All Blacks Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread

Swiwi · 30-05-2013 11:49pm

totallegend wrote: »

I'm sorry but I don't buy any of this.

OK, Fijian people can't pay the same money for tickets as Irish people and the TV deal won't be as attractive, but never to have played there is/was a deliberate policy decision, pure and simple. If paying player salaries is the issue, why did they never travel in the amateur days?

According to Wikipedia, the stadium in Suva holds 30,000 people. It would be packed to the rafters.

It doesn't have to be the absolute first-choice XV, but a capped international would be a gesture at least, a "thanks for populating our team over the years".

The "only so many tests" argument is also bollocks, given that they manage to squeeze in tests outside the window for England or Wales, the Bledisloe Cup is now a best-of-nine-games series and now we hear talk of a test in Japan before they come to Europe in November.

Podge_irl wrote: »

Fiji is possibly a bad example as the political situation there is part of the reason the ABs avoid it.

Yeah, in regards to Fiji politics has really come into in recent years. I'm not going to go thru the whole spiel AGAIN (sigh) of explaining that the vast majority of Pacific Island ABs were actually born and raised in NZ and are legitimate Kiwis, just because they're brown doesn't automatically make them not NZers...what I will say is that England in particular has far more poached PI players than the ABs. If we look at the Lions we have Faletau & Tualagi & Vunipola, and no-one accuses the Lions of poaching PIs. Anyone, that's enough of a rant, sorry totallegend!

totallegend · 31-05-2013 12:00am

Podge_irl wrote: »

Fiji is possibly a bad example as the political situation there is part of the reason the ABs avoid it.

The NZRU are sending a 'Classic All Blacks' team to Fiji this summer, so that argument doesn't hold water either I'm afraid.

Plus, the military dictatorship, while admittedly not great, only took over in 2006.

I'm not saying the ABs are the only offenders in this regard, I thought it was absolutely shameful that Ireland didn't allow Fiji the respect of a capped international in Autumn 2012, but I just think it would do wonders for development of the game in Fiji/Samoa. And that's why it won't happen.

Swiwi · 31-05-2013 12:02am

totallegend wrote: »

The NZRU are sending a 'Classic All Blacks' team to Fiji this summer, so that argument doesn't hold water either I'm afraid.

Plus, the military dictatorship, while admittedly not great, only took over in 2006.

I'm not saying the ABs are the only offenders in this regard, I thought it was absolutely shameful that Ireland didn't allow Fiji the respect of a capped international in Autumn 2012, but I just think it would do wonders for development of the game in Fiji/Samoa. And that's why it won't happen.

Yeah, I agree more could be done for the PIs, although you could argue that players like Kahn Fotuali learn their trade in the SXV then scoop big money offers overseas, and help make Samoa a much better side than in the past.

totallegend · 31-05-2013 12:08am

Swiwi wrote: »

Yeah, in regards to Fiji politics has really come into in recent years. I'm not going to go thru the whole spiel AGAIN (sigh) of explaining that the vast majority of Pacific Island ABs were actually born and raised in NZ and are legitimate Kiwis, just because they're brown doesn't automatically make them not NZers...what I will say is that England in particular has far more poached PI players than the ABs. If we look at the Lions we have Faletau & Tualagi & Vunipola, and no-one accuses the Lions of poaching PIs. Anyone, that's enough of a rant, sorry totallegend!

Dude, I'd be a serious hypocrite to be criticising anyone for a rant. And in fairness, I won't be giving out about Richardt Strauss playing against the ABs in November so it's a grey area alright.

Just doing a bit of googling there and I see that Sivivatu played for the Pacific Islands team in 2004, thought that would have disqualified him from NZ since they were full international tests (but obviously not).

Swiwi · 31-05-2013 12:14am

totallegend wrote: »

Dude, I'd be a serious hypocrite to be criticising anyone for a rant. And in fairness, I won't be giving out about Richardt Strauss playing against the ABs in November so it's a grey area alright.

Just doing a bit of googling there and I see that Sivivatu played for the Pacific Islands team in 2004, thought that would have disqualified him from NZ since they were full international tests (but obviously not).

