, made it socially unacceptable at least to discriminate against jews in the west.

biko · 13-08-2013 09:24PM

Another interesting aspect of the Holocaust is "how aware were Germans of the death camps?"
Apparently a significant portion of the population were aware but at the time the general? consensus was that the Roma/Jews/etc was a problem that needed removing (nazi propaganda machine at work). I suppose not everyone understood there were death camps, they mostly thought the Jews were relocated to labour camps or deported. And if they did understand they probably thought "at least they're not coming for me".

Many heroes stepped forward, Raoul Wallenberg, Hugh O’Flaherty in the Vatican and Irena Sendler.

theSHU · 13-08-2013 10:21PM

biko wrote: »

Another interesting aspect of the Holocaust is "how aware were Germans of the death camps?"
Apparently a significant portion of the population were aware but at the time the general? consensus was that the Roma/Jews/etc was a problem that needed removing (nazi propaganda machine at work). I suppose not everyone understood there were death camps, they mostly thought the Jews were relocated to labour camps or deported. And if they did understand they probably thought "at least they're not coming for me".

Many heroes stepped forward, Raoul Wallenberg, Hugh O’Flaherty in the Vatican and Irena Sendler.

Nazi propaganda dosn't explain why the French, Dutch etc. were so eager to export their Jews.

jank · 14-08-2013 12:44AM

Nodin wrote: »

Why would I? I know little about either, nor have I ever spoken on their behalf on these boards. You asked for protests, I showed four.

Is this your new get out clause? Criticise the "left" and selectively use groups to provide cherrypicked examples?

I will take that non answer as an admission of guilt so.

Tony EH · 14-08-2013 01:32AM

biko wrote: »

Another interesting aspect of the Holocaust is "how aware were Germans of the death camps?"
Apparently a significant portion of the population were aware but at the time the general? consensus was that the Roma/Jews/etc was a problem that needed removing (nazi propaganda machine at work). I suppose not everyone understood there were death camps, they mostly thought the Jews were relocated to labour camps or deported. And if they did understand they probably thought "at least they're not coming for me".

Many heroes stepped forward, Raoul Wallenberg, Hugh O’Flaherty in the Vatican and Irena Sendler.

Aware is not the same as know for a fact. During the war there were MANY rumors about a great many many things. Nobody knew what to believe and people were bombarded by propaganda of all colours. It's often bandied around that "the Germans knew...", but such a statement, when even subjected to the slightest of scrutiny falls apart with incredible ease.

It simply would have been impossible for the Germans to have known what was going on, especially in the camps in Poland. How could they have known? During the war, Poland might as well have been on the moon.

Even today, with all the instant news that's at our fingertips, we still don't know what's going on in many warzones around the world. It's unbelievable what can be kept under wraps successfully.

There also was no "general consensus" among the German population. We're talking about an nation of 80.000.000 people here. It's an absolute impossibility to lump any kind of "all in one" aspect on such a number of people.

And in the end, what could any of them have done? Some may have seen Mr and Mrs Goldberg deported to somewhere in the east, but what did that actually mean? As far as Mr and Mrs Schultz were concerned they were just being deported and for for many like them that was the last they heard of it. And the simple fact is that many, many Germans never even seen a Jew. Germany only had about 400.000 - 500.000 Jews and many emigrated during the 30's.

The National Socialists were very careful to carry out the worst of their duties "off campus" as it were. There's a reason why Poland was chosen as a site for the likes of Auschwitz, and not Germany. Even the majority of the party weren't privy to much of the sonderbehandlung. The so called "Final Solution" was kept under very strict wraps and involved a relatively small amount of people.

In addition, we're talking about a totalitarian regime here. This wasn't some system of government that the Germans could vote out of power if they didn't like their policies and not to mention there was actually a war going on, with their women and children being blown to pieces day and night.

I'd say the average German citizen was more concerned with that and the vast majority simply tried to make do with situation that was presented to them.

In the end, the Germans were carried along by the war, as much as anyone else was.

nice_very · 14-08-2013 02:04AM

smcgiff wrote: »

And the potato famine didn't happen either.

on a similar note, I was going to ask if this thread was about the 1940's or the 1840's

Seaneh · 14-08-2013 02:32AM

jank wrote: »

I will take that non answer as an admission of guilt so.

What stupid fu*king post.

Nodin · 14-08-2013 04:54AM

jank wrote: »

I will take that non answer as an admission of guilt so.

Guilt for what and who?

Zebra3 · 14-08-2013 08:15AM

cloud493 wrote: »

Right. The war also hastened, if not the end of racism, then the beginning of the end of white domination of imperial subjects, usually non whites. Self determination grew significantly. But the important part in this context is, the holocaust arguably caused by the war, made it socially unacceptable at least to discriminate against jews in the west.

Not true as it helped bring about the creation of Israel, a state for mainly white European colonialists to indulge in large scale ethnic cleansing of the native population.

