Why is it frowned upon to question the holocaust?

kingtiger

Nodin wrote: »

....not all, but many were yes.

so being sent to Gulag was just like prison in your eyes?

it wasn't a death sentence?

hhmmm I suppose the estimated 10 million deaths in the Gulag's where "incidental" too

kingtiger

Nodin wrote: »

Not all of them, as it would have been more economic to shoot them locally and be done with it..

labour was still needed, you just got shot if your when infirm or just too old

Nodin

kingtiger wrote: »

so being sent to Gulag was just like prison in your eyes?

it wasn't a death sentence?

It could be.

kingtiger wrote: »

hhmmm I suppose the estimated 10 million deaths in the Gulag's where "incidental" too

I've already stated that some were, yes.

Jonny7

kingtiger wrote: »

so being sent to Gulag was just like prison in your eyes?

it wasn't a death sentence?

hhmmm I suppose the estimated 10 million deaths in the Gulag's where "incidental" too

Different events carry different international significance and recognition for a variety of reasons.

For instance, we are much more likely to hear references to Tiannamen square rather than Mao's manmade famine which indirectly killed up to 40 million.

Seaneh

jank wrote: »

Em, most people don't like Israels actions in the Middle East but you will find many professional 'activists' solely concentrating their efforts on Israel and Israel alone, some go as far as comparing the treatment they dish to the Palestinians as equal to the Nazi's treatment to the Jews which you will agree is absurd.

On top of that many are strangely quiet on the treatment of Arab and Persian leaders towards their fellow country men and foreigners. Syria, Iran, Libya and Iraq of old. I have NEVER seen a protest on an Irish street condemning these regimes but a free Palestine protest is all but gauranteed. Left wing hypocrisy at its best.

This has nothing to do with anything I posted in the quoted post.

I pointed out that many Jewish scholars question and even condemn the use of the holocaust by Neo-Zionists and their friends as both a justification for Israel's actions and a stick to beat anyone who questions those actions or the justification for them.

snausages

I think because it lends credence to a dangerous cultural myth. A lot of these 'sceptics' will question the holocaust under the facade of informed historical inquiry, like these guys: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Institute_for_Historical_Review

I don't know why the laws are the way they are or what they're designed to protect. But I understand the necessity to draw a clear line between what constitutes 'revisionism' and anti-Semitic propaganda. The problem with engaging with guys like the IHR is that you're automatically giving them authority whether you mean it or not.

jank

Nodin wrote: »

...you missed the protest outside the Egyptian embassy, the demonstration against Turkish bombing of kurds.....?

.

How many protests have there been against the regime in Saudi or Iran? The Iraq or Libya of old before war broke out? Tell me has the socialist party or the ULA ever ever condemned the actions of these regimes before the Arab Spring?

The volume is clearly skewed one way against Israel. To prove it, just google the results you get with site:swp.ie

Israel (376) has more hits than Iran (176), Syria (194) or Saudi Arabia (66) and Libya (142). The great Satan itself (USA) has a whopping 5,010.

The above contain hits and references to the Arab Spring as this was a big deal. What would REALLY be interesting is to see the number of hits places like Syria and Egypt would get before the Arab Spring.. I imagine not many.

This does not condone Israel of course but you have to love the hypocrisy of the left. The don't really care about the average Arab, they just want to feel smug and point fingers at America.

Christ the Redeemer

Why is it frowned on to question any aspect of the Holocaust? because they have their sweet place as the only people on earth above legitimate criticism riding on the entire thing.

Do Certain elements in the Jewish community leverage the holocaust for their own personal gain? Absolutely. The fact that they do has led to an immense amount of defensive posturing about the Holocaust. You are Nazi if you even wonder how many Jews in camps died of Typhus rather than a gas chambers.

Read Norman Finkelstein's holocaust industry. There's also a good documentary called Defamation which explores how Israel basically brainwashes their children to believe that the entire world hates them. In one scene, an old man asks some little Jewish girls where they are from but the girls instantly start crying and screaming saying the man was calling them names because he hated Jews. This is why Israel has slid from a left wing largely socialist population to a so far right wing they make the John Birch society blush so rapidly.

This has contributed to a certain level of bitterness in the rest of the population. Adolph Hitler was Catholic, yet, the Muslims were made to suffer because of his crimes against their people. Throughout History the Christians have been the biggest source of hatred towards Jews, yet, since the end of WW2 there has been efforts to rewrite history to say that it was the Muslims who were their historic enemies. Forget that Muslims and Jews fled Spain together from the catholic church and that historically, Islam has provided synagogues for Jews to use actually built into their Mosques.

Nodin

jank wrote: »

How many protests have there been against the regime in Saudi or Iran? The Iraq or Libya of old before war broke out? Tell me has the socialist party or the ULA ever ever condemned the actions of these regimes before the Arab Spring?.

Libya was under massive sanctions for decades, as was/is Syria, Iran, North Korea, Burma (lifted too early IMO), Zimbabwe, Sudan etc and so on. Israel has been in violation of international law since 1969 and faces no sanctions regime whatsoever, at all.

Mike 1972

kingtiger wrote: »

the engineering of a famine in the Ukraine in the 30ies, which in all fairness was by far the worst atrocity of the 20th Century

Maos "great leap foward" made Stalin look like a boy scout.

Jonny7

Christ the Redeemer wrote: »

Why is it frowned on to question any aspect of the Holocaust? because they have their sweet place as the only people on earth above legitimate criticism riding on the entire thing.

I suggest questioning the 17 or so European countries that have made it illegal to varying extents

or were these countries coerced into it by "the Jews"?

Seaneh

Jonny7 wrote: »

I suggest questioning the 17 or so European countries that have made it illegal to varying extents

or were these countries coerced into it by "the Jews"?

Classic example of "white guilt" to be honest.

Jonny7

Seaneh wrote: »

Classic example of "white guilt" to be honest.

I agree, but if I wrote a post about blacks in the US milking racial sensitivity - I'd get called out for it.

Write one about the Jews milking their own near extermination as a race, I'll get thanked

Seaneh

Jonny7 wrote: »

I agree, but if I wrote a post about blacks in the US milking racial sensitivity - I'd get called out for it.

Write one about the Jews milking their own near extermination as a race, I'll get thanked

But SOME black people in America DO milk (and inflame) racial sensitivities for their own benefit i.e. comedians like Chris Rock, african supremacists and so on.

And SOME Jewish people DO use the Holocaust for their own benefit, i.e. fraudulent compensation claims against Switzerland by people claiming to be labour and concentration camp survivors ( which in turns leads to genuine survivors not being awarded monies they are entitled to. Finkelstein covers this in his book, "The Holocaust Industry") or AIPAC using it as emotional blackmail of Christian America as a way of lobbying the US government to fund Israel's military or Neo-Zionists who retort anyone who questions Israel's actions with shouts of "Never again" to shout people down when at the same tine Israel is inflicting their own version of the Warsaw on the Palestinians in the form of the Blockade of Gaza and continuing to try and ethnically cleanse the West Bank.

But if you made a blanket statement about Black people in general or Jewish people in general doing those things, anyone who thanks you for it is an idiot and you'd just be posting racist, ignorant, crap.

Bozo Skeleton

woodoo wrote: »

Surely any subject should be free to be researched, questioned, queried etc. Perhaps it would copper-fasten the current understanding of the holocaust beyond doubt. Or perhaps it may shed new light on exactly what happened. How many were really killed etc. Why be afraid of the truth.

Go visit Auschwitz dude. The holocaust, yeah it actually happened, and it was utterly horrific, in breaking news.

Jonny7

Seaneh wrote: »

But if you made a blanket statement about Black people in general or Jewish people in general doing those things, anyone who thanks you for it is an idiot and you'd just be posting racist, ignorant, crap.