Yeah, I think Sione Lauaki did the same. I think everyone agreed playing for the Pacific Lions wouldn't exclude them from playing for NZ. I don't like the rules at the moment, the way Nacewa is ruled out by 20 seconds or whatever it was all those years ago, and then Strauss as you say or Payne can be Irish after just 3 years - I don't have a problem with it, but I just wonder if maybe 4 years is a bit more reasonable. There are a lot of Kiwis living in Aussie, opening up AB eligibility to the Aussie SXV franchises would be mighty handy.

duckysauce · 31-05-2013 12:17am

Swiwi wrote: »

Yeah, I agree more could be done for the PIs, although you could argue that players like Kahn Fotuali learn their trade in the SXV then scoop big money offers overseas, and help make Samoa a much better side than in the past.

Its not the Samoan players that are the problem, it is the Samoan rfu that screwed them over and this was evident in the last world cup-- alot of players left after that, bans or whatever , they are a major force now the AIs against them will be interesting, depending on the team they send over.

Swiwi · 31-05-2013 12:22am

duckysauce wrote: »

Its not the Samoan players that are the problem, it is the Samoan rfu that screwed them over and this was evident in the last world cup-- alot of players left after that, bans or whatever , they are a major force now the AIs against them will be interesting, depending on the team they send over.

I know I'm diverging slightly from this being an AB thread, but Schmidt provides a tenuous link...it's not inconceivable that Ireland could be 0-3 at the end of the AIs, and still have played really well. I know it's hard to cop losses, but if Schmidt can give Ireland a demonstrable gameplan, with an attacking mindset, and appropriate selection choices it wouldn't be all bad. Samoa are a pretty handy unit these days, and of course NZ & Aussie are always in the top 5 Nations so it's a really tough run of games to start his official tenure.

Podge_irl · 31-05-2013 12:31am

Swiwi wrote: »

I know I'm diverging slightly from this being an AB thread, but Schmidt provides a tenuous link...it's not inconceivable that Ireland could be 0-3 at the end of the AIs, and still have played really well. I know it's hard to cop losses, but if Schmidt can give Ireland a demonstrable gameplan, with an attacking mindset, and appropriate selection choices it wouldn't be all bad. Samoa are a pretty handy unit these days, and of course NZ & Aussie are always in the top 5 Nations so it's a really tough run of games to start his official tenure.

Sure don't you know Swiwi, Joe Schmidt lost the Leinster dressing room and should have been fired after losing 3 of his first 4 games in charge?

Swiwi. · 24-06-2013 12:34am

Insomnia is ruling the roost, so I might as well churn out a bit of post-French series analysis to keep the forum abreast of where I see the ABs at ahead of our meeting in November.

Firstly, still underwhelmed by the forwards, especially the backrow, which I'll review here. The sycophantic NZ media, as usual, hasn't really stopped to ask the hard Qs, but you would almost say France won the battle of the breakdown. I felt like an Irish fan under DK, the way Steven Luatua got maybe 5 or 10 minutes in the 3rd game of the series. Luatua seems a rare talent, and I reckon he could be world class. Victor Vito has never played particularly well for NZ, and I don't think ever will, it's time the selectors agreed, and even the papers are saying he might miss the 4N cut. I really like Liam Messam, in the sense he has stuck with NZ rugby, and copped his controversial omission from the RWC 2011 team on the chin. But for all his hard work, he's just not imposing enough.

Then there's Sam Cane. He might come right, but he's miles off McCaw at the moment. Thankfully Richie is back soon. He could even play some stage at 6. I think for any fan of rugby (Kiwi or not), how McCaw fares when he comes back is intriguing. If it's a raging success, look for sabbaticals to be handed out like lolliwater, if he seems past it, they might rapidly become a rugby anachronism, much like "rest & rotation". My money is on the former, he's not that old yet at 32. I would have no problem with Ardie Savea getting a wee run on the end of year tour.

Read is fine, although his hands weren't great in the weekend.

Luatua/McCaw/Read = a confident LVR, hopefully this is what will grace the Aviva, and I am genuinely interested to see what Schmidt goes with for Ireland, there are the usual suspects away on Lions duty, but maybe that 7 from Munster Tommy O'Donnell might get an elevation, although I've barely seen him play myself (HEC knockout stages from memory).

If I can be arsed, I might post more during the week...

ScissorPaperRock · 24-06-2013 1:46am

Le vieux renard wrote: »

Luatua/McCaw/Read = a confident LVR, hopefully this is what will grace the Aviva, and I am genuinely interested to see what Schmidt goes with for Ireland, there are the usual suspects away on Lions duty, but maybe that 7 from Munster Tommy O'Donnell might get an elevation, although I've barely seen him play myself (HEC knockout stages from memory).

Yeah it'll be really interesting to see how McCaw performs when he's back.

Can't see TOD being called up vs Aus and NZ, barring injuries. I do wonder whether/how Henry will figure in Schmidt's plans though.

I'm worried that these games might be just a little too soon for Ireland. I mean they'll really show us what we're made of, but it would be nice to have some 'less challenging' games to ease into the new systems.

Swiwi. · 26-07-2013 7:36pm

Jerome Kaino apparently has undergone stringent medical with the Blues.

Swiwi. · 28-07-2013 7:26pm

ABs training squad for The Best The Original The One and Only Rugby Championship (irony...)

Forwards
Hookers: Dane Coles, Andrew Hore and Keven Mealamu.
Props: Wyatt Crockett, Charlie Faumuina, Ben Franks, Owen Franks and Tony Woodcock.
Locks: Luke Romano, Jeremy Thrush and Samuel Whitelock.
Loose Forwards: Steven Luatua, Richie McCaw, Kieran Read, Brad Shields, Matt Todd and Victor Vito.

Backs
Halfbacks: TJ Perenara, Aaron Smith and Piri Weepu.
First five-eighths: Beauden Barrett and Daniel Carter.
Midfielders: Ma'a Nonu, Rene Ranger, Francis Saili and Conrad Smith.
Outside backs: Israel Dagg, Charles Piutau, Julian Savea and Ben Smith.

With the Chiefs: Ben Afeaki, Sam Cane, Aaron Cruden, Tawera Kerr-Barlow, Liam Messam, Brodie Retallick.

Dropped: Frank Halai, Tom Taylor
Headed overseas: Ali Williams, Hosea Gear
Injured: Jeffrey Toomaga-Allen, Dominic Bird

That's 36 players including the Chiefs, and 8 will be omitted when the final squad is announced.

Not too long until the 4N, which should make for good viewing - including for the neutral fans - with the likely return of QC, and a chance for Argentina to pick up a first scalp at home (or away).

Hagz · 28-07-2013 11:49pm

Who do you think will be the NZ centre partnership for the next world cup?

I expect SBW will come back.

Swiwi. · 29-07-2013 6:56am

Hagz wrote: »

Who do you think will be the NZ centre partnership for the next world cup?

Short answer: SBW & C.Smith

Long answer: I agree SBW is highly likely to return from league. He is a sporting mercenary and the chance to showcase his talents and increase his image rights, value etc in front of a world-wide TV audience will prove irresistible. There is no way he will be playing rugby in NZ in 2016, though. But despite the above, he is a fine player, and his off-loading game suits the ABs.

Conrad Smith should still be there, although he is taking a sabbatical after the 4N, so won't be seen on the end of year tour, which adds some spice in itself.

Other options at 12: Nonu, but the SXV have been in a stampede to ignore him for 2014, and at present he doesn't have a SXV franchise for next season. The other possibilities from what I've seen are the Blues' Francis Saili, and the Chiefs Bundee Aki. I also like the Chiefs Andrew Horrell, but don't think he's on the radar.

Other options at 13: B Smith has been touted. NZ has an ignominious record of taking world-class (Cullen, Muliania) or very good (MacDonald) FBs and moving them to 13 just in time for another RWC flop. So I'd want B Smith to have a prolonged run at 13 before I'd be convinced. Otherwise, Crotty at the Crusaders (but I'm not convinced), I think Ranger can't get back from France, and then there's not too much else at present. Kahui is off to Japan, and in any case he is as injury-prone as Stephen Ferris.

As an aside, I have been impressed with the Brumbies Kuridrani this season, so at long last that gives Aussie another option besides AAC.

Hagz · 02-08-2013 5:31pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0QnMb6mwe7I

Swiwi. · 03-08-2013 8:36am

Rene Ranger has withdrawn from the 4N. Will play for Northland in the ITM cup, before joining Montpellier.

Swiwi. · 04-08-2013 8:10am

ALL BLACKS SQUAD

Props: Tony Woodcock, Wyatt Crockett, Ben Franks, Owen Franks, Charlie Faumuina, Joe Moody (injury cover)
Hookers: Andrew Hore, Keven Mealamu, Dane Coles
Locks: Sam Whitelock, Brodie Retallick, Luke Romano
Loose-forwards: Richie McCaw, Kieran Read, Liam Messam, Sam Cane, Steven Luatua
Halfbacks: Aaron Smith, Tawera Kerr-Barlow, TJ Perenara
First-fives: Dan Carter, Aaron Cruden, Beauden Barrett
Midfield: Conrad Smith, Ma'a Nonu,
Outside backs: Israel Dagg, Julian Savea, Ben Smith, Charles Piutau
Training squad members: Jeremy Thrush, Francis Saili, Frank Halai

I guess the main points are no Piri Weepu, no Victor Vito, and no midfield depth. Weepu has been skating on thin ice for some time, and I'm glad Perenara got the nod. I'd be interested to know what anyone who watches SXV thinks of Kerr-Barlow - he's not that great IMO.

Veto has never risen to test-match standard, and I'm not sure we see him in Black again, barring injuries. Brad Shields might come into the reckoning at some stage. Losing Rene Ranger is mighty unfortunate, and if SBW doesn't come back, then Saili and maybe Bundee Aki will need to step up. I thought Aki was good again when he came on in the SXV final.

Otherwise, I never understand the appeal of Faumuina I would have gone with Ben Afeaki.

I'd be genuinely interested in any comments from forum members, I guess much of this squad is what ye will face at the Aviva in November.

danthefan · 04-08-2013 9:03am

I wish I had have seen more of the S15 this season because there's too many players there that I just don't know enough about. Obviously there's a very good starting XV in there. Do you think there's still the same depth there that NZ teams in previous years had?

Swiwi. · 04-08-2013 9:24am

danthefan wrote: »

I wish I had have seen more of the S15 this season because there's too many players there that I just don't know enough about. Obviously there's a very good starting XV in there. Do you think there's still the same depth there that NZ teams in previous years had?

The depth has changed. At the moment NZ is very well served at prop, halfback, and flyhalf for example, but there is still no definite new hooker on the scene (not convinced by Coles yet), and the midfield (esp 13) is precarious with the loss of SBW, Richard Kahui, Tamati Ellison, and Rene Ranger. Outside Conrad Smith, there is no proven 13, and with Smith skipping the end of year tour, this is a real opportunity for sides like Ireland to target the midfield.

I think we still have a good smattering of world class players, in particular I reckon Sam Whitelock is fast turning into the best 5 in world rugby.

Both Ireland and NZ need to find long-term replacements for Darcy/BOD and Nonu/Smith respectively, although I am hopeful SBW will return to NZ.

danthefan · 04-08-2013 10:35am

Ireland aren't exactly stacked in the midfield either, in fact we're in almost the exact same position as NZ except Smith is about 3 years younger than BOD. We've no backup to BOD at all worth a damn tbh.

Tox56 · 04-08-2013 10:43am

danthefan wrote: »

Ireland aren't exactly stacked in the midfield either, in fact we're in almost the exact same position as NZ except Smith is about 3 years younger than BOD. We've no backup to BOD at all worth a damn tbh.

I don't like it and I'm sure many Kiwis don't like it either, but Jared Payne will be the outstanding option when he qualifies, presuming he sees his future with Ireland.

Clareman · 04-08-2013 10:49am

danthefan wrote: »

Ireland aren't exactly stacked in the midfield either, in fact we're in almost the exact same position as NZ except Smith is about 3 years younger than BOD. We've no backup to BOD at all worth a damn tbh.

Cave was playing some brilliant stuff and I have I hope that when BoD hangs up the boots that Cave will be given the chance, he's been unlucky in that he's an out and out 13 and he's up against the best 13 ever.

With Piri out there isn't many people left to lead the Haka, isn't there some rule that whoever leads it has to be of Maori descent?

Swiwi. · 04-08-2013 1:00pm

Tox56 wrote: »

I don't like it and I'm sure many Kiwis don't like it either, but Jared Payne will be the outstanding option when he qualifies, presuming he sees his future with Ireland.

Ah, I'm not worried, NZ will find someone...just as long as it doesn't involve moving Dagg to 13...because that type of plan has worked a real treat in the past...

I'd be surprised if Payne abandoned Ireland when he's on the cusp of qualifying...maybe the possible lure of RWC 2015 & Lions 2017 might tempt him back to NZ, but on the other hand he could achieve those goals in Irish colours anyway.

Nah, I think Payne will be all yours, and I agree he seems the best option. I haven't seen too much of Cave, but from memory he wasn't great in the 3rd test in NZ, not that he was particualry unique in this regard

CatFromHue · 04-08-2013 1:02pm

Messam can if he's in the squad.

Swiwi. · 04-08-2013 1:03pm

Clareman wrote: »

With Piri out there isn't many people left to lead the Haka, isn't there some rule that whoever leads it has to be of Maori descent?

Probably Liam Messam, I guess. Actually, a fair chunk of Kiwis have some Maori blood in them somewhere, Christian Cullen famously made a comeback via the Maori team, despite being pasty white. I'm not even sure of the exact qualifying rules for the Maori team, Cullen was 1/16 from memory.

Swan Curry · 04-08-2013 1:09pm

Didn't Riki Flutey play for them by being 1/64th Maori?

Swiwi. · 04-08-2013 1:15pm

Swan Curry wrote: »

Didn't Riki Flutey play for them by being 1/64th Maori?

Not sure of the exact "amount". I'm not even sure if it comes down to blood these days. For some things in NZ, if you identify as being Maori (if that's what you "feel" you are), then you can consider yourself Maori (eg on the census, I think).

It is actually a weird thing to define, and I don't like the idea of categorising people by the amount of a certain bloodline in them, it's bordering on all sorts of unpleasantness.

Tox56 · 04-08-2013 3:49pm

Le vieux renard wrote: »

Nah, I think Payne will be all yours, and I agree he seems the best option. I haven't seen too much of Cave, but from memory he wasn't great in the 3rd test in NZ, not that he was particualry unique in this regard

Cave wasn't in the squad for that game so I can see why he didn't make much of an impression! He had a great game in the 2012 H Cup final but played a grand total of 8 minutes on the New Zealand tour just a few weeks later, which pretty much sums up how he was treated under the previous regime. His form has dipped recently and with the young centres coming through at Ulster he might have missed the boat, unfortunately for him.

the baby bull elephant · 04-08-2013 6:32pm

Le vieux renard wrote: »

The depth has changed. At the moment NZ is very well served at prop, halfback, and flyhalf for example, but there is still no definite new hooker on the scene (not convinced by Coles yet), and the midfield (esp 13) is precarious with the loss of SBW, Richard Kahui, Tamati Ellison, and Rene Ranger. Outside Conrad Smith, there is no proven 13, and with Smith skipping the end of year tour, this is a real opportunity for sides like Ireland to target the midfield.

I think we still have a good smattering of world class players, in particular I reckon Sam Whitelock is fast turning into the best 5 in world rugby.

Both Ireland and NZ need to find long-term replacements for Darcy/BOD and Nonu/Smith respectively, although I am hopeful SBW will return to NZ.

Two words for 13: Ben Smith.

Swiwi. · 04-08-2013 7:43pm

the baby bull elephant wrote: »

Two words for 13: Ben Smith.

To which I might reply with other 2 words: Christian Cullen, Leon MacDonald, Mils Muliaina.

I'm not against the idea, but in that case I'd like to see him play all of the end of year internationals at 13, not a 15 minute run or so from time to time.

I think 13 is easy enough offensively if you're a gifted player, but it's on defence that the best 13s make their mark, and it takes time to learn that.

I think Ben Smith is a class 15, but he's going to end up at 14 for the Rugby Championship (due to Dagg) where he's good, but no Cory Jane. So if he can convert to 13 that would be very handy. NZ is never short of good 15s, aside Dagg, Piutau is also very good, and there are plenty of others who I am sure could make the step up if needed, even Cory Jane prefers 15.

All Blacks Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread

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