Why is it frowned upon to question the holocaust?

Norfolk Enchants

Nodin wrote: »

The figure of four million was placed up there by the communist regime. Few took it seriously and when the communists went, so did the plaque.

But six million figure remained. Before the plaque, while the plaque was up and after it was taken down.

Nodin

Norfolk Enchants wrote: »

But six million figure remained. Before the plaque, while the plaque was up and after it was taken down.

.....people didn't add up the numbers written on various plaques to get to six million. The figure written on the Auschwitz one was post-war propaganda by the communist regime. It has nothing to do with the overall figure put forward by scholars and never had.

No Pants

Seachmall wrote: »

Wiki tells me that The Armenian Genocide (note: "The" Armenian Genocide) was referred to as "The Holocaust" before the Nazis came along.

I know that Turkey was never happy to hear it mentioned, but it seems disrespectful to downgrade an event in such a manner.

HansHolzel

Anyone questioning the death toll at Auschwitz should look up what Hoess voluntarily told his British interrogators, after they guessed a wrong figure.

Wibbs

HansHolzel wrote: »

Anyone questioning the death toll at Auschwitz should look up what Hoess voluntarily told his British interrogators, after they guessed a wrong figure.

Well yes and no. Hoess' testimony was hardly voluntary/"let's clear the slate for the sake of my soul" stuff. He was beaten, kept awake for days, his immediate family were threatened with death etc. Basically he was tortured for his account. Now does his account tally with other evidence? Yep a helluva lot of it does and that's a good thing, but he's not the given some seem to think, certainly not on many of the details.

Like I said earlier for me the real deal is the obvious. If you have 20 people in a room and the lights go out and when the lights go back on 5 are missing, no amount of back and forth debate/ballsology can deny the fact of those missing 5 and that for me is where the truth of this lays. Before the Nazis, X amount of Jews, Gypsies and other "undesirables", after the war X - Y of same. The - is the crime and a crime plain to see and the Y are those murdered or left to die. No hyperbole on either side can deny them.

IMH it's a crying fcuking shame that hyperbole on any "side" exists. Whether that be deniers in one corner saying it never happened, or never happened by degrees. The oh well it was only a million. Fúck off. If it was 10, or 100, or 10 million it was too much when the first fell just for being different. Or the other side whipping itself up oft for political reasons and even victim status on an industrial level, I say fúck off to them too. Both denigrate the buried bones and ashes of real people, real people with names called inthe street and real lives and real hopes and ordinary dreams like all of us. You wanna push an agenda on the deaths of many many people? I don't care if you're a Zionist or a Nazi in waiting, I say fúck right off.


THis stuff gets to me mostly because a rellie of mine was involved in the liberation of a camp. When I say involved he just happened to be there, no heroics or importance attached. Just another passerby in the background of history. He hated Germans for the rest of his life. I had a convo with him in my 20's and teased this hate out. His answer really struck me. He hated "Germans" as a focus, a distanced one, a boogieman. He told me he knew it was so wrong, just like hating any group is, but he had to focus on that, because what he realised was that we are all but a cold hungry week away from commiting "evil" and it doesn't even require a cold hungry week to get there and it was easier to reconcile that by saying "oh those X bastards would do that, but I/we wouldn't". That made him sleep easier, but he was also cursed with knowing why.

I can guarantee this; that if you/us the folks of Boards.ie were around in that society very few, scarily few would cry a simple "no". If you start decrying that? A couple of generations ago your people and my people stood upright and silent while children were being abused. Today we're all "Catholic church? Ha! the Pricks!" yet I grew up in the latter of that and saw quite a different story.

IMHO the best lesson we can take from the Shoah is that you, me, we could do it again, whether we be Gentile or Jew, civilised or barbarian. But heay we'd all be following orders wouldn't we, or getting on with our own shít and ignoring the crimes around us? So long as it's not my problem Ted. So long as it's not inconvenient. A million German men never came home after the war ended. That's inconvenient too, but hey they were the evil ones so that's OK? Or is it..?