Eight Ball · 14-08-2013 08:43AM

Yes the holocaust did happen, anyone who claims otherwise is a fcukwit. Another tragedy is the fact the Israelis have gone on to commit their own holocaust upon the people of Palestine something which mainstream media avoids and refuses to cover.

Zebra3 · 14-08-2013 08:58AM

Eight Ball wrote: »

Yes the holocaust did happen, anyone who claims otherwise is a fcukwit. Another tragedy is the fact the Israelis have gone on to commit their own holocaust upon the people of Palestine something which mainstream media avoids and refuses to cover.

Even RTE's news last night mentioned Israel releasing Palestinians but for some reason avoided mentioning Israel's plans for more illegal colonies on Palestinian land which is in contravention of international law.

biko · 14-08-2013 11:31AM

Eight Ball wrote: »

Yes the holocaust did happen, anyone who claims otherwise is a fcukwit. Another tragedy is the fact the Israelis have gone on to commit their own holocaust upon the people of Palestine something which mainstream media avoids and refuses to cover.

It's hard to stay on the jewish holocaust in Germany when the current conflict is being dragged into it.

Firstly the conflict between Israel and Palestinians is one the most reported war in western media, besides Syria and Iraq. I'd doubt if you can find a single person in Europe that doesn't know about it and is somewhat up to date.
Other wars, particularly in Africa, are unfortunately not deemed as newsworthy, or perhaps everyone are as clued into the Nigerian and Sudanese conflicts? I just don't see their support groups picketing Shop Street, Galway in the weekends.
Pick your battles I suppose.

Secondly can the current I/P situation be correctly described as a "holocaust"?
The actual holocaust killed millions of people on an industrial scale and started with jewish shops marked for boycott and them banned from positions in government. In 1936, Jews were banned from all professional jobs.
On the other hand Israel has an Arab party in it's Dail (Knesset) and Pals work in various professional positions.

I'd be first to agree there is a discrepancy between Israeli and Pals in employment but it's hardly enough to constitute some type of holocaust.

Zebra3 · 14-08-2013 11:46AM

biko wrote: »

Firstly the conflict between Israel and Palestinians

It's not a conflict, it's an occupation.

14-08-2013 12:07PM

Zebra3 wrote: »

It's not a conflict, it's an occupation.

You're being too picky, in terms of warring factions, the words conflict and occupation are hardly mutually exclusive.

Personally I'm extremely wary of any conflict/occupation being compared to the Nazi Holocaust.
Any criticism of Israel's treatment of Palestine and Palestinians should be just that, and any reference to the Jewish Holocaust of WW2 in relation to the seemingly interminable crises in the middle east is wrongheaded.

old hippy · 14-08-2013 12:37PM

Best At Doing Wheelies wrote: »

Poor fella here got banned the other day for mentioning the Holocaust. I think his post just goes to show how PC people can be, for the sake of being PC. He obviously didn't mean it, he was trying to make a point.

And what "point" was that, then?

wretcheddomain · 14-08-2013 12:50PM

I don't believe this thread happened either.

Zebra3 · 14-08-2013 01:10PM

9959 wrote: »

You're being too picky, in terms of warring factions, the words conflict and occupation are hardly mutually exclusive.

Occupation is a far more accurate description of what is really happening.

Hence most media outlets go for the self-censorship option of conflict.

Christ the Redeemer · 14-08-2013 01:21PM

biko wrote: »

It's hard to stay on the jewish holocaust in Germany when the current conflict is being dragged into it.

Firstly the conflict between Israel and Palestinians is one the most reported war in western media, besides Syria and Iraq. I'd doubt if you can find a single person in Europe that doesn't know about it and is somewhat up to date.
Other wars, particularly in Africa, are unfortunately not deemed as newsworthy, or perhaps everyone are as clued into the Nigerian and Sudanese conflicts? I just don't see their support groups picketing Shop Street, Galway in the weekends.
Pick your battles I suppose.

Secondly can the current I/P situation be correctly described as a "holocaust"?
The actual holocaust killed millions of people on an industrial scale and started with jewish shops marked for boycott and them banned from positions in government. In 1936, Jews were banned from all professional jobs.
On the other hand Israel has an Arab party in it's Dail (Knesset) and Pals work in various professional positions.

I'd be first to agree there is a discrepancy between Israeli and Pals in employment but it's hardly enough to constitute some type of holocaust.

Most reported on. Sure. Most inaccurately reported on? Definitely. I've no doubt over the coming years it's going to get worse too. When RTE start calling settlements "Jewish communities/neighbourhoods"(like the wholly sold out yanky media) you know we've crossed the line.

The BBC is already there. They crossed the line when they refused to show an ad for Aid to Palestinian children during the Gaza conflict.

Why is it frowned upon to question the holocaust?

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