Why is it frowned upon to question the holocaust?

dr.bollocko

Fratoue banned.

Tread softly folks.

biko

It's interesting how many people have opinions on whether the Holocaust happened or not, or to what extent. When I grew up it was an accepted fact.
Revisionists like David Irving and David Duke have been working hard the last 30 years to cast doubt upon and rewrite history.

From what I have seen personally in Auschwitz Birkenau and read I believe the Holocaust happened and also to the extent generally accepted.
I wonder how many doubters here have even made it out from the Conspiracy forum and into a actual Nazi camp.

biko

Is there a single Irish lobby group that is supporting the millions of Pals in camps in Jordan, Lebanon, Syria, etc?
Whereas obesity is an actual problem in Gaza these people are not given enough food by their Arab brethren. They are not given a chance for education or jobs.
Where is the Irish outrage and commitment to them?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cf21QqvHauw

Grayson

biko wrote: »

It's interesting how many people have opinions on whether the Holocaust happened or not, or to what extent. When I grew up it was an accepted fact.
Revisionists like David Irving and David Duke have been working hard the last 30 years to cast doubt upon and rewrite history.

From what I have seen personally in Auschwitz Birkenau and read I believe the Holocaust happened and also to the extent generally accepted.
I wonder how many doubters here have even made it out from the Conspiracy forum and into a actual Nazi camp.

I think I posted this months ago further back in the thread, but I think it's ok to question the historical accuracy. Now don't mistake what I'm saying. The holocaust happened. I'm not denying that. No historian would deny it. But we do have a lot of areas that are still hazy. So many records were destroyed. Historians still argue and investigate the details. Unfortunately the details can be 4 million people killed or 6 million people killed. Who did what and when. how complicit were certain members of the jewish community (there were some absolute cnuts who helped the nazi's for their own gain). Should the jews have organised a resistance (Hannah Arendt mentions in the trail of Eichmann that a very high percentage of the jews that tried to flee/fight managed to survive as opposed to a very small percentage of those that acquiesced to the will of the authorities).

So many of those are unpleasant questions, but they are valid questions for historians to ask. It's not denying that one of the most horrible crimes ever committed by humans occurred, it's just probing for more details.

Grayson

jank wrote: »

More whataboutery I am afraid. How many protests have been orgainsed by left wing groups against the regime in North Korea or Cuba?

Again the hits from site:swp.ie tells its own story. North Korea (10), Burma(1), Cuba (27) and Zimbabwe(9). Irish socialists seem to be obbsesed about the topic of Israel and the US as if they embody all that is evil and wrong in the world. Yet, dont really give a damm about the average Arab, North Korean or Cuban that lives in some of the worlds most oppressed and poorest states.

The likes of Richie Boyd Barret and the Irish anti-war movement are a disgrace to the traditional anti-war movement.

To be fair, Cuba is different to Israel/Palestine. there's no political freedom, but the people there have education/healthcare etc.. They can travel more than 5 miles without encountering a wall they can't cross and they don't have random foreigners grabbing a load of land, building houses and setting up armed camps in the middle of their communities. Cuba has many, many faults but it's nowhere near as bad as Palestine.

And it's pretty poor to state that nearly all Irish socialists (most irish people are socialists. They believe in state run healthcare, education etc...) don't care about people, especially Arabs.

Seaneh

biko wrote: »

Is there a single Irish lobby group that is supporting the millions of Pals in camps in Jordan, Lebanon, Syria, etc?
Whereas obesity is an actual problem in Gaza these people are not given enough food by their Arab brethren. They are not given a chance for education or jobs.
Where is the Irish outrage and commitment to them?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cf21QqvHauw

If they were granted their basic human rights in the right of return this wouldn't be an issue, would it?

Also, trying to make out that there is an abundance of food I. Gaza is s massive crock of shut when the official Israeli line is to give them just enough so they don't starve.

All of the problems in Palestinian refugee camps can be brought back the fact that they are denied the right of return.

Christ the Redeemer

biko wrote: »

It's interesting how many people have opinions on whether the Holocaust happened or not, or to what extent. When I grew up it was an accepted fact.
Revisionists like David Irving and David Duke have been working hard the last 30 years to cast doubt upon and rewrite history.