My take such as it is? The key for not being an evil bastard is ironically the same as ending up as an evil bastard; don't fit in, don't go with the crowd. If there is a consensus always question it. The crowd, the mob as many Roman minds noted is too easily swayed, usually by laziness and the deep need to fit in.

HansHolzel

So what do you think of Israeli t-shirts that advocate shooting pregnant Palestinians ("2 for 1")?
It's rather like the guy Wiesenthal later caught for sticking a pistol in one prisoner's mouth and making another prisoner stand back to back with him, isn't it?

Mark Tapley

Wibbs wrote: »

we are all but a cold hungry week away from commiting "evil" .

There was a post in the thread - The awkward moment when you punch a scumbag and he doesn't get back up - that made me wonder how far away we really are.

John.Icy says - "For Christ sake. I hate scumbags. That blonde girl roaring at the end, someone please find her an euthanize it before it reproduces.
However controversial, this is why every police man/woman needs a gun at all times. Pull **** like that video, and a bullet. Who cares if they die. They bring nothing to society."

These kind of posts are seen frequently on boards although this one stands out to me. There is often a dehumanising aspect to them , calling the woman "it" or referring to people as vermin or scumbags.

Norfolk Enchants

Mark Tapley wrote: »

There was a post in the thread - The awkward moment when you punch a scumbag and he doesn't get back up - that made me wonder how far away we really are.

John.Icy says - "For Christ sake. I hate scumbags. That blonde girl roaring at the end, someone please find her an euthanize it before it reproduces.
However controversial, this is why every police man/woman needs a gun at all times. Pull **** like that video, and a bullet. Who cares if they die. They bring nothing to society."

These kind of posts are seen frequently on boards although this one stands out to me. There is often a dehumanising aspect to them , calling the woman "it" or referring to people as vermin or scumbags.

Probably best that you give the 'should we sterilise scumbags' thread a miss so.

Zebra3

Wibbs wrote: »

Certainly, but going on that basis we'll have to throw out every single large civilisation as uncultured and evil. There go the Greeks, there go the Babylonians, the Chin, the Romans...

Wibbs, you're one of the smarter posters on here, but you're comparing "civilisations" from thousands of years ago with "modern" empires and not giving evidence that those ancient so-called civilisations carried out ethnic cleansing and genocide like the German, Spanish, British, Portuguese, French, Russian empires of the last 200 years or so have done.

Mark Tapley

Norfolk Enchants wrote: »

Probably best that you give the 'should we sterilise scumbags' thread a miss so.

Back so soon weren't you banned for being a racist.

Wibbs

HansHolzel wrote: »

So what do you think of Israeli t-shirts that advocate shooting pregnant Palestinians ("2 for 1")?

Repugnantly ironic.

Toby Take a Bow

Norfolk Enchants wrote: »

But the Germans are taught the ins and outs of their role in ww2, warts and all, and they are deeply ashamed. No nationalistic tinge, just heres what happened, we fcuked up and thats that. I respect them for it.

The Japanese, Turks and many other nationalities could take a leaf out of their book imho.

I think some of that German guilt, present in people born in (say) the 70s, 80s, 90s or whenever is ridiculous. They should have the same amount of guilt as I have regarding the Holocaust. Teaching about everything that happened is essential, of course, but it's the guilt that I find dangerous.

Having said that, there is one German I know who has absolutely none of the guilt, will happily talk about Nazism and WWII but the 'guilt' for this person resides with the grandparents.

desertcircus

I'm not sure there's any legal barrier to formal historical research on the Holocaust. There are laws against making repulsive claims about deliberately inflated figures, or claiming there was no policy of extermination, but it would be extremely unlikely for formal research to trigger a criminal prosecution. Why is there so little formal research? Because there's so shockingly little to be learned from analysis of the exact number of deaths or the precise methodology of murder that someone wanting to conduct research into it immediately outs themselves as suspect; nobody seeking to produce original and valuable research would have the slightest interest in it. Establishing that the number was 5.4 million rather than six, or that shootings were used rather than gassings, is of virtually no value in terms of the meaning, the effects, the legacy or the origin of the Holocaust, so why would a serious historian choose that as his or her field of research? It's a huge red flag; anyone who really wants to investigate the Holocaust from that perspective is effectively admitting that they have no interest in materially improving the stock of human knowledge and instead wants to pursue a theory that carries strong flavours of racial hatred and anti-Semitism.