I hear Israelis teach their kids that basically everyone in the world hates them

Centuries of persecution culminating in the attempted extermination of the race have left 17 odd European countries deciding (many recently) to make denial of the Jewish Holocaust illegal, bit of an affront to the principle of free speech, but perhaps they just decided to cut the crap because they had the foresight to know no one would ever challenge the number of Soviet POWs dead or Gypsies killed

Seaneh

Jonny7 wrote: »

I hear Israelis teach their kids that basically everyone in the world hates them

See even this is hyperbolic, its not an institutional thing to teach kids this, its not thought as part of a curriculum. But some Israeli citizens do instill a persecution complex in their kids. They don't just tell their kids that all Palestinians or Syrians or Lebanese people hate them and want them all dead, they say all Christians want them dead, all Arab Israelis want them dead, anyone who criticises Israel is an anti-Semite, and they can't trust anyone who isn't a Jew. Weirdly enough a lot of Israelis have some bizarre anti American thing going on where despite Obama pledging 30billion dollars in military and financial aid in the next decade and a bit they paint him as anti-israeli and pro Arab even though the overwhelming evidence is the opposite.

But these people are a minority, just a very fu(king vocal one.

Jonny7

Seaneh wrote: »

See even this is hyperbolic, its not an institutional thing to teach kids this, its not thought as part of a curriculum. But some Israeli citizens do instill a persecution complex in their kids. They don't just tell their kids that all Palestinians or Syrians or Lebanese people hate them and want them all dead, they say all Christians want them dead, all Arab Israelis want them dead, anyone who criticises Israel is an anti-Semite, and they can't trust anyone who isn't a Jew. Weirdly enough a lot of Israelis have some bizarre anti American thing going on where despite Obama pledging 30billion dollars in military and financial aid in the next decade and a bit they paint him as anti-israeli and pro Arab even though the overwhelming evidence is the opposite.

But these people are a minority, just a very fu(king vocal one.

Finished?

that's nothing I hear that they teach their kids to attack Palestinian children on sight. I saw it in a documentary and read about it in a book.

Seaneh

Jonny7 wrote: »

Finished?

that's nothing I hear that they teach their kids to attack Palestinian children on sight. I saw it in a documentary and read about it in a book.

Go spend some time in East Jerusalem and you'll see it for yourself.

Most Israeli's are fine.

Settlers are, generally, religious zealots who use their "chosen people" nonsense to dehumanise Palestinians (and African immigrants) and justify treating them as not so much second class citizens as cockroaches who should be exterminated.
Attacks by Jewish Israeli youth on Palestinians and Africans in Jerusalem and and even on Arab Israeli's and Africans in Tel Aviv are, sadly enough, very common and usually incited by community leaders.


But sure, you'll never learn these things from the comfort of your sofa in Ireland.

Dick Masterson

If a politician questions the Holocaust, then I think he should lose all creditability and even get kicked out of parliament/congress/whatever; however, punishing the Average Joes for Holocaust denial is P.C. fascism.

As for the Israel-Palestine debate, I'd support Palestine if they weren't Muslim because we all know if the Palestinians had their own country, they'll incorporate Islamic law in the their State law. I'm a proper liberal, unlike the many posers that consider themselves left-wing, and I just can't support a country that incorporates religious laws into their State law. I know Israel isn't the most secular place, but it's by far the lesser evil compared to savagery going on in the neighbouring countries. The Muslim world needs to do a lot of growing up and lefties need to stop being hypocrites by supporting religious fascists.

Jonny7

Seaneh wrote: »

Most Israeli's are fine.

yikes

Most Muslims are fine but..

Most people from Northern Ireland are fine but..

But sure, you'll never learn these things from the comfort of your sofa in Ireland.

because we don't want to learn how badly Lebanon or Kuwait or Egypt has treated Palestinian refugees, we just want bogeyman stories of what Israeli parents tell their kids at night and what better place than a thread on the Holocaust :rolleyes:

Anyway irony aside, they should just drop the laws in these countries, let the deniers write books and speak up. My earlier point still stands, the revisionists rarely challenge anything but the jewish figures, any historian worth their salt, with the wealth of evidence available, should easily debunk such claims

Seaneh

Jonny7 wrote: »

yikes

Most Muslims are fine but..

Most people from Northern Ireland are fine but..



because we don't want to learn how badly Lebanon or Kuwait or Egypt has treated Palestinian refugees, we just want bogeyman stories of what Israeli parents tell their kids at night and what better place than a thread on the Holocaust :rolleyes:

Anyway irony aside, they should just drop the laws in these countries, let the deniers write books and speak up. My earlier point still stands, the revisionists rarely challenge anything but the jewish figures, any historian worth their salt, with the wealth of evidence available, should easily debunk such claims

So rather than talk about the actual issue, shift the goal post?

The reason I (and people like Finkelstein and Morris) mention the treatment of Palestinians by successive Israeli government and by a very loud minority of Israelis who have completely undue sway over successive Israeli governments (they are the most vocal and the most funded and have the best lobbyists) when talking about the misuse of the holocaust by certain individuals and groups is because the ultimate justification used by these people IS the holocaust, they scream "never again" and accuse their opponents of anti-Semitism and launch massive smear campaigns against them using the suffering of 6million people in the most inhumane way imaginable as some sort of licence to do whatever the **** they want to the Palestinians.

Their misuse of the suffering of others in this was is just about the most disgusting way to tarnish the memories of the millions of people who died in those camps possible.

Professor Finkelstein deals with this idiocy rather well here:

Seaneh

Jonny7 wrote: »

Most Muslims are fine but..

Most people from Northern Ireland are fine but..

Yeah, basically.

Most PEOPLE are fine, but unfortunately, there are a lot of ***** in the world.


Nice effort there though, nearly got away with being totally disingenuous and implying some sort of racist agenda, which would be hilarious, frankly.

Fratoue

Because Khazarian Jews run the World and use the holocaust as an excuse to batter anyone who challenges them and their genocide of Palestinian people.The six million figure is clearly bull**** not possibly under any circumstances and why is the 40 million Russians who died during WW2 not considered a tragedy or spoken about half as much??? Why do Jewish people have a trademark on tragedy when they perpetrate it more than anyone else??:(

Ernst Zundel destroys the 6 million figure and any other Historian who have the balls to stand up to Jewish printing/funding tyranny that they are threatened all the time they will pull the plug on.

Plus the Rothschilds have the world media and 50% of all finance in the world in their arse pocket and they won't allow any dissent, they are your masters period and run the world economy of which they have on a yoyo string.

Fratoue

smcgiff wrote: »

And the potato famine didn't happen either.

Not in the way we are told so this quote is true, there was no famine, A starvation of Irish people by a zealous, brutal and sadistic British regime yes that happened. The potato story is so absurd I feel like slapping anyone who dares think it's true. You mean to tell me Irish people were so ignorant they couldn't eat other grain, fruit, vegetables, meat, seeds etc etc, and only relied solely on potatos???? Come on , talk about History serving your Masters!!!:(

Seaneh

Fratoue wrote: »

Because Khazarian Jews run the World and use the holocaust as an excuse to batter anyone who challenges them and their genocide of Palestinian people.The six million figure is clearly bull**** not possibly under any circumstances and why is the 40 million Russians who died during WW2 not considered a tragedy or spoken about half as much??? Why do Jewish people have a trademark on tragedy when they perpetrate it more than anyone else??:(

Ernst Zundel destroys the 6 million figure and any other Historian who have the balls to stand up to Jewish printing/funding tyranny that they are threatened all the time they will pull the plug on.

Plus the Rothschilds have the world media and 50% of all finance in the world in their arse pocket and they won't allow any dissent, they are your masters period and run the world economy of which they have on a yoyo string.

Wow... more CT nonsense than I've ever seen in one post AND you managed to fit Ernst Zündel* in there as some sort of credible source to back up your claims? Amazing.

I forsee a siteban in your future.


*Notorious anti-Semite, holocaust denier, UFO chaser, CT nut in general and all around neo-nazi piece of crap.

Fratoue

Seaneh wrote: »

Wow... more CT nonsense than I've ever seen in one post AND you managed to fit Ernst Zündel* in there as some sort of credible source to back up your claims? Amazing.

I forsee a siteban in your future.


*Notorious anti-Semite, holocaust denier, UFO chaser, CT nut in general and all around neo-nazi piece of crap.

Oh please seriously get a life, debate the topics and stop babbling on about nutcase, UFO chaser this and that that nonsense balls is so tired it's going to die of exhaustion. Zundel is an anti-semite yet invites Jewish journalists all the time into his home and allows them to film him in it while occasionally stopping to get them a drink??? Also clearly you don't understand the origins of the term Semite, it comes from Semetic land and thus Arabs predominantly would be Semites but that would go over the head of someone like you who believes the propagandized nonsense he's spoon fed.

Holocasust denier is a stupid term if ANYONE debates the detail they are labelled this absurd term that immediately ends any debate; and people think the Nazi's had a good propaganda machine?? Schoolboys! Terms like this are an affront to free speech the likes of which Hitler could only dream about.

OK if you don't like Zundel here's a Jewish man who doesn't believe the Holocaust story.He's one of many brave Jewish people who dispute the holocaust

Suppose he's an anti-semite too:rolleyes:

Seaneh

Fratoue wrote: »

Oh please seriously get a life, debate the topics and stop babbling on about nutcase, UFO chaser this and that that nonsense balls is so tired it's going to die of exhaustion. Zundel is an anti-semite yet invites Jewish journalists all the time into his home and allows them to film him in it while occasionally stopping to get them a drink??? Also clearly you don't understand the origins of the term Semite, it comes from Semetic land and thus Arabs predominantly would be Semites but that would go over the head of someone like you who believes the propagandized nonsense he's spoon fed.

Holocasust denier is a stupid term if ANYONE debates the detail they are labelled this absurd term that immediately ends any debate; and people think the Nazi's had a good propaganda machine?? Schoolboys! Terms like this are an affront to free speech the likes of which Hitler could only dream about.

OK if you don't like Zundel here's a Jewish man who doesn't believe the Holocaust story.He's one of many brave Jewish people who dispute the holocaust

Suppose he's an anti-semite too:rolleyes:

Ah yes, David Cole, a man with no education as a historian (and no university education at all) who, besides being outed last year after changing his identity to David Stein and producing low end, uninspired, conventional Holocaust documentaries for the last 15 years, hasnt been heard of since 1998 has been torn to shreds by every credible historian he ever debated?

Another stellar source there.

I cannot believe you are trying to claim that Ernst Zündel isn't an neo-nazi by the way. He has been publishing Neo-Nazi texts since the 60s and is an adamant anti-semite.

Seaneh

Dick Masterson wrote: »

lefties need to stop being hypocrites by supporting religious fascists.

And yet you support Apartheid in The West Bank and the Blockade of Gaza by a country with wide spread institutional racism from Arab citizens having the word "Arab" printed on their ID cards to differentiate them from Jewish Israeli's to the forced sterilisation of Ethiopian Jewish immigrants?

Some people do indeed need to stop being hypocrites and supporting religious fascists who have been in breech of international Law 5 decades.

Your "reasons" for not supporting the creation of a Palestinian state are little more than ignorance and borderline racism.

The idea that people be denied self determination because you don't agree with their choice of religion or politics is pretty much as fascist as it gets, funnily enough.

jank

Nodin wrote: »

Libya was under massive sanctions for decades, as was/is Syria, Iran, North Korea, Burma (lifted too early IMO), Zimbabwe, Sudan etc and so on. Israel has been in violation of international law since 1969 and faces no sanctions regime whatsoever, at all.

More whataboutery I am afraid. How many protests have been orgainsed by left wing groups against the regime in North Korea or Cuba?

Again the hits from site:swp.ie tells its own story. North Korea (10), Burma(1), Cuba (27) and Zimbabwe(9). Irish socialists seem to be obbsesed about the topic of Israel and the US as if they embody all that is evil and wrong in the world. Yet, dont really give a damm about the average Arab, North Korean or Cuban that lives in some of the worlds most oppressed and poorest states.

The likes of Richie Boyd Barret and the Irish anti-war movement are a disgrace to the traditional anti-war movement.