From what I have seen personally in Auschwitz Birkenau and read I believe the Holocaust happened and also to the extent generally accepted.
I wonder how many doubters here have even made it out from the Conspiracy forum and into a actual Nazi camp.

No one serious doubts it actually happened.

Nodin

jank wrote: »

More whataboutery I am afraid. How many protests have been orgainsed by left wing groups against the regime in North Korea or Cuba?

.............

It's logic. Why would you bother protesting about regimes the international community has taken action against?

Nodin

biko wrote: »

Is there a single Irish lobby group that is supporting the millions of Pals in camps in Jordan, Lebanon, Syria, etc?
Whereas obesity is an actual problem in Gaza these people are not given enough food by their Arab brethren. They are not given a chance for education or jobs.
Where is the Irish outrage and commitment to them?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cf21QqvHauw

...a video with all the credibility of a boko haram lecture on Judaism.

jank

Nodin wrote: »

It's logic. Why would you bother protesting about regimes the international community has taken action against?

Tell me what action has been taken by the international community against the USA? Or even Saudi Arabia or Egypt before the Arab Spring?
Logic my arse, you are trying to excuse blatant hypocrisy by these groups.

The Irish anti-war movement seems more concerned about whats going on in Shannon Airport that what is happening in countries where.. you know actual war is taking place!

Nodin

jank wrote: »

Tell me what action has been taken by the international community against the USA? Or even Saudi Arabia or Egypt before the Arab Spring?

Saudi is a US ally as is Egypt. There were and are protests occasionally against these countries, but as they are not in breach of international law, they can hardly be put on the same level as Israel, whatever one thinks of their regimes. You know what Israel is doing, I trust?

Nodin

jank wrote: »

Tell me what action has been taken by the international community against the USA?

The UN general assembly passed a motion against the US in regards to its illegal war against Nicaragua for millions in war reparations. The US, having a UNSC veto, did the obvious when it came before the security council. It is impossible to launch UN sanctions against any permanent member of the UNSC.

jank

Grayson wrote: »

And it's pretty poor to state that nearly all Irish socialists (most irish people are socialists. They believe in state run healthcare, education etc...) don't care about people, especially Arabs.

Thats kind of my point. The far left of this country has taken it upon itself to 'speak' for the people that they think they represent, but they are just a bunch of vocal wanna-be communist anti-American radicals.

Most people in Ireland do care about whats happening in the world especially in the poorer and more volatile regions but if you go onto the SWP or Irish anti-war facebook/twitter pages you will see not one message about the poor in war torn Sudan or Africa or other regions where there is terrible suffering going on daily unless of course the West are involved.

You will hear a lot about NATO, Drones, Manning, Shannon, Israel, USA, Shannon (again), USA and so on. If they want to be so colour blind and biased that is fine but don't hind behind the mask that you actually care about these people in war torn countries.

They are using these people to further their agenda that the West (America) is fundamentally flawed and evil because they embrace the capitalist and free market economic model.

I have gone back two years on the following twitter account.
https://twitter.com/IrishAntiWar and there has not been ONE comment on the war in Syria. Plane spotting in Shannon gets some tweets but I suppose using chemical weapons on your own people in an actual war is something they would rather not turn their attention to.
Their facebook page is similar in their bias e.g. this was from a few days ago.
https://www.facebook.com/IrishAntiWar/posts/525438814177574

The SWP's own proxy anti war group, has similar bias.
https://twitter.com/IrishAntiWarMvt
https://www.facebook.com/groups/25608030879/
Their motto on their frontpage is

"U.S. Military Out Of Shannon.

Freedom for Palestine

Don't attack Iran"

Lovely!

Nodin

I seem to have stumbled on the "I hate the SWP" thread by mistake.....

jank

Nodin wrote: »

Saudi is a US ally as is Egypt. There were and are protests occasionally against these countries, but as they are not in breach of international law, they can hardly be put on the same level as Israel, whatever one thinks of their regimes. You know what Israel is doing, I trust?

When was there ever a protest against Saudi Arabia? I am curious.

Russia was in breach of international law when it invaded Georgia in 2008. Not much of a peep from RBB or his left wing comrades.....

Christ the Redeemer

jank wrote: »

When was there ever a protest against Saudi Arabia? I am curious.

Russia was in breach of international law when it invaded Georgia in 2008. Not much of a peep from RBB or his left wing comrades.....

You mean the war Georgia started by attacking South Ossetia?

Nodin

jank wrote: »

When was there ever a protest against Saudi Arabia? I am curious.

Russia was in breach of international law when it invaded Georgia in 2008. Not much of a peep from RBB or his left wing comrades.....

http://irishtimes.newspaperdirect.com/epaper/viewer.aspx

http://youtu.be/i1DjBFY_etM

http://youtu.be/sqpTevuKOJA

http://irishtimes.newspaperdirect.com/epaper/viewer.aspx

You'll find Georgia fucked up there. In addition, you might explain why you keep bringing up SWP and RBB - are they posting here?

Seaneh

Also, why are Jank and Biko so determined to pull this thread off topic?

jank

Nodin wrote: »

http://irishtimes.newspaperdirect.com/epaper/viewer.aspx

http://youtu.be/i1DjBFY_etM

http://youtu.be/sqpTevuKOJA

http://irishtimes.newspaperdirect.com/epaper/viewer.aspx

You'll find Georgia fucked up there. In addition, you might explain why you keep bringing up SWP and RBB - are they posting here?

Front Line Defenders != SWP or Anti War Movement.

Care to comment directly on the hypocrisy shown by that party?

biko

Seaneh wrote: »

Also, why are Jank and Biko so determined to pull this thread off topic?

Nah man, I have two posts before this one.
One about the holocaust and one about Is/Pal conflict.
The second was merely my view on the side topic of Israel/Palestine conflict, a side topic that started two months ago.
You yourself have been posting about the Palestinian plight in this very thread before I posted on it once...

I can return to the Holocaust topic if you can. It would be nice with a thread that touches upon Jews without the Pals being dragged into it.

Seaneh

biko wrote: »

Nah man, I have two posts before this one.
One about the holocaust and one about Is/Pal conflict.
The second was merely my view on the side topic of Israel/Palestine conflict, a side topic that started two months ago.
You yourself have been posting about the Palestinian plight in this very thread before I posted on it once...

I can return to the Holocaust topic if you can. It would be nice with a thread that touches upon Jews without the Pals being dragged into it.

My posts, previous to yours, have been about how certain groups in Israel and the US use the holocaust to their advantage and as a stick to beat their detractors with. Which makes them entirely relevant to the thread.

Your post was just the usual whataboutary nonsense that people who support Israel post any time the actions or policies of Israel are called into question.

Jank has gone full blown "I hate the SWP" and is now on some rant about how everyone's a hypocrit and we are all "lefty idiots".


Your post wasn't in any way relevant to the topic, it was just a chance to shoehorn in apologist crap.

Seaneh

jank wrote: »

Front Line Defenders != SWP or Anti War Movement.

Care to comment directly on the hypocrisy shown by that party?

Why should he, if he's not in any way involved with the party?

Do you care to comment directly on the hypocrisy shown by Enda Kenny on the housing tax question or the hypocrisy shown by Gordan Ramsey in his continued visits to burger king restaurants while ranting about **** food in the media?

No? I didn't think so, they have no relevance to this bloody thread.

biko

Hm, I don't know how to proceed now because whatever I say is probably outside of your view of the topic of the thread


But to get back to the Holocaust, it will be very interesting to see what happens when the last living Holocaust survivor has died and there are no eye witnesses left at all.

Seaneh

biko wrote: »

But to get back to the Holocaust, it will be very interesting to see what happens when the last living Holocaust survivor has died and there are no eye witnesses left at all.

Luckily people like Avi Shlaim (worlds leading holocaust scholar) have done a really through job of tracking down as many survivors as possible and getting as much of their accounts of their lives as they could and have compiled a very full and almost complete picture of the events leading up to and during the war.

Nodin

jank wrote: »

Front Line Defenders != SWP or Anti War Movement.

Care to comment directly on the hypocrisy shown by that party?

Why would I? I know little about either, nor have I ever spoken on their behalf on these boards. You asked for protests, I showed four.

Is this your new get out clause? Criticise the "left" and selectively use groups to provide cherrypicked examples?

Tony EH

Nodin wrote: »

The figure of four million was placed up there by the communist regime. Few took it seriously and when the communists went, so did the plaque.

Norfolk Enchants wrote: »

But six million figure remained. Before the plaque, while the plaque was up and after it was taken down.

Nodin wrote: »

.....people didn't add up the numbers written on various plaques to get to six million. The figure written on the Auschwitz one was post-war propaganda by the communist regime. It has nothing to do with the overall figure put forward by scholars and never had.

Actually, this isn't the case. There were many historians, in the west, who frequently used the 4 million Auschwitz figure. Martin Gilbert, the foremost "holocaust historian" in Britain and beloved by all who study such used it in his book 'Auschwitz and the Allies' and I do recall reading other examples as well.

But after the plaques came down, there was suddenly "nobody" who "ever believed"...

I'm old enough to remember all the noise about the release of the Auschwitz "death books" and the lowering of the figure. I'm also old enough to remember the moment the Auschwitz museum were forced to actually label the "gas chamber" shown to tourists at the end of the tour as a "reconstruction", even though throughout previous decades tour guides passed it off a the real McCoy.

However, the real problem here is that we have an historical event (or series of historical events, it's not monolithic) that has been deliberately shrouded in dogma and smoke-screened with mantras. 6 Million this...Auszhwitz that...holocaust denier and anti-Semite...and anything that has that kind of ra-ra, footstomping, fingerpointing asociated with it is naturally going to draw suspicious looks from a lot of people, the vast majority of whom would have no stake, side, or position in the matter.

It's funny, when reading who is supposed to qualify as a "denier" that one comes across the segment saying that to reduce the 6 million figure is tantamount to "denying" the holocaust, when in fact holocaust historians and historians of the entire war don't even agree on what the figure is. Raoul Hilberg (the foremost historian on the holocaust subject), who died recently, stated that he believed the figure was probably around 5 million or so. Under the current rules (made up out of wholecloth by Richard Evens at the Irving trial), that makes Hilberg a "holocaust denier". Other scholars suggest that it's around 4 million and less. And these people aren't the much touted "denier" boogymen. They're historians that have been in the game for decades.

At the end of the day, anything that's ironcast in a tomb of "just believe or else" SHOULD be questioned and if there are people shouing at you, or calling for you to be imprisioned for your opinons, then their motives should be questioned as well.

An Coilean

Haelium wrote: »

People who question creationism generally happen to have extreme secular politics or are nihilists, or both.

Also commonsense. Not quite so true of those who question the holocaust.

pmrozik

Okay, for all those who want to question the Holocaust - I'm from Poland.

My late grandfather's brother was killed in Oswiecim (Auschwitz). My aunt went to great lengths to retrieve all the documentation from the museum. I've been there. For those of you who have any doubts, fly on over to Krakow and see the museum. Oh, and there are more of them.

My grandfather wasn't Jewish, but grew up in a predominantly Jewish area of Lublin. He used to tell stories about how many of his friends were lined up and taken away. People simply disappeared.

Those who helped protect Jews were also sent away. Some risked their lives, some contacted the Nazis to let them know there was a Jew in the area.

Does the Holocaust get more coverage than the Armenian genocide? Yes, it certainly does, but please - learn your history.

Seaneh

pmrozik wrote: »

Okay, for all those who want to question the Holocaust - I'm from Poland.

My late grandfather's brother was killed in Oswiecim (Auschwitz). My aunt went to great lengths to retrieve all the documentation from the museum. I've been there. For those of you who have any doubts, fly on over to Krakow and see the museum. Oh, and there are more of them.

My grandfather wasn't Jewish, but grew up in a predominantly Jewish area of Lublin. He used to tell stories about how many of his friends were lined up and taken away. People simply disappeared.

Those who helped protect Jews were also sent away. Some risked their lives, some contacted the Nazis to let them know there was a Jew in the area.

Does the Holocaust get more coverage than the Armenian genocide? Yes, it certainly does, but please - learn your history.

I don't think anyone in this thread, besides one person who was banned quickly for posing anti-semitic crap and videos of neo-nazi's spouting nonsense.

pmrozik

Seaneh wrote: »

I don't think anyone in this thread, besides one person who was banned quickly for posing anti-semitic crap and videos of neo-nazi's spouting nonsense.

Sure hope so.