cloud493

Because its fairly undeniable? You had not only the witness accounts of the poor people who were the victims, the allied soldiers who liberated the concentration camps, the reports that filtered back to London and Washington from occupied europe, reports from the people in charge of the camps after the war, admin accounts of it... pretty hard to deny.

Jonny7

Eisenhower had to foresight to know people would question the Holocaust, so he gave order to document it as fully as possible.

That hasn't stopped deniers stepping in. Across the Middle East education on the Holocaust is fairly low, surprisingly high percentages in certain countries simply don't believe it happened (including more than a few in the leadership)

Recently a collection of Arab leaders actually visited Auschwitz in an attempt to correct the skewed view somewhat.

Often among deniers only the Jewish figures are challenged, rarely the equally high numbers of gypsies, homosexuals, Soviet POWs, minorities who were killed by the Nazi regime.

Jonny7

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

I personally reckon it's more likely that people in concentration camps were used as slave labour until they died from overwork, malnutrition, disease, etc. I mean if you think about it, why kill six million people directly when you could be using them to augment your military-industrial complex instead? Six million people could build an absolute f*ckload of artillery which would otherwise probably bankrupt the country, so for me the idea of directly executing all those people instead of exploiting them has always seemed a bit bizarre.

The policy was extermination. Later in the war, they introduced more forced labour. It was used extensively, but to varying degrees of success, inmates used to piss on the wiring mechanisms of V2 rockets for instance.

Actually they killed approx 11 million people directly and indirectly.

They also used people for live human experimentation, much of what we know today about the effects of gas, cold, explosives, etc on the human body come from the Nazis (and also Japanese) A lot of it was so pointless and extreme, injecting petrol in the hearts of live children for example, that many have a hard time grasping it actually happened.

old hippy

Mark Tapley wrote: »

There was a post in the thread - The awkward moment when you punch a scumbag and he doesn't get back up - that made me wonder how far away we really are.

John.Icy says - "For Christ sake. I hate scumbags. That blonde girl roaring at the end, someone please find her an euthanize it before it reproduces.
However controversial, this is why every police man/woman needs a gun at all times. Pull **** like that video, and a bullet. Who cares if they die. They bring nothing to society."

These kind of posts are seen frequently on boards although this one stands out to me. There is often a dehumanising aspect to them , calling the woman "it" or referring to people as vermin or scumbags.

Nail on the head. And I'm pretty sure some of the posters on those sort of threads aren't joking. They talk about "scumbags" ironically believing that advocating sterilising an entire swathe of people is somehow progress and elightenment

goose2005

Mark Tapley wrote: »

He did say speaking of the Jews- "You have surpassed all nations in impertinent fables, in bad conduct and in barbarism. You deserve to be punished, for this is your destiny."

Am I the only one who heard this in the Star Wars Emperor's voice?

Capt'n Midnight

Clandestine wrote: »

Most "Holocaust deniers" aren't denying that the holocaust occurred, rather they raise suspicions about certain "facts" of the holocaust e.g how many people actually died, were gas cambers used.

Considering that most people weren't killed in the gas chambers it wouldn't change the fundamental nature of what was done.

Very very roughly the victims included
3 million Jewish Poles
3 million non-Polish Jews
3 million non-Jewish Poles
3 million who were neither Jewish nor Polish


Nearly 3 million Russian prisoners of war were killed by January 1942. Not even the Holocaust had so many deaths in the same timescale. No gas chambers, no ovens. Such things aren't needed for genocide.

