Why is it frowned upon to question the holocaust?

woodoo

Surely any subject should be free to be researched, questioned, queried etc. Perhaps it would copper-fasten the current understanding of the holocaust beyond doubt. Or perhaps it may shed new light on exactly what happened. How many were really killed etc. Why be afraid of the truth.

bacon n eggs

Tsk, what you go and ask that for, tis Friday night man.

Links234

Because people who generally do happen to have extreme right wing politics or are crackpot nutcases, or both

Eramen

“To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize.”

― Voltaire


Cheers Voltaire, I'll keep it in mind :cool:

Giblet

Because the people who question it usually haven't got past the research part.

woodoo

Links234 wrote: »

Because people who generally do happen to have extreme right wing politics or are crackpot nutcases, or both

Or is that what they end up being labeled to shut them up?

Haelium

Links234 wrote: »

Because people who generally do happen to have extreme right wing politics or are crackpot nutcases, or both

People who question creationism generally happen to have extreme secular politics or are nihilists, or both.

Ad hominems prove nothing. It's an area where misinformation does tend to gather, but that doesn't mean we should have some dogma about revisionism.

Arcsin

Too many groups and individuals that question it have a clear agenda and they are almost all some strain of fascist.

That makes a lot of people defensive and stifles legitimate, objective research. That is not to say genuine research doesn't take place but rather it doesn't get the coverage that some racist spouting nonsense will get.

Mark Tapley

You are free to research the holocaust. Its when despite all the evidence to the contrary you decide it didn't happen , then you are a holocaust denier and a ****wit .

Gorilla Rising

I think you've the right to question anything, but before doing so (especially with something such as the holocaust) you should do some research and prepare proper findings to back up your argument (if in fact you are arguing against the fact it happened).

Clandestine

You can go to prison for questioning the holocaust in several countries.
The fact that a person can go to prison for expressing an opinion is disturbing to say the least.

HansHolzel

You are not allowed to shout "Fire" in a crowded theatre either.

Clandestine

HansHolzel wrote: »

You are not allowed to shout "Fire" in a crowded theatre either.

Not comparable. Thats disturbing the peace

Seachmall

Because there is overwhelming evidence that has been gathered not only by government departments but independent researchers.

While that doesn't guarantee the accuracy of that research it should be taken into consideration.

On the other hand the majority of holocaust "skeptics" tend have well known and widely publicised biases and alternative motives. That in itself is enough to throw any skepticism into disrepute by mere association.


Should an expert in the field present research for peer review and demonstrate that the holocaust was grossly exagerated then I would be willing to take that into consideration.


However, at the end of the day I am no expert in the field nor do I particularly care if the holocaust was exaggerated or not so I will, by necessity, rely on the scientific majority to inform me of what is likely and what isn't. I'm not qualified to throw doubt on any evidence presented on it's own merit, although by nature of being a rational human being I am qualified to throw doubt on the evidence presented depending on it's source and their intentions.

smcgiff

And the potato famine didn't happen either.

playadeldick

The Holocaust is the most researched and documented event in history.

Clandestine

Mark Tapley wrote: »

You are free to research the holocaust. Its when despite all the evidence to the contrary you decide it didn't happen , then you are a holocaust denier and a ****wit .

Most "Holocaust deniers" aren't denying that the holocaust occurred, rather they raise suspicions about certain "facts" of the holocaust e.g how many people actually died, were gas cambers used.

Paz-CCFC

HansHolzel wrote: »

You are not allowed to shout "Fire" in a crowded theatre either.

We're f*cked if there's a fire, in that case.

Links234

Haelium wrote: »

People who question creationism generally happen to have extreme secular politics or are nihilists, or both.

Ad hominems prove nothing. It's an area where misinformation does tend to gather, but that doesn't mean we should have some dogma about revisionism.

it's not exactly an ad hominem to point out that people with certain ideologies have certain biases that are being served by distorting facts and/or making false claims

or to cut the bull****, I don't think I know of many people who deny the holocaust that aren't neo-nazis

asdfg!

What's the difficulty? Hitler was very specific in Mein Kampf. The Jews were the blame for everything. His followers tried to execute his wishes because they agreed with him.

So they tried to eliminate the Jews and the Communists and the mentally ill and the homosexuals and the intellectuals and the gypsies and the Poles and the Slavs and anyone they felt didn't fit with their Aryan fantasy.

The only people afraid of the truth are those who still follow the Nazi line.

So who are you OP?

NuckingFacker

smcgiff wrote: »

And the potato famine didn't happen either.

Ohh, it did, but you don't hear about it every feckin day. I guess the wrong sort of people died in that one - not as media friendly.. If paddies ran the media, the famine would be reknowned. I'd also like to vote for a "Multiple thanks" button for eramens post.

Mickey H

HansHolzel wrote: »

You are not allowed to shout "Fire" in a crowded theatre either.

But it's fun to do that.

Damn Commies taking away all the fun.

HansHolzel

It's not disturbing the peace. It's inciting a stampede and causing mass deaths.

This serves as a classic example of the need for some restrictions on free speech, as does the concept of a defamation law.

playadeldick

NuckingFacker wrote: »

Ohh, it did, but you don't hear about it every feckin day. I guess the wrong sort of people died in that one - not as media friendly.. If paddies ran the media, the famine would be reknowned.

Ah the conspiracy nuts arrive. We've been expecting you.
Want some ketchup for that chip on your shoulder?

NuckingFacker

playadeldick wrote: »

Ah the conspiracy nuts arrive. We've been expecting you.
Want some ketchup for that chip on your shoulder?

I'm half jewish. Want a cloth for that egg on your face, Dick?

Clandestine

You guys should watch this:

playadeldick

NuckingFacker wrote: »

I'm half jewish. Want a cloth for that egg on your face?

I don't believe you. Are you claiming that the Jews run the world's media? Usual Nazi claptrap.

Norfolk Enchants

Clandestine wrote: »

You can go to prison for questioning the holocaust in several countries.
The fact that a person can go to prison for expressing an opinion is disturbing to say the least.

In Germany especially. The Turkish pm and Turkish politicians have publically denied the Armenian holocaust whilst on German soil. The Turkish have yet to admit that that was genocide, never mind apologise for it. If they said the same about the ww2 holocaust, they would be looking at serious gaol time.

playadeldick

LOL you know it's a conspiracy thread when the nutters start posting Youtube videos as their arguments. Go to bed, you're drunk.

Mark Tapley

Clandestine wrote: »

Most "Holocaust deniers" aren't denying that the holocaust occurred, rather they raise suspicions about certain "facts" of the holocaust e.g how many people actually died, were gas cambers used.

They still sound like ****wits to me. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_denial

Seachmall

Haelium wrote: »

Ad hominems prove nothing.

Ad hominems provide a measurement of reliability when presented with two or more pieces of contradictory evidence.

Dismissing a claim based entirely on the source without regarding the evidence is indeed a fallacy, however factoring in potential bias or lack of expertise into the equation when judging the veracity of evidence is absolutely essential to anyone who considers themselves to be a rational person.

woodoo

Clandestine wrote: »

You can go to prison for questioning the holocaust in several countries.
The fact that a person can go to prison for expressing an opinion is disturbing to say the least.

Germany is one of thiose places. And that is just the place that could really look into it. Not many people are denying that the holocaust/mass murder if jews took place. The question is how many and why and by what design?

Eramen

smcgiff wrote: »

And the potato famine didn't happen either.

I see what you're getting at, but it's not really the point. Why should any event of history or time-period be exempt from logical and academic review?

The answer is politics and ideology - this is why the Jewish holocaust isn't allowed to be researched or commented on further.

It has a religious aura about it today which most Westerners seem to buy into on the surface at least. This has led it to be treated as if it were the trademark standard for 'evil', the event which has earned an 'emotional monopoly' over all other bad things that have happened to all peoples of the world.

People at this point have been conditioned by movies, books, and tv to be overly-emotional when confronting the holocaust, this is the only reason it can't be reviewed or historical facts updated. People aren't using their brains on the subject and they obviously need to overcome their fears.

Remember that all peoples have had a 'holocuast' and terrible genocides committed against them at one time or another - and those events are all reviewed routinely. But they don't have power politics and state-ideologies backing them and that's the only difference.

NuckingFacker

playadeldick wrote: »

I don't believe you. Are you claiming that the Jews run the world's media? Usual Nazi claptrap.

Well, my family lost their lands, businesses and lives in WW2 - my fathers father was a Jewish Mayor of a Bavarian town, so you can respectfully kiss my half-Yiddish ass. On the other side, I do recognise that as a people, self-promotion is a given. Also, I'm so Jewish it's comical. And no, I'm not too bothered what you think of that or wether you believe me.:)

Ciaran_B

Eramen wrote: »

“To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize.”

― Voltaire


Cheers Voltaire, I'll keep it in mind :cool:

Voltaire didn't say that.

Seachmall

Clandestine wrote: »

You can go to prison for questioning the holocaust in several countries.

woodoo wrote: »

Germany is one of thiose places.

Norfolk Enchants wrote: »

In Germany especially.

It's worth mentioning that academic research into the holocaust is not illegal.

The spreading of propaganda under the guise of academia is.

Clandestine

Ciaran_B wrote: »

Voltaire didn't say that.

Doesn't make it any less true regardless.

playadeldick

Eramen wrote: »

....this is why the Jewish holocaust isn't allowed to be researched or commented on further.

Lies. I've already stated that it's the most researched and documented event in history. Who is stopping you researching it?

People at this point have been conditioned by movies, books, and tv to be overly-emotional when confronting the holocaust, this is the only reason it can't be reviewed. People aren't using their brains on the subject and they obviously need to overcome their fears.

Typical Neo-Nazi drivel. Speak for yourself, I do use my brain.

Links234

NuckingFacker wrote: »

[/B]
Well, my family lost their lands, businesses and lives in WW2 - my fathers father was a Jewish Mayor of a Bavarian town, so you can respectfully kiss my half-Yiddish ass. On the other side, I do recognise that as a people, self-promotion is a given. Also, I'm so Jewish it's comical. And no, I'm not too bothered what you think of that or wether you believe me.:)

Nobody who's Jewish could ever be an anti-semite!

not saying you are or aren't, just pointing out that just 'cos your Jewish doesn't mean you can't be..

Clandestine

playadeldick wrote: »

Typical Neo-Nazi drivel. Speak for yourself, I do use my brain.

So you lower to name calling when you cant refute him properly?

playadeldick

NuckingFacker wrote: »

[/B]
Well, my family lost their lands, businesses and lives in WW2 - my fathers father was a Jewish Mayor of a Bavarian town, so you can respectfully kiss my half-Yiddish ass. On the other side, I do recognise that as a people, self-promotion is a given. Also, I'm so Jewish it's comical. And no, I'm not too bothered what you think of that or wether you believe me.:)

Judaism is passed down via the maternal line. I thought a Jew would know this?

Eramen

playadeldick wrote: »

Lies. I've already stated that it's the most researched and documented event in history. Who is stopping you researching it?



Typical Neo-Nazi drivel. Speak for yourself, I do use my brain.

You've proven my point, discussion on the holocuast begins and you've already started the name-calling and mud-slinging. Nice.

playadeldick

Eramen wrote: »

You've proven my point, discussion on the holocuast begins and you've already started the name-calling and mud-slinging. Nice.

Do point out where I called you names, if you'd be so kind. I'd hate to hurt your feelings. Really, I would.

woodoo

NuckingFacker wrote: »

Ohh, it did, but you don't hear about it every feckin day. I guess the wrong sort of people died in that one - not as media friendly.. If paddies ran the media, the famine would be reknowned.

True, and how many people are aware of the death toll in china between 1958 and 1961?

NuckingFacker

playadeldick wrote: »

Lies. I've already stated that it's the most researched and documented event in history. Who is stopping you researching it?



Typical Neo-Nazi drivel. Speak for yourself, I do use my brain.

Well, here's a reeealll shitter. My old man was a "Nazi", mainly because they were about to shoot him as a Jew otherwise. I.E, he was a turncoat on his own people, really, but then who knows what we'd do if given the choice? He had his "great conversion" about five minutes after they shot all his friends and family and because he happened to be a baker who was baking the bread for the generals and screamed that if it burned, there would be hell to pay from their bosses. True story, probably doesn't need more dragons.

Literally, save by the ovens from the ovens. As his son, I'm about as anti-nazi as they come, seeing as how I saw the dreadful affects their actions had on him. But much like up the North, at some stage, you have to move on, forgive and forget.

woodoo

Clandestine wrote: »

You guys should watch this:

So Auschwitz itself in 1990 has revised the number of Jews killed there from 4.1 million down to 960,000. Thats pretty shocking.

NuckingFacker

playadeldick wrote: »

Judaism is passed down via the maternal line. I thought a Jew would know this?

Like I said, half. My father was a jew, my mother a catholic. I have a jewish name. My children have jewish names. My wife is catholic and Irish. My children are catholic, I'm non-denominational, at best. You are well named, Dick. Also, I hope that troll reference wasn't aimed at me. I'm no troll, old son.

playadeldick

NuckingFacker wrote: »

Well, here's a reeealll shitter. My old man was a "Nazi", mainly because they were about to shoot him as a Jew otherwise. I.E, he was a turncoat on his own people, really, but then who knows what we'd do if given the choice? He had his "great conversion" about five minutes after they shot all his friends and family and because he happened to be a baker who was baking the bread for the generals and screamed that if it burned, there would be hell to pay from their bosses. True story, probably doesn't need more dragons.

Literally, save by the ovens from the ovens. As his son, I'm about as anti-nazi as they come, seeing as how I saw the dreadful affects their actions had on him. But much like up the North, at some stage, you have to move on, forgive and forget.

I'll be generous and give that a 1/10.
I thought you said it was your "father's father" (ie. your grandfather) that had trouble with the Nazis in Germany during WWII?

NuckingFacker

playadeldick wrote: »

I'll be generous and give that a 1/10.
I thought you said it was your "father's father" (ie. your grandfather) that had trouble with the Nazis in Germany during WWII?

I tend to give it as it is, I only have one rule for me on the internet, and that is "never lie". I never lie, and I never lie IRL either. I feckin hate liars. My mum used to say a liar was worse than a thief as a thief only stole sometimes, a liar always lied. I don't lie, so take what I've written any way you like. I'm bowing out, I'll let the "experts" take over. In over 12,000 posts, on boards, as my old name and this one, I've never lied, just so's you know, Dick.

Mark Tapley

Ciaran_B wrote: »

Voltaire didn't say that.

He did say speaking of the Jews- "You have surpassed all nations in impertinent fables, in bad conduct and in barbarism. You deserve to be punished, for this is your destiny."

kowloon

Clandestine wrote: »

You can go to prison for questioning the holocaust in several countries.
The fact that a person can go to prison for expressing an opinion is disturbing to say the least.

I agree with you on this point. I think laws prohibiting Holocaust denial and Nazi symbols have contributed to the problem. Anyone should be allowed to question something, let them have their say.
I can make almost anything tomorrow and if it's ludicrous enough I'll be called on it, but ban me from saying it and there will be a few who will question why I needed to be stopped from saying it.
There are neo-Nazis that will point to the fact that the authorities are trying to 'suppress the truth'. A bunch of conspiracy nuts have been turned into a persecuted minority. What doesn't happen out in the open with free speech will only become more dangerous behind closed doors.

I'm a bit of a broken record on this topic, but it keeps coming up.