The Einsatzgruppen didn't use gas chambers or ovens either.

The German genocide of the Herero shortly before WWI also shows that it was all plausible.

Capt'n Midnight

woodoo wrote: »

True, and how many people are aware of the death toll in china between 1958 and 1961?

how many are aware of the deaths there between 1937 and 1945

keeponhurling wrote: »

Actually I don't think this is correct, consecutive Japanese government officials have visited China and apologized.

humberklog wrote: »

You're wrong, they have apologised.

All you have to do is Google Apologies Japan and you'll get a very well listed wiki index of them.

What do Japanese school books say about what happened in Japan ?

Some officials have used the apologise words. But the veterans still wear their uniforms and attend celebrations in temples.

This says it all
Japanese PM denies wartime 'comfort women' were forced nevermind up to 23 million deaths.

ElvisChrist6

Clandestine wrote: »

You can go to prison for questioning the holocaust in several countries.
The fact that a person can go to prison for expressing an opinion is disturbing to say the least.

I know someone has probably already said it, but...
Appropriate sig is appropriate

SafeSurfer

playadeldick wrote: »

The Holocaust is the most researched and documented event in history.

Absolute Bollix.

old hippy

SafeSurfer wrote: »

Absolute Bollix.

Really?

Potatoeman

Jonny7 wrote: »

Eisenhower had to foresight to know people would question the Holocaust, so he gave order to document it as fully as possible.

That hasn't stopped deniers stepping in. Across the Middle East education on the Holocaust is fairly low, surprisingly high percentages in certain countries simply don't believe it happened (including more than a few in the leadership)

Recently a collection of Arab leaders actually visited Auschwitz in an attempt to correct the skewed view somewhat.

Often among deniers only the Jewish figures are challenged, rarely the equally high numbers of gypsies, homosexuals, Soviet POWs, minorities who were killed by the Nazi regime.

Thats common in most countries. Look at how the British teach about their colonial past in their schools.

Grand Moff Tarkin

The Russian people had a higher death count than the Jewish people and there is not nearly half the drama made out of it.

Capt'n Midnight

Grand Moff Tarkin wrote: »

The Russian people had a higher death count than the Jewish people and there is not nearly half the drama made out of it.

Same with Oradour-sur-Glane that French village were all 642 people were massacred.

http://www.belarus.by/en/travel/belarus-life/khatyn
In Khatyn in Belarus they have a cemetery with 186 graves.

One for each village wiped out and never rebuilt.

During the war 1/4 of the population of Belarus died. 2.23 million


The war in the west was a picnic compared to what was happened in the east. And there are no shortage of evidence that millions were killed.

Random factoid
80% of Soviet males born in 1923 didn't survive World War 2

350,000 Germans went to Stalingrad, 35,000 were flown out, usually wounded. Barely 5,000 survived the Russian POW camps and the higher your rank the better your chances.
Survival rates for the Hiwi's would have been worse (Russians working for the Gerrmans)

AudreyHepburn

woodoo wrote: »

Surely any subject should be free to be researched, questioned, queried etc. Perhaps it would copper-fasten the current understanding of the holocaust beyond doubt. Or perhaps it may shed new light on exactly what happened. How many were really killed etc. Why be afraid of the truth.

Researching it isn't the problem though. No-one would question your right to do that.

The problem is that when people begin to question what happened it can seem as if they are either trying to play it down, by for example querying the exact numbers killed or methods used, or they want to out right deny it happened.

Questioning in itself is no bad thing, but in the majority of cases it's not merely about questions, as I said above. These people usually have an agenda and it is usually downplay or denial.

mariaalice

I always thought the reason why the holocaust was different that any other mass slaughter was because it was the first industrial mass killing of people as opposed to famines etc, plus the sheer almost banal evil of using gas chambers because it was quicker and easier and cheaper that shouting people!

SafeSurfer

old hippy wrote: »

Really?

Links?

old hippy

SafeSurfer wrote: »

Links?

Yes, that was the point of my post :rolleyes: